[Capt. Jack Sparrow]

I work in a Federal office building just outside of D.C. that contains all the offices for an entire Federal agency (and nothing else. Not even a cafe.)

Why is it when I walk in and I see the building's daily schedule posted on the T.V. screen... why are there conference rooms reserved for "Bible Study"?

Doesn't this seem to violate the separation of Church and State?

 

[MMike]

I worked at a place in Bellingham WA and they had bible study at lunch time. That surprised me....

 

[fubar5]

Probably has to do with how you interpret the meaning of the seperation. If the rooms can be reserved for devil worship as well I think the principle is upheld. There is no one specific doctrine being enforced. Overall though this will be a pretty hairy, but jack sparrow is a hairy guy so I guess it all works out.

 

[N8 v2.0]

..and God is mentioned numerous times in our Constriction, Declaration of Independence and currency... who cares?

 

[brungeman]

I saw a great bumper sticker that said... something like...

"If religious groups want to get into politics, they should pay taxes!"

 

[MudGrrl]

OMGF in 5.....4........3.......

 

[MudGrrl]

btw, Captain Jack, did you see the bit about the DC churches and double parking?

Apparently, people are trying to make it ok for church goers to double park in the district if they are attending church.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

..and God is mentioned numerous times in our Constriction, Declaration of Independence and currency... who cares?

Check your facts.

The Declaration is NOT a legally binding document.
The Constitution has no mention of "god" except in the date which is written out as "In the year of our Lord" which was common practice back then.
Our currency did not have any mention of god until the Civil War, and even then it was not on all money until many years later.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

I work in a Federal office building just outside of D.C. that contains all the offices for an entire Federal agency (and nothing else. Not even a cafe.)

Why is it when I walk in and I see the building's daily schedule posted on the T.V. screen... why are there conference rooms reserved for "Bible Study"?

Doesn't this seem to violate the separation of Church and State?

If the conference rooms are available for all groups, religious and non-religious, then I think you would have a hard time convincing anyone that a violation of Church and State was taking place. In that case, they are seen as public rooms that are open to all, and a Bible study group just happens to be using them at that specific time.

If there is some sort of preference for the Bible study group over other groups, then there may be a problem. Or, if a government group that works in the building is promoting it or sponsoring it, then there could also be a problem.

 

[Capt. Jack Sparrow]

btw, Captain Jack, did you see the bit about the DC churches and double parking?

Apparently, people are trying to make it ok for church goers to double park in the district if they are attending church.

MudGrrl, I didn't see that. Once a friend and I got a moving truck stuck in D.C. (we were helping a friend move up from Louisiana) on a one-way street on a Sunday morning because people double-parked in front of a church. We couldn't go straight (and we couldn't go backwards since there was a bunch of cars behind us), so we tried to drive down an alley. Unfortunately, someone parked within a few feet of the alley (illegally), messing up our turning angle... and we ran over the hood of the parked car. It was a freaking nightmare. Cost us tons of money to fix that car. The driver of that car got a ticket for her bad parking job.

What a nightmare. That's why I choose churches in the suburbs.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

MudGrrl, I didn't see that. Once a friend and I got a moving truck stuck in D.C. (we were helping a friend move up from Louisiana) on a one-way street on a Sunday morning because people double-parked in front of a church. We couldn't go straight (and we couldn't go backwards since there was a bunch of cars behind us), so we tried to drive down an alley. Unfortunately, someone parked within a few feet of the alley (illegally), messing up our turning angle... and we ran over the hood of the parked car. It was a freaking nightmare. Cost us tons of money to fix that car. The driver of that car got a ticket for her bad parking job.

What a nightmare. That's why I choose churches in the suburbs.

You choose churches in the suburbs to run over cars??

Church of Monster Truck Sundays!!! Rock on!

 

[MudGrrl]

yeah... and the suburbs around here aren't exactly poor, so Capt. Jack's squashin' H3s and BMW X5s.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Check your facts.

The Constitution has no mention of "god".. blah blah blah

Uhh... not very observent are you?

I said "Constriction" not Constitution.

 

[llkoolkeg]

If the conference rooms are available for all groups, religious and non-religious, then I think you would have a hard time convincing anyone that a violation of Church and State was taking place. In that case, they are seen as public rooms that are open to all, and a Bible study group just happens to be using them at that specific time.

If there is some sort of preference for the Bible study group over other groups, then there may be a problem. Or, if a government group that works in the building is promoting it or sponsoring it, then there could also be a problem.

When you and Cap'n Jack use the term "violate", to what code do you refer? "Separation of church & state" is a constitutional principle based mostly on the establishment and free exercise clauses of the 1st Amendment...not a law.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Uhh... not very observent are you?

I said "Constriction" not Constitution.

Not my fault you can't spell.

 

[RhinofromWA]

The simple existance of a bible study group is not the government imposing one religion on it's masses. Kinda what the whole Seperation of Church and state was created for I beleive. Avoiding a governmently run and imposed religion....all others be damned. Not quite the same having an independant bible study group borrowing a room now is it?

I swear.....(i do from time to time lol )

Seperation of church and state, bah! (no, not BAH the member )

 

[Old Man G Funk]

When you and Cap'n Jack use the term "violate", to what code do you refer? "Separation of church & state" is a constitutional principle based mostly on the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment...not a law.

The Constitution is our basis for law. You can "violate" the First Amendment restriction on mixing church and state. The Supreme Court has enumerated many cases of this in on-going case law examples. The law is shaped by what is written in the Bill of Rights and how that law has been interpreted in the courts.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

The simple existance of a bible study group is not the government imposing one religion on it's masses. Kinda what the whole Seperation of Church and state was created for I beleive. Avoiding a governmently run and imposed religion....all others be damned. Not quite the same having an independant bible study group borrowing a room now is it?

I swear.....(i do from time to time lol )

Seperation of church and state, bah! (no, not BAH the member )

What you are missing is the advocacy. The gov. should technically not advocate for any religion over another or over non-religion. If the gov. is setting up this Bible study in an unfair way over other religions or non-religions, then it runs afoul of the First Amendment.

 

[Capt. Jack Sparrow]

When you and Cap'n Jack use the term "violate", to what code do you refer? "Separation of church & state" is a constitutional principle based mostly on the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment...not a law.

Good point. What I was getting at in my initial post is that if way back when our forefathers decided to base part of the unique design of our new country on keeping Church and State separate... well, I just find it surprising to see Bible Study in a fed gov building.

My friends and I from high school held our Bible study in friends' homes or at church... we never had it at school nor did we think it was appropriate. Frankly, I wouldn't want the government doing their business in my church, either.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Good point. What I was getting at in my initial post is that if way back when our forefathers decided to base part of the unique design of our new country on keeping Church and State separate... well, I just find it surprising to see Bible Study in a fed gov building.

My friends and I from high school held our Bible study in friends' homes or at church... we never had it at school nor did we think it was appropriate. Frankly, I wouldn't want the government doing their business in my church, either.

No, not really a good point. It's a semantic nit pick that neither adds to the point nor detracts from it.

The Bill of Rights protects the rights of the people from the Federal Gov. (and state govs through the 14th amendment.) The word "violate" is completely valid in this situation because we may or may not have a case of the gov. violating our rights as citizens.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Well, what about the prayer before Congress opens, or the invocation before an air show on a military base, or the phrase 'so help me God' when being sworn in...???

I think one can reasonably expect a seperation of Church and State, but not an exclusion of religion and state.

 

[RhinofromWA]

What you are missing is the advocacy. The gov. should technically not advocate for any religion over another or over non-religion. If the gov. is setting up this Bible study in an unfair way over other religions or non-religions, then it runs afoul of the First Amendment.

Only if you pee sitting down.

j/k!

Use of a room for employees (or non employees) to discuss religion is not the same as the government advocating it.

I think the seperation of church and state bit is a little wacked right now anyway. I DON"T EVEN GO TO CHURCH nor do I care to sit in on a discussion group. If the military booted everyone out of the USA that wasn't (pick your religion) or made them second class citizens then that would be a SoCaS issue. If the judge goes "umm sorry you are really not guilty but because you are (pick a religion) I am going to have you make small rocks out of big rocks for 40 years.....SoCaS issue.

In my opinion (not that it is worth much), having a room set aside for employees (or anyone outside of a government employee) to come in and discuss religion (with their personal time) is not a cause for SoCaS.

 

[Ciaran]

Waaaahhhh.... Some christians are in my building and they arte PRAYING! OMG! Waaahhhh!

Get over it.

 

[llkoolkeg]

The Constitution is our basis for law

To be precise, the US Constitution and its amendments establish the basic structure and functions of the federal government. The Constitution grants certain specified rights- constitutional rights- to the American people and places limits on the powers and activities of our federal and state governments.

You can "violate" the First Amendment restriction on mixing church and state.

There is no 1st Amendment restriction on mixing church and state. That is something that the judicial branch has grabbed ahold of and run with.

The Supreme Court has enumerated many cases of this in on-going case law examples.

The Supreme Court has generally ruled in favor of the principle of church/state separation. Is that what you were trying to say?

The law is shaped by what is written in the Bill of Rights and how that law has been interpreted in the courts.

Many things shape our laws and you have correctly identified two of them.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Waaaahhhh.... Some christians are in my building and they arte PRAYING! OMG! Waaahhhh!

Get over it.

Thank you Captain Crusades..... You and your mace need to leave!

 

[N8 v2.0]

I'm jumping in for a free ride down to the P&WNed fourm!

 

[golgiaparatus]

T minus 10 seconds to blast off to Political Forum.

 

[llkoolkeg]

T minus 10 seconds to blast off to Political Forum.

No lie. I keep forgetting that I'm supposed to rein it in and not argue with people. It might almost be said that I'm...ahem...turning over a new leaf.

 

[Silver]

See if you can book a conference room for a Koran study session, or a stamp collecting discussion.

If they say no, then there is an issue.

 

[Jeremy R]

I am so glad that we have so many important religious threads here on RM. I mean this is a MOUNTAIN BIKE messageboard, and you guys that like to debate religion all day long on here are really making a monumental difference on our society!
Keep up the fantastic work!
Especially you guys that like to chicken peck at your keyboard all day long berating a God that you do not even believe in.
There has got to be something a little better to do.
A bike ride perhaps.....

 

[N8 v2.0]

I am so glad that we have so many important religious threads here on RM. I mean this is a MOUNTAIN BIKE messageboard, and you guys that like to debate religion all day long on here are really making a monumental difference on our society!
Keep up the fantastic work!
Especially you guys that like to chicken peck at your keyboard all day long berating a God that you do not even believe in.
There has got to be something a little better to do.
A bike ride perhaps.....

Moral Authority scares some people.. bad.

 

[Capt. Jack Sparrow]

See if you can book a conference room for a Koran study session, or a stamp collecting discussion.

If they say no, then there is an issue.

Hmmm. Yeah, there's just not a religion I feel like bringing into the workplace, so I won't even try, just for fun.

I wonder if the gov't runs out of office space they can just start having meetings in churches? It seems only fair that the gov't should ask/expect that if churchgoers are so bent on having religious meetings in gov't buildings.

 

[BurlyShirley]

If people would just quite bitching about things so benign as whether or not its legal for people to gather in certain conference rooms, the world would be a much better place.

The only thing I hate more than religious nuts are people who, for no real reason, decide to drum up some controversy for lack of leading an interesting life of their own.

Are they really bothering you? Get a ****ing life hippie.

 

[Capt. Jack Sparrow]

If people would just quite bitching about things so benign as whether or not its legal for people to gather in certain conference rooms, the world would be a much better place.

The only thing I hate more than religious nuts are people who, for no real reason, decide to drum up some controversy for lack of leading an interesting life of their own.

Are they really bothering you? Get a ****ing life hippie.

No, they don't bother me. I just thought it was interesting, so I pointed out. I didn't say I had a problem with it personally... the point of my post was to ask a group of people whether or not it seemed to go against something I always heard the gov't tried to maintain - separation.

As a Christian, there are tons of things that bother me, and other Christians meeting in a gov't building isn't one of them. I just think it's unusual and pointed it out.

Thanks for your charitable name-calling. Quite an example.

 

[BurlyShirley]

No, they don't bother me. I just thought it was interesting, so I pointed out. I didn't say I had a problem with it personally... the point of my post was to ask a group of people whether or not it seemed to go against something I always heard the gov't tried to maintain - separation.

As a Christian, there are tons of things that bother me, and other Christians meeting in a gov't building isn't one of them. I just think it's unusual and pointed it out.

Thanks for your charitable name-calling. Quite an example.

Well now you got me all riled up, just to deflate me that fast?

Dammit!

 

[narlus]

..and God is mentioned numerous times in our Constriction, Declaration of Independence and currency... who cares?

ok, i'll bite...what is a 'Constriction'? is that related to the painful malady rush experiences when he's OD'd on viagra?

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Well, what about the prayer before Congress opens

I disagree with it, but unfortunately for me the courts do not. That does not make it right. Congress has tried to differ the prayers to some extent, however, and also to make the non-sectarian.

or the invocation before an air show on a military base

Should not be allowed, and the AF has been in trouble lately for being overly religious.

or the phrase 'so help me God' when being sworn in...???

Again, I disagree, but the court disagrees with me. The case could be made for this one, however, that it is simply an affirmation of the individual, not the state. So, I would not have to utter that phrase if I were being sworn in.

I think one can reasonably expect a seperation of Church and State, but not an exclusion of religion and state.

That is the only way to have true separation.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Only if you pee sitting down.

j/k!

Use of a room for employees (or non employees) to discuss religion is not the same as the government advocating it.

I think the seperation of church and state bit is a little wacked right now anyway. I DON"T EVEN GO TO CHURCH nor do I care to sit in on a discussion group. If the military booted everyone out of the USA that wasn't (pick your religion) or made them second class citizens then that would be a SoCaS issue. If the judge goes "umm sorry you are really not guilty but because you are (pick a religion) I am going to have you make small rocks out of big rocks for 40 years.....SoCaS issue.

In my opinion (not that it is worth much), having a room set aside for employees (or anyone outside of a government employee) to come in and discuss religion (with their personal time) is not a cause for SoCaS.

Seeing as how I don't know how the room is used, I can only speak hypothetically.

Having a room set aside to discuss religious issues may be one thing. Having a room set aside to discuss the Bible is something else. That is explicit use of tax payer money to subsidize the furthering of one religion.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

Waaaahhhh.... Some christians are in my building and they arte PRAYING! OMG! Waaahhhh!

Get over it.

And I would never advocate telling them they can't pray. Quit trying to change the argument. You're trying to frame the argument as if I'm trying to do away with all prayer. That's the furthest from the truth. I'm trying to make sure that all Americans are free to pray or not pray as they so choose with NO coersion from the gov.

 

[Old Man G Funk]

To be precise, the US Constitution and its amendments establish the basic structure and functions of the federal government. The Constitution grants certain specified rights- constitutional rights- to the American people and places limits on the powers and activities of our federal and state governments.

Exactly. And one of those limits is the power of the government to coerce us into any particular religion, or any religion at all for that matter.

Edit: Oh, and the Constitution is the highest law of the land.

There is no 1st Amendment restriction on mixing church and state. That is something that the judicial branch has grabbed ahold of and run with.

Wrong. The original intent was to create a wall of separation between church and state as per Jefferson's words. The SCOTUS has simply been trying to uphold that distinction.

The Supreme Court has generally ruled in favor of the principle of church/state separation. Is that what you were trying to say?

The SCOTUS has become more and more in line with the principle of church state separation through the history of our country. To simply assert at any time in this country's history, however, that your right to freedom of religion can not be violated because it is not a law is simply incorrect.

Many things shape our laws and you have correctly identified two of them.

And you seem willing to blindly ignore them. Why? Is it because it satisfies your particular want at this moment? What happens when that turns against you? The only true freedom of religion for all Americans is when one is free to choose or not choose any religion and be completely free from government coersion on the subject.