[sleepinggiant]

Ok, I've heard how great VPP bikes ride, but no suspension design is perfect. I was woundering what the downsides to VPP are, like is there squating, jacking, pedal kick back, excessive chain growth/torque, ... etc etc. Thanks for the help.

And I only want to know the downsides, I already know the benefits of it. So I don't need a ton of posts saying "Its great blah blah get one blah blah"

BTW, I did do a search and it didn't turn up much on the downsides, just ppl raving about how good VPP is.

 

[quadricolour]

Brake jack.

 

[captainpolution]

you can get the floating brake for it ^^^^

BUT i have heard form some people that on like the V10 and the longer travel bikes with 4 inches of sag is that the good thing of having the VPP is the "S: motion it makes going through the travel. but with have that much sag takes the first part of the "S" out making it a "C" shape. SO this take all the pedaling effency away. but hey this is just what i heard, there is a big thread over on pinkbike about this

 

[sleepinggiant]

I was looking at the vp-free and I havent heard any complaints about brake jack. from what I understand, vpp isnt affecteb by brake jack, but i guess, in the negative travel, it has a "c" shaped axel path like a single pivot, so brake jack would be apparent

quadricolour, could you elaborate please

 

[Polytics]

I was looking at the vp-free and I havent heard any complaints about brake jack. from what I understand, vpp isnt affecteb by brake jack, but i guess, in the negative travel, it has a "c" shaped axel path like a single pivot, so brake jack would be apparent

quadricolour, could you elaborate please

Riding wise the brake jack isn't as apparent as a single pivot bike. But compared to a true, horst link, 4-bar design it is noticable. This is most apparent in the longer travel forms of the design (as opposed to the Blur).

Unless you are REALLY picky, a really heavy rear brake user, or really trying to shave seconds I don't think you'll find a floating rear brake neccesary.

That said, the overall benefits of the design vs. a four bar. I.E. Solid rear end (stiffer), larger bearings at all points (no little horst-link bearings), better pedaling, full length seat tubes (not a problem with Ellsworth, Turner, Devinci, KNolly etc), make them one of the best designs by virtue of having the least faults.

If you purchase a floating brake kit the VPP (or DW-link, or Maestro... yes I know they are all different) has the least faults of the available suspension designs and I suppose that makes it the best?

Of course in the end I ride a hardtail so what do I know

 

[thaflyinfatman]

They don't actually pedal that well IME (could that be because the marketing is BS? - rhetorical question, we know it is). Pretty overrated system IMO, doesn't really do anything that no other system does, nor does it really offer any awesome packaging (hard to keep chainstays short enough when you have the link down there).

 

[binary visions]

After my ride on the V10, I have to say, the pedalling didn't exactly blow me away (it wasn't bad, but all this raving about, "it pedals like a hardtail" is crap), and the suspension felt too mushy. I'm not that good about picking my lines, and having a bike like that would absolutely destroy any skill that I might gain in that department. Moving the bike from one line to another took a concerted effort and jumping it was very difficult.

Not my cup o' tea, anyway. Perhaps the shorter travel models don't suffer from that problem, but the V10 just seemed to wallow in its travel... which was great if you just wanted to mow your way to the bottom.

 

[quadricolour]

I demo'd a VP Free last summer for a full day at Mammoth. It definitely exhibited brake jack in the rough stuff - not a big deal for me, but many don't like it. I ride a high single pivot and love it, so obviously I don't find it to be a big problem. It pedaled pretty nicely for the 25 feet or so I actually had to ride uphill. The suspension did feel "mushy," like above poster states - it was too hard to pop the bike up out of its travel.

Bottom line - I felt the benefits of VPP weren't worth the increase in complexity. I haven't been on any other VPP models though.

 

[sleepinggiant]

cool. thanks a lot guys.

 

[Polytics]

The Blur pedals a lot better then the longer travel designs which is where most the hype comes from. My GF is riding a Trance (from Giant) with a longer travel fork this year and it pedals awesome.

With the longer travel VPP bikes a lot of how it pedals is going to depend on how you set up the platform shocks. 5th elements seem pretty complicated to get dialed but the VP-Free I spent some time on pedalled really well for a long travel bike.

The Giant Faith with Fox DHX pedals really well too. It doesn't pedal like a hardtail but it definitely doesn't pedal like a pig. The only beef I have with it is the interupted seat tube.

 

[Polytics]

I demo'd a VP Free last summer for a full day at Mammoth. It definitely exhibited brake jack in the rough stuff - not a big deal for me, but many don't like it. I ride a high single pivot and love it, so obviously I don't find it to be a big problem. It pedaled pretty nicely for the 25 feet or so I actually had to ride uphill. The suspension did feel "mushy," like above poster states - it was too hard to pop the bike up out of its travel.

Bottom line - I felt the benefits of VPP weren't worth the increase in complexity. I haven't been on any other VPP models though.

If I was buying an XC-Trail Bike I'd definitely consider a Blur. For a DH bike I'd buy a (slightly used) Balfa BB7 in a second (that is a high single pivot???). They pedal just as well as any other 8" travel bikes out there but use a mechanical means (chain pulley) instead of relying solely on shock technology.

It just sucks that (due to the nature of requiring the pulley) those bikes don't work with front deraillers. Although if you have the money I guess you can buy a Rolhoff.

 

[Kevin]

Maybee it doesnt pedal like a hardtail but its sure a hell of a lot better then my previous rig (8" bighit).
I actually had to do some climbing with it today which went pretty decent, especially when u consider its got almost 11 inches of travel.
And yes it does soak up everything in its path (which I thought was the whole ID anyways...) but its also really easy to throw around and slam it into corners.
I did find it a bit difficult to jump it in the beginning but Im getting used to it.
Only real downside Ive discovered so far is that my rear tire keeps hitting my seat and I dont want to raise the seat much cause it will be to high for me, but I guess thats not on the VPP to blame.
Ive also heard from a guy on MSN who owns a 05 v10 who has had a lot of flats and a friend of mine who rides an m3 (BadFastard on ridemonkey) whos had 2 flats last weekend on his first hours on the m3.
All things aside I absolutely love mine so far, cant wait to go riding again.

 

[Five]

I have a VPFree - long bike and tall...but I still love it.

 

[sleepinggiant]

I have a VPFree - long bike and tall...

Not a problem for me, I'm 6'3" and have a wingspan of 6'5" I like big long bikes, they fit me better.

 

[JRogers]

Well, I have a little time on a Blur and a V10. My experience on the V10 actually did really impress me on how well it pedalled, how active the suspension was (brakes or no brakes) and how soft it could be set. I've never been more instantly impressed with a particular bike. It was basically impossible to decently bunny hop it, though. Didn't jump particularly well either. That plus the slack head angle made the bike seem a but slow and plodding. I have not ridden the newer versions but I've been told that the steeper HA and revised suspension make for a more lively ride that is more in line with other DH race frames. Older V10s are great for plowing stuff, as others have said. Probably the best frame ever for someone who rides fast and rough courses and doesn't need to be in the air a lot.

The Blur pedalled well but, well, it should because of it's travel length. It's good but not quite really impressive.

 

[OGRipper]

It's an interesting thread, apparently there aren't that many downsides! I'm a devout SCB fan, I own a blur and vp-free. The only downsides I can think of are the brake jack that others have mentioned, the difficulty of set-up that others have mentioned, and the complexity of mutiple pivots and bearings that can lead to increased maintenance. You said you don't want to hear about the plusses so I won't get into it, but I will say they DO pedal extremely well when set up correctly.

The brake jack is there but not as bad as any single pivot. And although someone mentioned a floater, I haven't seen any floaters other than on the older v10.

Set-up is critical, since the rear needs to be at the right sag point to get the best pedalling performance - on my blur with 5th air, as little as 5-10 psi makes a big diffference. But set-up is important on any bike and I don't really see it as a downside. It's also important to understand that the shock rate varies during the travel stroke, especially on the longer travel bikes. I run a 5th coil on my free with the air chamber all the way in (smallest volume). That seems to help make the shock more progressive and fight the wallowing others mentioned.

As for the last issue, although this is potentially a problem I've not had any issues. I get a little creaking now and then but I'm pretty bad about regular maintenance and love to hose down my bikes without following up with lube. So far no failures!

 

[sleepinggiant]

Yeah, set up and maintence is no prob for me, I've worked in a shop for almost 7 years, and set up SPV bikes for plenty of customers. I've owned plenty of FSR bikes too, so pivot maintence is nothing new to me either.

If I so desired, could I put a floater on the vp-free?

 

[Zark]

I know you can't get a floater for the new V10, but I don't know about the Vpfree.

After spending some time on V10's the brake jack was pretty bad, but I'm an FSR whore through and through.

Eric, you can get the hookup on a demo easy enough, why are you thinking VPFree?

 

[sleepinggiant]

geometry. the demo cockpit is just too small for my long legs and long arms. I like the longer, slacker geometry of the vpfree better. plus, I've owned nothing but FSR's, its time to broden my horizons and vpp bikes seem to rock. and weight. I could get a vpfree down into the 38's, maybe the 37's, and for someone like me, the lighter, the better. plus, I'm about to start at Art's up here in SLO, so I can get the hook up on a vpfree.

 

[Zark]

Yeah, geometry really is the most important element. Demo's feel spot on to me, but I'm pretty average size.

Have you tried the VPFree for fit for you, or are are you just going off catalog numbers?

 

[sleepinggiant]

I've tried out a large, and its too long, but Cambria is just down the road and they have those bikes in all the time. So I should be able to get on a medium soon. But a friend has a rocyk mountain RMX that has almost identical geometry to the medium, and that bikes fits me great. Plus, brake jack on vpp bikes isnt nearly as bad as on single pivots.