Whatever :nuts: We should have asked her what the law code was.trailhacker said:
You need to learn how to multi quote in your posts.
exit 5X
- Thread starter 66
- Start date
You need to learn how to multi quote in your posts.
When you say "they" own the land, don't you mean "we" own the land? Its not an army base or something that isn't open to the public.toughguymagee said:
We could gain access to ride there again, we just need to get a study done that says we aren't destroying habitat for the clams and salamanders. It would only take about $10-15k, and about 3 years?
In talking with some people today it was pointed out to me that when Cyclepath was running the bike shop up there they had to pay a fee to the Snoqualmie tribe. I was wondering if maybe we need to start talking to someone else besides USFS to gain access. Maybe if we paid a fee to the tribe they would let us ride on there lands?
Snacks said:
Snacks said:
Snacks said:
Snacks said:
Takes too much time and detracts from your points....Snacks said:
Time? Isn't that all you have?trailhacker said:
You've got to be kidding me.....mollusks?!?!?!!? Someone actually said that the salamanders and MOLLUSKS were in danger????!! And they kept a straight face while saying it???!!!?! OMG.....no wonder they work for the government, they're f*ckin' retards.....
Interesting side note: Snails and slugs are included in the mollusk family!! Unfortunately for these wonderful killjoys that you were talking to, DH'ers probably aren't the biggest threat to these creatures, even on the most highly used DH trails in the area. Considering I've ran over 1 slug in 5 years of riding DH....you do it once, then you start avoiding em cause it makes your tire NASTY!!! Not to mention the spray in the face....eep.....
2nd Interesting side note: Did these 2 jerkwads actually say that there were endangered salamanders and mollusks on the mountain?? Cause I just went to the governments endangered species website....not a single one (salamander, snail, or slug) is endangered or even being considered being put on the list in the state of WA......sigh...
I guess ignorance really is bliss!
I think this calls for a reprise of a signature I see all the time but can't remember who's it is....maybe it's PNJ's....
I don't get mad, I get stabby
:nuts: :nuts: :nuts: :nuts:
Interesting side note: Snails and slugs are included in the mollusk family!! Unfortunately for these wonderful killjoys that you were talking to, DH'ers probably aren't the biggest threat to these creatures, even on the most highly used DH trails in the area. Considering I've ran over 1 slug in 5 years of riding DH....you do it once, then you start avoiding em cause it makes your tire NASTY!!! Not to mention the spray in the face....eep.....
2nd Interesting side note: Did these 2 jerkwads actually say that there were endangered salamanders and mollusks on the mountain?? Cause I just went to the governments endangered species website....not a single one (salamander, snail, or slug) is endangered or even being considered being put on the list in the state of WA......sigh...
I guess ignorance really is bliss!
I think this calls for a reprise of a signature I see all the time but can't remember who's it is....maybe it's PNJ's....
I don't get mad, I get stabby
:nuts: :nuts: :nuts: :nuts:
Washington. The best DH scene you could never speak openly about. What a crock of sh*t! Maybe we should just start building trails and riding wherever we want. Ruffling feathers to get some notoriety. Maybe then we'll get noticed. Look at skaters. They didn't get skate parks until they destroyed every park bench in town. Now cities can hardly wait to brag about the ones they are building.
Just a thought. I'm just grumpy on Mondays. I'll post later this week with much with more rational dialogue.
:
Just a thought. I'm just grumpy on Mondays. I'll post later this week with much with more rational dialogue.
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No!! No rationality!! Not here!!! Not in times like these!! Let's go destroy stuff! YAY!!! That's it, I'm quitting my job and moving to Bellingham and making liberal use of my passport to go to Whistler every weekend!!!! Responsibilities be damned!!!!Bullitrider said:Washington. The best DH scene you could never speak openly about. What a crock of sh*t! Maybe we should just start building trails and riding wherever we want. Ruffling feathers to get some notoriety. Maybe then we'll get noticed. Look at skaters. They didn't get skate parks until they destroyed every park bench in town. Now cities can hardly wait to brag about the ones they are building.
Just a thought. I'm just grumpy on Mondays. I'll post later this week with much with more rational dialogue.
:nuts:
i heard if you licked those Salamanders it'll get you high.
I agree with flashgorden!
and seand STFU!
Maybe its time we start getting organized as mountain bikers. First of all the Forest Service and DNR do not own all the land in the state. There is the Parks Department and places like the Spada Recreation Area. Parks Department already has trails for other users so it probably wouldn't be too difficult to get them to allow non extreme trails. By non extreme I mean something that would be tough to unenjoyable to ride on a XC bike but fun on a DH or FR bike for people of all levels. It would be good to avoid high risk features in these trails for a few reasons: first, less liability, second, it would coax more people into the FR/DH scene which would give mountain bikers in general a more powerful voice around here.
Another good step to getting organized would be to put some petitions or something at bike shops all over the Seattle area so we could actually get a count of how many people are into DH/FR and how many would like to do it. When a Sheriff sees 10 people at a trail it looks like a small group, when 500+ signitures are collected that show how many people are into the sport all the sudden mountain bikers have a voice. If we want government on our side we need to offer them something, and that something is always money. It needs to be shown to the right officials that a sport that is illegal will never become big, but one that is legal will generate revinues for the community which eventually ends up getting taxed by the government---so everyone wins. Mountain biking has that potential to be tremendously popular and generate a lot of revenue for our area.
Thats my piece, I'm sure I will have more to add. I would like to do something to get organized, but it is kind of daunting by yourself. If anyone is doing anything like this let me know or if you would like to do something like this let me know, I would be more than willing to help. Also the Spada area might be a good place to build. I talked to a Ranger type person up there and I got the impression that the area was open to any type of recreation unless it would screw up the water in the lake or streams. Spada is outside of Sultan in case you don't know. Hope all this made sense.
Another good step to getting organized would be to put some petitions or something at bike shops all over the Seattle area so we could actually get a count of how many people are into DH/FR and how many would like to do it. When a Sheriff sees 10 people at a trail it looks like a small group, when 500+ signitures are collected that show how many people are into the sport all the sudden mountain bikers have a voice. If we want government on our side we need to offer them something, and that something is always money. It needs to be shown to the right officials that a sport that is illegal will never become big, but one that is legal will generate revinues for the community which eventually ends up getting taxed by the government---so everyone wins. Mountain biking has that potential to be tremendously popular and generate a lot of revenue for our area.
Thats my piece, I'm sure I will have more to add. I would like to do something to get organized, but it is kind of daunting by yourself. If anyone is doing anything like this let me know or if you would like to do something like this let me know, I would be more than willing to help. Also the Spada area might be a good place to build. I talked to a Ranger type person up there and I got the impression that the area was open to any type of recreation unless it would screw up the water in the lake or streams. Spada is outside of Sultan in case you don't know. Hope all this made sense.
Ok peeps, I remember going through this same c**p in Cali way back when I used to ride motos. We got booted out of a bunch of places by people with official status who said what we were doing was against the law, we even got tickets and payed fines. Then a few looked into the current laws and damn it we weren't breaking any laws. Jeez talk about getting screwed. We were paying fines for breaking laws that didn't even exist, and being runout of places we had a right to be in because we feared getting more tickets or having our rides impounded. I would urge that from this point anyone who gets stopped Politely do the following;trailhacker said:
1) Ask for the code number of the law you are being told you are breaking.
(so you can research it and share with your friends to help the official
neaky: )2) Ask for the officials full name, badge/ID#, contact info and same info for their supervisor.
(this is so you can get in touch with them should you or anyone you know need more info to better understand the law and help
neaky: )3) Share this info here but allways be polite about it and do not mass call the contact numbers.
It might just be time to group together to see what can be fixed before it really is illeagal to ride anywhere like some have been told, which I am pretty sure we will fined out is pretty much BS. If we know who the officials are that are threatening/issueing tickets for things that don't really apply.....well there are laws against abuseing the power of position/authority in all states....hhhmmmm.....who do you think would be in trouble then......oh and instant bargaining chip for our side. Me I just want to use the land I pay taxes for, it's mine and those people work for me! I don't want to tear up the land or abuse the creatures there at risk, but that really dosen't seem to be the issue that anyone can officially put numbers on, only blind claim and threats. I did notice 10k-15k mentioned in this thread, maybe some fund raisers, donations, grants and such should be looked into. Seems that if they claim dustructive conditions that we should be able to see those reports from those studies, they must exist right. If they exist now and we are locked off the land now then the studies must have been done when we were leagaly up there. So now that we are not up there in numbers there should be a measurable difference, so it would stand to reason that part of the study we need must allready be done it just needs current data to show the difference over time. It also seems that if they clsed the land off because of an environmental impact study that they would still be responsible for updateing the report to show any positive or negative progress, hhhmmmm where is that info and how do we get to look at it, or add to it? Time for us to quit complaining (and hiding) and get smarter. Sorry about rambling on here, just a few thoughts from an old guy anyone else have any constructive positive ideas?
I'd like to chime in here, but apparently opinions can lead to much trash talk on the trail...........
I think regardless of opinion. The good thing is this conversation is happening. Thank god for the interenet. So many people reached easily. Right now, I'm happy to ride wherever I can. If I gotta drive five hours to Whitstler, so be it. Dhing is not going away. Neither am I.
I think regardless of opinion. The good thing is this conversation is happening. Thank god for the interenet. So many people reached easily. Right now, I'm happy to ride wherever I can. If I gotta drive five hours to Whitstler, so be it. Dhing is not going away. Neither am I.
i LICKED AN ENDANGERED SALAMANDER
so say someone with a bunch of motivation and zero know how is going to make DH "legal" in Washington, where might this person start? collecting law codes? firing off the bad FS staff? Offing the sheriff? how do you get a study of the impact for less then 10-15k? who does a study for 10-15k? is a 3 acre half pipe considered "low impact"?
lets start answering the questions one at a time. if we can figure out a solution to some small portion to this (like is DHing in the law books?) then we have moved forward.
Someone with a little law background want to give up a bunch of time and get trails opened for us?
lets start answering the questions one at a time. if we can figure out a solution to some small portion to this (like is DHing in the law books?) then we have moved forward.
Someone with a little law background want to give up a bunch of time and get trails opened for us?
Then you must not have been in Washington.....Skookum said:i LICKED AN ENDANGERED SALAMANDER
I'd need to go to law school first :angry: :angry: Doh....66 said:
Ok, so last night I spent a little of my time going through this site http://www.fs.fed.us/ and it's links, interesting stuff. So in answer to how do we get a study for less than 10-15k? Ask, I will have a draft copy delivered to me on CD sometime in Oct. regaurding the Snoqualmie Master Deavelopment Plan. I should also be recieving (soon I hope) a copy of the proposed development plan it's self. I would like to encourage others to go to the Forrest Service site and read and become familiar with as much as they can. Anyone want to start meeting on a regular basis and share what we learn and start developing a plan on how we might be included in the master development plan. Right now is our last chance to prepare for this and be a positive part of the plan because a final decision is expected in Feb 06 and expected full implementation committed and in course by April 07. I know this is not access now but if we don't do something now to be a positive legal part soon, it really will be 10 years or more. Also, when reviewing the site and info do not go and start calling people and asking a million questions or showing them how much attitude we have, please. As far as legal support I am sure we can account for that if we must do it and have cause.66 said:
Here is an example of what to expect when the Snoqualmie documents are available. This one is from the current Crystal Mt. Master Development Plan and if you read through it mountain biking is part of the study and documentation. http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/mbs/projects/crystal_eis/documents/crystal_mtn_mdp_app_b.pdf
ooh trie going to the projects they thinking on do it. www.fs.fed.us/sopa/components/reports/sopa. they planning to mess araound 27 . they have the name and number of the person to contact, I'll write e-mail to this person to tell us , but I hope not to be the only one we have to stick together. mexicans like salamanders and geicos better the peyote,
Hi Mike!garcia said:
Mig - you crack me up. How's the ankle? doc said I can ride....or kinda ride.garcia said:
I'd be happy to talk to anyone about how to get involved with the public agencies and work towards new legal trails. The more of us who are working on this, the better. I attend a lot of meetings trying to get new trails since I care deeply about DH riding, and its my job. Tonight I'm going to go talk to the King County Council about ecotourism and the money that mountain biking can bring to rural communities.
It takes a LONG time and LOTS of money to work with the Forest Service. $50k - $100k (sometimes more) is about what it costs to complete a new Access and Travel Managment Plan (ATM), and they take many, many years, depending on who is for/against it. You have to hire a botanist, biologist, cultural anthorpologist, and a bunch of other 'ologists to do studies before you can even create a plan and put it out for public comment.
Unfortunately, there are misguided people working hard against bike access, so we need to work even harder. Just look at the little, innocent Middle Fork xc trail to get an idea how long a new ATM plan can take to get approved. We've been working for a decade to re-open this trail, and that is WITH the support of several great conservation groups such as Middle Fork Coalition.
King County is our best bet right now, call your council member and tell them how much you appreciate it, and that you'll vote for them. There are initial plans for new mountain bike trails being worked out right now. We hope to have an announcement or two within a year. Not hardcore DH trails, but a good first step. King county owns a lot of land close to where we all live, so there's a lot of potential. There's a couple hot battles for the remaining 9 council seats, so I think politicians will be listening to input even more than normal.
DNR is also good, but they've got no budget to build new trails. We're constantly working with them as well. BBTC has co-written several grants for trail maintenance, and that's what we'd have to do to build new trails (as well as use lots of volunteers). Trail building is shockingly expensive, $10k per mile on the low end, and $45k per mile on the high end. The key here is to find DNR land that works for us (rocky, steep and dry) that doesn't have a core of hikers or other users that would resist our new trail plans.
Snoqualmie pass owns a bunch of private lands where they used to run the DH trails. The can open the lifts again if they decide it will make $$$$. Call them and tell them you'll spend your hard earned coin up there, and they might open again. To me, it appears to be purely a business decision for them.
There's a bunch of people working on this stuff, including some bikers on this site. Its going to take a lot of work, but we WILL get legal DH here. We HAVE to, I'm sick of spending $60 on gas just to get some good runs in.
As usual, more than my $0.02. Cheers, y'all.
Justin
BBTC
206-524-2900
It takes a LONG time and LOTS of money to work with the Forest Service. $50k - $100k (sometimes more) is about what it costs to complete a new Access and Travel Managment Plan (ATM), and they take many, many years, depending on who is for/against it. You have to hire a botanist, biologist, cultural anthorpologist, and a bunch of other 'ologists to do studies before you can even create a plan and put it out for public comment.
Unfortunately, there are misguided people working hard against bike access, so we need to work even harder. Just look at the little, innocent Middle Fork xc trail to get an idea how long a new ATM plan can take to get approved. We've been working for a decade to re-open this trail, and that is WITH the support of several great conservation groups such as Middle Fork Coalition.
King County is our best bet right now, call your council member and tell them how much you appreciate it, and that you'll vote for them. There are initial plans for new mountain bike trails being worked out right now. We hope to have an announcement or two within a year. Not hardcore DH trails, but a good first step. King county owns a lot of land close to where we all live, so there's a lot of potential. There's a couple hot battles for the remaining 9 council seats, so I think politicians will be listening to input even more than normal.
DNR is also good, but they've got no budget to build new trails. We're constantly working with them as well. BBTC has co-written several grants for trail maintenance, and that's what we'd have to do to build new trails (as well as use lots of volunteers). Trail building is shockingly expensive, $10k per mile on the low end, and $45k per mile on the high end. The key here is to find DNR land that works for us (rocky, steep and dry) that doesn't have a core of hikers or other users that would resist our new trail plans.
Snoqualmie pass owns a bunch of private lands where they used to run the DH trails. The can open the lifts again if they decide it will make $$$$. Call them and tell them you'll spend your hard earned coin up there, and they might open again. To me, it appears to be purely a business decision for them.
There's a bunch of people working on this stuff, including some bikers on this site. Its going to take a lot of work, but we WILL get legal DH here. We HAVE to, I'm sick of spending $60 on gas just to get some good runs in.
As usual, more than my $0.02. Cheers, y'all.
Justin
BBTC
206-524-2900
Thanks Justin 
anyone else have any positive comments, ideas and/or knowledge post up. If you want things to change you can't just complain about it online, positive input and effort really can turn into results that would be good for us and others. Check out the BBTC also and you will find that much of the land you can ride on now is because of them.
anyone else have any positive comments, ideas and/or knowledge post up. If you want things to change you can't just complain about it online, positive input and effort really can turn into results that would be good for us and others. Check out the BBTC also and you will find that much of the land you can ride on now is because of them.
pwn3dtrailhacker said:
I like to smoke slamander skin out of a molusk pipe.....garcia said:
That explains A LOT!oly said:
Does it?Five said:
Could that also explain the reason why there is a 7 legged alligator follwing me around today? 
Yes that's the reason - not to be off subject since we're already off subject, but I did a few of those photoshopped pictures of you at Silver, you know "Where's Oly" I'll have to post em.oly said:Does it?
Now to be back on subject - the title of this thread should've been "Exit (fill in the blank)" same discussions - different area.
IS THE ALLIGATOR FOLLOWING ME THERE TOO?????Five said:
What was the topic?? I got lost somewheere in page XX
Now you want me to photochop an alligator too? so demanding.
Five said:
haha, no I just cant remember if he was there too.. since i dont remember being at silver MTN.... i think the drugs are starting to Kick in,,,,,,
, that or boredom.....
Thanks Evilbob and Justin. Sounds like you two are valuable to the cause. Count me in.
Time to start reading some boring stuff, making note and making a plan.
Time to start reading some boring stuff, making note and making a plan.
Just recieved my copy of "The Summit at Snoqualmie Master Development Plan Proposal" "Draft Environmental Impact Statement".
Interesting stuff! Anyway I will be reviewing this over the next few days (break it down a little), then some early contacts to some of the other parties of interest connected to the proposed plan. Shortly (couple of weeks) I hope to be able to show where we fit in and maybe start putting together a small group to start working (with others) to get us back on the mountain, with a little luck. Be positive and be patient.
66 if you are still up for this I hope to need some help.
Interesting stuff! Anyway I will be reviewing this over the next few days (break it down a little), then some early contacts to some of the other parties of interest connected to the proposed plan. Shortly (couple of weeks) I hope to be able to show where we fit in and maybe start putting together a small group to start working (with others) to get us back on the mountain, with a little luck. Be positive and be patient.
66 if you are still up for this I hope to need some help.
Buy the way, what I have reviewed thus far relative to MTBs has nothing negative. It appears that there is entent to include MTBs back on the mountain, how is still to be determined.
We need to thin out the numbers of those Salamanders as they've now been included on the War Against Drugs!evilbob said:
Anyways i certainly hope the good ole days return to The Pass. It's the one close place where DH might not be perfect but worked in the past. Plus the XC potential around there is prime.