[Cant Climb]

Any job is an honorable job. I think you might offended a lot of members of RM with taunting physical work (bike mechanics, etc). .

Working on an assemble line is not always easy work......people here blabbering about stuff they have never done. Alot of times it is very repetitive and requires awkward movements hundreds of time a day. Doesn't sound like much until you do it for several years. It can truly ravage your body....ruin soft tissue, chronic tendonitis, back problems etc....stuff that is that can linger and linger. Hence health insurance and retiree health insurance is a huge issue for these people.....

No. I'm not an autoworker but have family in similar jobs.

 

[ohio]

Of all the jobs I've had, the two I spent on a factory floor were by far the worst. Doing that for 40 years is an unimaginable fate worse than death to me. Mad props to factory workers. (But union hacks are still overpaid)

 

[Cant Climb]

Mad props to factory workers. (But union hacks are still overpaid)

Not all are overpaid. UAW is ridiculous though.....

 

[Samirol]

can we keep non-education related stuff in the other thread, because university professor pay is relevant to the thread, but talking about the UAW isn't really relevant to the education system

 

[ohio]

can we keep non-education related stuff in the other thread, because university professor pay is relevant to the thread, but talking about the UAW isn't really relevant to the education system

Please, this thread was ****ed from the moment a few assholes got confused by the article, confounded issues of culture, class, and educational philosophy, and assumed the worst of people who chose a different career path than they did.

I have yet to see one intelligent comment in the whole thread from anyone, so I may as well **** in it like everyone else has.

 

[Samirol]

Please, this thread was ****ed from the moment a few assholes got confused by the article, confounded issues of culture, class, and educational philosophy, and assumed the worst of people who chose a different career path than they did.

I have yet to see one intelligent comment in the whole thread from anyone, so I may as well **** in it like everyone else has.

the goal is to keep it at the very least education related, but yeah, it was pretty much screwed from the beginning

I wasn't blaming you for getting it off track

 

[Cant Climb]

can we keep non-education related stuff in the other thread, because university professor pay is relevant to the thread, but talking about the UAW isn't really relevant to the education system

True.

I shouldn't have posted that......

 

[JRogers]

As I said, a PHD holding professor don't do anything more than any other working person. They both do what they can within the limits that nature gave them. Some of us are fortunate, and some of us are less fortunate, but it's nothing but pure luck who gets to be blessed to a greater extent. Using that luck you've been blessed with to put down others less fortunate is an elitist thing, and I would also say that it's characteristic typical of a fascist.

It's like pissing on a person because he was born with a different colour skin than yours, or because he's born in Burkina Faso, same thing.

Uhhhh, I see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure how far that logic really goes. What if it's my "natural ability" to only work 5 hours a day. Hey, I just get bored quicker than everyone else and my parents taught me to be lazy. Should I be paid the same? Heeellllll no.

Of course there's a middle ground in all of this, but I don't think you can maintain that it all boils down to some natural ability and social circumstance. Or at least practically, compensation cannot reflect this fact.

As far as education goes, there should be a benefit to education. Society needs people with higher degrees, so it should make it possible for them to do it. It costs a buttload of time and money and, to some extent, the investment should be returned.

 

[Samirol]

As far as education goes, there should be a benefit to education. Society needs people with higher degrees, so it should make it possible for them to do it. It costs a buttload of time and money and, to some extent, the investment should be returned.

Part of the benefit is that you aren't on your hands and knees doing a plumbing job, a construction job, etc.

I think what rockwool is pointing out is that we should value all jobs and what they contribute to society, instead of saying that lawyers are worth more than plumbers, we should look at all jobs as gears in society, where every job is necessary and in a sense equal.

 

[Defenestrated]

Those who work hardest usually receive the least.

 

[rockwool]

Uhhhh, I see what you're getting at, but I'm not sure how far that logic really goes. What if it's my "natural ability" to only work 5 hours a day. Hey, I just get bored quicker than everyone else and my parents taught me to be lazy. Should I be paid the same? Heeellllll no.

I didn't mean "natural ability", I only meant the real one; natural ability.

Of course there's a middle ground in all of this, but I don't think you can maintain that it all boils down to some natural ability and social circumstance. Or at least practically, compensation cannot reflect this fact.

I don't know what you mean with middle ground in this context. We're all equal and worth the same. If non of us leech and instead have a job, then we all contribute to our country. Since we're not meant to compete but complete each other, we're born with differen talents. Who's with what and to what extent is about luch in the lottery called Nature.

Using your vocal talent to put you, in any way, above anybody else, is as wrong as using your physical ability to do the same, with or without a spike club. That behaviour is only OK among animals, humans are created with the intellect we have to rise above that.

In practicallity, other factors have to be included; like how dangerous to health it is; if the're any, or many, that want to do this work etc. This system has worked, does work, but the lid is on so it seems it hasn't reached Metropolis.

As far as education goes, there should be a benefit to education. Society needs people with higher degrees, so it should make it possible for them to do it. It costs a buttload of time and money and, to some extent, the investment should be returned.

Their investment isn't an issue in some countries where students get a salary and don't take any loans at all. They don't exist. In Sweden, as an example of a half god system, students get some money wich should ge enough if they still live with their parents or share a flat with some mates. But if they want to live in a flat of their own and are too lazy to work part, or full, time they can get a cheap loan. This loan is regulated to be paid back over a life time, so they don't have any pressure from there eather.

That's how society should cater for its citizens, not by draining the poor southern countries from their scholars.

 

[Serial Midget]

Isn't envy one of the 7 deadly sins?

 

[ohio]

I think what rockwool is pointing out is that we should value all jobs and what they contribute to society, instead of saying that lawyers are worth more than plumbers, we should look at all jobs as gears in society, where every job is necessary and in a sense equal.

All jobs are valuable, and are worthy of a sense of pride, however not all jobs are equal, and certainly not all efforts are equal.

I will agree with you that America has an odd love/hate relationship with it's blue collar side... where on the one hand we embrace "the Real America(tm)" but at the same time loath the idea of being poor, and fill our lower classes with an inferiority complex and dissatisfaction. It is unhealthy, and there's no question we need to do a better job of recognizing the (sometimes extraordinary) efforts and talents that go into vocational work, and make it more acceptable to pursue the right career for your talents. Part of that, however, is recognizing that success is not a linear path that correlates exactly to pay or wealth.

That last part is critical, but it also means that we recognize that some work pays more. I'll let you and rockwool argue about whether it is "worth" more.

 

[rockwool]

All jobs are valuable, and are worthy of a sense of pride, however not all jobs are equal, and certainly not all efforts are equal.

I will agree with you that America has an odd love/hate relationship with it's blue collar side... where on the one hand we embrace "the Real America(tm)" but at the same time loath the idea of being poor, and fill our lower classes with an inferiority complex and dissatisfaction. It is unhealthy, and there's no question we need to do a better job of recognizing the (sometimes extraordinary) efforts and talents that go into vocational work, and make it more acceptable to pursue the right career for your talents. Part of that, however, is recognizing that success is not a linear path that correlates exactly to pay or wealth.

That last part is critical, but it also means that we recognize that some work pays more. I'll let you and rockwool argue about whether it is "worth" more.

All jobs aren't equal. I belive I said that all men (are women accoutable when saying just men, or should I add them?) are equally worth (that's what I meant anyways). That also means that our efforts should be worth equal, assuming same time and energy has been put in to each and every ones best ability.

That said, jobs differ. I for example, at my work am exposed to various hazards. I drill holes in mountains/rocks and then I fill them with explosives. (I don't know what my proffesion is called in English)

Doing this I'm exposed to a ridiculous amount of noice; diesel engine revving, vacum thingie, compressor, the drilling noice, all these things make an unbelievable amount of noice. I can't communicate standing next to it. Even though I wear the thickest level earphones (?) I'm still exposed to too much noice. There are clinical studies to what damage noice exposure of that kind does to ones physical/psychological health.

Naturally, this being diesel driven I get to smell a lot of exhausts depending on how the wind blows, and if you've ever drilled a hole at home then you know how much dust comes out of a 10mm drill hole, so at times I get a lot of drill dust in my lungs too.

Sometimes I have to drill by hand, with a pressure driven "Cobra" that weighs ALOT and vibrates even more. What vibrations do to man is also documented. I belive they (guvament) only allow 15min of drilling per hour, but dare say that to your boss...

On top of that, this being construction work I am exposed injuries. In December last year I was less then a second away from having my finger torn off of me when my glove got cought in the rotation. I still don't have 100% movement in it. Third of April this year I steped wrong and tore my front crusiate of and had to cut of half of my medial meniscus.

At a construction site, people slip and fall from hights, get crushed under machines or stuff, and using explosives is always a risk of something going wrong. People die from all these things, a few every year in our little country (and do I even have to mention the sweden=safety bit?).

Partly due to my injuries at work over the years, and partly due to those from biking, I wasn't able to get an accident insurance when I aplied for it. That's discrimination. Office people don't get to deal with this ****. If you were to risk your health, or even your life, then you would want to get paid for that, as in more than an office guy, right?

These are factors that should be counted in when setting the salary of a particuar work, and out of this very reason do academics in Cuba often get paid less than some blue collar workers.

 

[ohio]

I drill holes in mountains/rocks and then I fill them with explosives. (I don't know what my proffesion is called in English)

It's called "awesome."

Do you have any videos?

 

[ohio]

These are factors that should be counted in when setting the salary of a particuar work

We are in agreement. No question that bodily risk and long-term side-effects should be factored into salary.

The free market says they will be factored in because people wouldn't take such risky jobs unless they paid more than less risky jobs... but I'd have to ask you if this is actually the case.

(note: the above assumes the employer is completely open and honest about the risks and side-effects... something that has certainly not been true in the US. I don't know about Sweden.)

 

[rockwool]

It's called "awesome."

Do you have any videos?

LOL. Sure, it's up on youtube and it's called DrilinRGZ n'Bitzes, from Tommy Boy Records. I'll look it up for you.

We are in agreement. No question that bodily risk and long-term side-effects should be factored into salary.

The free market says they will be factored in because people wouldn't take such risky jobs unless they paid more than less risky jobs... but I'd have to ask you if this is actually the case.

(note: the above assumes the employer is completely open and honest about the risks and side-effects... something that has certainly not been true in the US. I don't know about Sweden.)

We're aware of the risks, and I can't see it shouldn't be so in the US too, but of course nobody thinks of the risks, we all live with a "it won't happen to me" mentality. But hey, we got to eat too, right? So in the end choises are few if one can't handle studying.

Things are improving all the time when it comes to safety at construction sites, this autumn Skanska (a multinational corporation) made us all wear protective glasses all the time (no matter what type of work), and many companies crave high visibility reflective clothing. Machines improve all the time, getting quiter, cleaner, more ergonomical, and vibrate less.