or halfway down a run.dante said:I think its worth it just so that you don't have to spend 15min squinting trying to see whether your 50mm stem is on straight, and then realizing 2 weeks later that its not. ink:
dante said:I think its worth it just so that you don't have to spend 15min squinting trying to see whether your 50mm stem is on straight, and then realizing 2 weeks later that its not. ink:
So, DW, what are your thoughts on this? Having designed the e13 stem im sure you know about the forces involved more so then others in this thread.Cave Dweller said:So far its all e-speculation, thats why it would be nice to hear from the designer of an integrated stem what his thoughts are on the matter.
Well you still need 4 bolts to attach the top of the stem down...EVRAC said:Why not make a "bolt-on" stem truely integrated by incorporating the lower half of the bar clamp right into the upper crown? Saves the weight of 4 bolts, way stronger, lighter and lower.
Hmmm, me thinks I see a new viable aftermarket product.
or just glue it on. Elmers wood glue is best :hot:Transcend said:Well you still need 4 bolts to attach the top of the stem down...
I have heard pritt stick is pretty good tooatrokz said:or just glue it on. Elmers wood glue is best :hot:
Transcend said:Well you still need 4 bolts to attach the top of the stem down...
Naw they got that covered. They'd just sell you a new crown for $99 everytime you wanted to change the reach.DIRTWRKS said:Not to mention that it would be impossible to adjust the length /reach either !
wasn't sic working on this?EVRAC said:Why not make a "bolt-on" stem truely integrated by incorporating the lower half of the bar clamp right into the upper crown? Saves the weight of 4 bolts, way stronger, lighter and lower.
Hmmm, me thinks I see a new viable aftermarket product.
Bump it up for an answer...........Cave Dweller said:So, DW, what are your thoughts on this? Having designed the e13 stem im sure you know about the forces involved more so then others in this thread.
Does running a bolt on stem increase the chances of damaging your fork.
'Cave Dweller said:Bump it up for an answer...........
My feeling is i will get no answer, if it increases the chances of damage your fork im doubting e13 will say anything........Udi said:Something tells me you're not going to get a straight answer here.
Dave works for e13, e13 make integrated stems, and not regular ones... ink:
Confused how? you seem to be dodging the issue here by not explaining it. We already realise integrated = stiffer and stronger, lighter is debatable with thomson offerings, however none of those factors are being discussed here.dw said:Anyone who tells you that your stem is going to "slip" on your steerer and somehow reduce forces is confused. Rock Shox developed the bolt on standard with stem makers becuase the engineers involved realized that a bolt on stem makes for a stiffer, stronger, and lighter interface. Same with Marzocchi.
Dude if you clip a tree at full race speed, your bars twisting your crowns is the least of your worries.bushrider said:When you clip a tree at full race pace thats a lot of force that neednt be transfered to the fork.
I have been waiting a week for someone to say it! These guys are talking like they clip a tree at race speed and keep on going with twisted bars, get real.Echo said:Dude if you clip a tree at full race speed, your bars twisting your crowns is the least of your worries.
I'm picturing some dude laying on the ground with a crushed hand, separated shoulder, broken frame, tacoed front wheel, and cracked helmet, saying "dang, I cracked my lower crown!"Transcend said:I have been waiting a week for someone to say it! These guys are talking like they clip a tree at race speed and keep on going with twisted bars, get real.
Confused in that its not realistic. If your stem is twisting, its not tight enough. That simple. If it is tight enough, then its diretly linked to your lower crown through your steerer.Udi said:Confused how? you seem to be dodging the issue here by not explaining it. We already realise integrated = stiffer and stronger, lighter is debatable with thomson offerings, however none of those factors are being discussed here.
I for one DO run a direct mount stem on my downhill bike, but being open minded about the matter I can see (and have seen) how a regular stem can exert less twisting force on a fork when the handlebars and wheel take an impact in a crash. Something's gotta give.
exactlyTranscend said:I have been waiting a week for someone to say it! These guys are talking like they clip a tree at race speed and keep on going with twisted bars, get real.
Well, I suppose it depends. I hit many trees (and other objects) during race runs. And yep - most put me down hard. And usually twisted the stem as well. And without tools, I wasn't putting it back straight... but the fork survived unscathed... I'm not convinced a direct-mount stem wouldn't have twisted the fork to the point of breaking... IMO it's less about continuing with the race run and more about surviving to race another day with minimal damage to the bike. The "backmarker's motto."Transcend said:I have been waiting a week for someone to say it! These guys are talking like they clip a tree at race speed and keep on going with twisted bars, get real.
I guess I'm just blissfully confused. True story: my clamp-on stem slipped on my (single crown, bla bla bla) fork due to a spill. It was pretty tight to begin with, but I figured hey, if it slipped it must not be tight enough. So I tightened it a bit more. Strangest thing happened: the treads in the stem stripped... And it wasn't some pos, I think an arguement could be made that Deity makes some good stuff. (I'm not mentioning them as a slam, because I was a return customer even after that happened. I'm just carefull now when it comes to tightening a stem up. I know that I can't hulk out on it like I can on my heavier Standard (bmx) stem.)dw said:Confused in that its not realistic. If your stem is twisting, its not tight enough. That simple. If it is tight enough, then its diretly linked to your lower crown through your steerer.
Like the other guys said though, If you crash that hard, that fast, you are going ht have a LOT more to think abou than if something is twisted.
Dave
Transcend said:I have been waiting a week for someone to say it! These guys are talking like they clip a tree at race speed and keep on going with twisted bars, get real.
But thats not what the question is, please read back.dw said:exactly
It sounded to me like the answer is that they are a good idea, and the people with actual knowledge about the subject tried to dispel some of the questionable theories being thrown around by people who are convinced that because their stem moved in a crash, they somehow avoided cracking their fork lowers. Sounds like people aren't getting the answer they want to hear, so they keep arguing.Cave Dweller said:it seems to me the issue is being dodged, i don't at all feel the question has been answered, a simple yes or no would do it.
I do. And I crash.Rik said:How many people here tighten up their brake/gear levers so much they can't move in a crash?
Nah, answers have been slanted towards them being a better idea for stiffness and keeping bars straight for a race run, nothing i didn't know already. From what i have read jungles original post is still to be answered.Echo said:It sounded to me like the answer is that they are a good idea, and the people with actual knowledge about the subject tried to dispel some of the questionable theories being thrown around by people who are convinced that because their stem moved in a crash, they somehow avoided cracking their fork lowers. Sounds like people aren't getting the answer they want to hear, so they keep arguing.
A lot of it is emotional comfort level, pure and simple, which is rarely based in logic. Let's face it, if the decisions were based on some logical determination of which bikes performed best, we'd all be riding the same bikes.Echo said:Sounds like people aren't getting the answer they want to hear, so they keep arguing.
If personal experiences are what determines the answer, I crashed hard enough this year to trash my wrist and take me off the bike for a couple months, my bike has an integrated stem, and my fork didn't break.
So you think some of these theories are questionable? Seriously, how would you know? Is it that because the answer you believe comes from one certain person do you just blindly take it as Truth. Did you ever think that maybe the people who's theory you question may know something about the issue? This isn't something that you have to be a bicycle engineer to figure out. It's pretty basic stuff. Friction versus direct. How exactly can you tell who has the knowledge to dispel the subject at hand? That sucks that you broke your wrist, and believe me many of us have been there; it's great that the fork didn't break. Unfortunately, I'm certain that's not the issue. The issue is: Is it possible that a direct mount stem could theoretically cause more damage than a clamp on stem in certain crashes? Some say no, there is no way that can be the case, both are exactly the same. What is being argued is that the are not both exactly the same.Echo said:It sounded to me like the answer is that they are a good idea, and the people with actual knowledge about the subject tried to dispel some of the questionable theories being thrown around by people who are convinced that because their stem moved in a crash, they somehow avoided cracking their fork lowers. Sounds like people aren't getting the answer they want to hear, so they keep arguing.
If personal experiences are what determines the answer, I crashed hard enough this year to trash my wrist and take me off the bike for a couple months, my bike has an integrated stem, and my fork didn't break.
trust4130 said:The issue is: Is it possible that a direct mount stem could theoretically cause more damage than a clamp on stem in certain crashes? Some say no, there is no way that can be the case, both are exactly the same. What is being argued is that the are not both exactly the same.