[Akula_7]

This aul forum is a bit dull right now so here is something to have a yarn over, As of 2007 the never ending debate of Flats Vs. Clipless in DH well...ended, thank fcuk!

But here is some actual research carried out by Greg "coachG" Romero. Its a BMX protocol but comes to some interesting conclusions, based on fact not speculation I might add.

http://www.bmxnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1197&Itemid=109

Basically, A lot of people assumed that the extra power advantage gained from riding devil pedals was gained from the addition of an up-stroke.


But as the research proves adding an upstroke is HUGELY detremental to peak power, RPM and top speed!

And as Greg himself says clips still rule over flats as "The prime movers of the leg muscles producing concentric/eccentric contractions can focus on what it does best without hesitation of trying to keep the ball of the foot attached to the pedal.


So basically, clips produce more power then flats, but not for the reasons most peps think, and the people who clip-in and power to the finish line of whatever DH race using an "up-stroke" are doing themselfs a major injustice!


Its good reading, well for me anyways...enjoy!

 

[Mike Buell]

cool study, I'd like to see a few more people run the same tests though before i'd be convinced, maybe a higher level pro as well, someone who has really trained there peadle stroke

 

[Zutroy]

This aul forum is a bit dull right now so here is something to have a yarn over, As of 2007 the never ending debate of Flats Vs. Clipless in DH well...ended, thank fcuk!

But here is some actual research carried out by Greg "coachG" Romero. Its a BMX protocol but comes to some interesting conclusions, based on fact not speculation I might add.

Basically, A lot of people assumed that the extra power advantage gained from riding devil pedals was gained from the addition of an up-stroke.


But as the research proves adding an upstroke is HUGELY detremental to peak power, RPM and top speed!

And as Greg himself says clips still rule over flats as "The prime movers of the leg muscles producing concentric/eccentric contractions can focus on what it does best without hesitation of trying to keep the ball of the foot attached to the pedal.


So basically, clips produce more power then flats, but not for the reasons most peps think, and the people who clip-in and power to the finish line of whatever DH race using an "up-stroke" are doing themselfs a major injustice!


Its good reading, well for me anyways...enjoy!

Can't see how this is anything useful, it's one kid, who's altering his natural pedal stroke, far from anything useful.

 

[jeremyb]

And so the dismissing begins, if god came to earth and told everyone that the upstroke was less efficient then there would still be people dismissing it as lies.

 

[freeridefool]

Sam Hill runs flats... everybody knows he would smoke GOD on a dh bike, so flats must be better and more powerful.

 

[FOXROX]

lets ask...

biker fox!

 

[Akula_7]

Can't see how this is anything useful, it's one kid, who's altering his natural pedal stroke, far from anything useful.

Yeah because Greg Romero is a chump who knows nothing about bicycle racing!

This isn't the only study of of pedaling technique that has come to similar conclusions, although I'm having a hard time finding said studies on the net.

The basis for the my post was that a lot of people have a notion that "correct" pedaling technique involves an upstroke (which can only be achieved with clipless), this simple study shows in simple terms what everyone in track cycling already knows, that a conscious inclusion of an upstroke is detrimental to overall power output.

I understand that a test using just one moderatly skilled athlete leaves a lot to be desired, but no-one ever said this was clinical stuff here.

I never said it was useful but I'm sure Greg Romero, ya know the guy who is coaching all of YOUR BMXers that are going to Bejieng, thinks it's some use.

 

[116CJ]

lets ask...

biker fox!

haha bikerfox! that guy is a few bricks short of a wall.

 

[Akula_7]

http://www.topbike.com.au/pdfs/colson-bicyc-austjuly_aug2002.pdf#search="power pedals colson"

Similar conclusions but more "scientific" then CoachG's test.

 

[bizutch]

haha bikerfox! that guy is a few bricks short of a wall.

what's really funny is I worked at Radio Shack to help a friend (and myself) out over the holidays. His 2nd in charge looks like a gay pirate version of bikerfox. I could push the guys buttons so easy. He made the little college geeks mad so they asked me to push his buttons.

I printed pics of bikerfox & put them on the bathroom for him to stare at. Dude was livid....especially when bikerfox appeared in different poses everywhere he least expected him. So very pissed....

 

[JRogers]

While I agree that this isn't the most scientific of tests, as Akula pointed out, it supports the general findings of some other tests. The only other criticism with this specific test I'd point out is that pulling some on the upstroke may provide some benefit on endurance rides. I ride clips all the time (XC, road and DH right now) and never try to pull on the upstroke unless I get bored riding in a straight line (though going for circles is usually better than pulling up) or start struggling up a climb.

 

[dhmike]

i call bs.

 

[kidwoo]

i call bs.

I call punch buggy.

 

[Nagaredama]

Cool test but I see some obvious shortcomings.

Done on a road bike?
How about conducting the test on at 5 different people?
What race is 5 pedal strokes long?
How about hooking one of those power meters to a BMX bike test the power output on an actual gate?

I'd like to see them really do a test and apply to it the US Olympic team.

 

[Metal Dude]

Test must not line him up against his competitors to see how his first straight compares. I can promise you me and all my gate practice buddies are pretty tight bar to bar down the first straight and any of us will not be able to hang if we throw on flats.

Plus as far as Downhill is concerned I don't run flats for the upstroke, I run them so my feet aren't bouncing off the pedals through rough sections. I can tell a big difference in being able to get a couple pedal strokes through certain sections with clipless. To each his own- God only knows how fast Sam would be if he ran clipless!

 

[stiksandstones]

No one loves flat pedals more than GR (see Bias), there is very little science in this test as many have mentioned.
But good on ya for creating a interesting yet ridiculous post. Proof is in the pudding (for bmx)=put flat pedals on in a world class bmx race and you won't win jack.

 

[FOXROX]

 

[Dogboy]

Clips are for kooks...someone had to say it.

 

[TA..]

Clips are for kooks...someone had to say it.

Balance has been restored to the Force

 

[Huck Banzai]

Maybe the tour should siwtch to flats?

 

[Zutroy]

Yeah because Greg Romero is a chump who knows nothing about bicycle racing!

This isn't the only study of of pedaling technique that has come to similar conclusions, although I'm having a hard time finding said studies on the net.

The basis for the my post was that a lot of people have a notion that "correct" pedaling technique involves an upstroke (which can only be achieved with clipless), this simple study shows in simple terms what everyone in track cycling already knows, that a conscious inclusion of an upstroke is detrimental to overall power output.

I understand that a test using just one moderatly skilled athlete leaves a lot to be desired, but no-one ever said this was clinical stuff here.

I never said it was useful but I'm sure Greg Romero, ya know the guy who is coaching all of YOUR BMXers that are going to Bejieng, thinks it's some use.

First the info you quoted from the other studies dose not apply here. They studies were looking at endurance cyclist sitting down putting out a constant power output in in a TT.

The mechanics are much different when you're standing sprinting at full power.

Track is also different as you're on a fixed system where you're leg movement is directly related to the movement pedaling movement.

Also everyone on the track is clipped in. The sprinters are so stuck to the pedals it's not even funny. Also every watch the kilo start? Think they're not pulling up?

Finally that's great he's coaching all our guys going.....they're all also clipped guys.

 

[Metal Dude]

First the info you quoted from the other studies dose not apply here. They studies were looking at endurance cyclist sitting down putting out a constant power output in in a TT.

The mechanics are much different when you're standing sprinting at full power.

Track is also different as you're on a fixed system where you're leg movement is directly related to the movement pedaling movement.

Also everyone on the track is clipped in. The sprinters are so stuck to the pedals it's not even funny. Also every watch the kilo start? Think they're not pulling up?

Finally that's great he's coaching all our guys going.....they're all also clipped guys.

Have to 100% agree and think this is the best point made here, standing sprinting and powering while sitting are totally different comparisons.
Even though a standing sprint like BMX probably doesn't benefit from a concious or full upstroke.
You still benefit from the fact you are clipped in, you can't tell me the fact that you feet aren't slightly floating on the upstroke
and the fact that there is something gained during the 6 to 7 oclock postitions through unconcious yet fluent followthrough as well as the
11-12 oclock position setting up for a cleaner beginning to the next mashing part of the stroke....
I know when I run clipless I can also get a little "concious" extra upstroke umph at the bottom of the last stroke or two before taking a break in pedalling such as
before a jump section or turn. Every extra partial stroke counts too! I have used this to get a slight advantage into these sections when running bar to bar.
like holding the throttle a little bit longer than the next guy into a turn'll./

 

[Akula_7]

First the info you quoted from the other studies dose not apply here. They studies were looking at endurance cyclist sitting down putting out a constant power output in in a TT.

The mechanics are much different when you're standing sprinting at full power.

Track is also different as you're on a fixed system where you're leg movement is directly related to the movement pedaling movement.

Also everyone on the track is clipped in. The sprinters are so stuck to the pedals it's not even funny. Also every watch the kilo start? Think they're not pulling up?

Finally that's great he's coaching all our guys going.....they're all also clipped guys.

I take it from your tone that you know more then myself on the science of this subject?

I am having a hard time understanding your point from that post.

Simply my original post was to show that in practice a lot of downhill racers who ride clipless probably try to pedal in "circles" by including an upstroke, Greg's "study" in particular showed that flats produced better results then clipless when clipless where used with an upstroke. Thus meaning that the advantage some riders think they gain with clipless for pedaling is negated? No?

I see it with countless riders at races all over the world, they pull up at the bottom of each stroke. Hindering their downstroke (where 90% of the power comes from), and creating a THUD at the top and bottom of each stroke.



I'm not educated enough, yet, in biomechanics or pyshiology to argue with you, but I don't understand what your saying by replying to me? You don't give any evidence yourself that an upstroke in sprinting is beneficial, all your doing is telling me I'm WRONG and you know the facts?

How about a discussion?

Here's a vid of Chris Hoy, looks to me from that, that he focuses on his downstroke alot more then anything else?

Come on horse gimme some science?

 

[Metal Dude]

I take it from your tone that you know more then myself on the science of this subject?

I am having a hard time understanding your point from that post.

Simply my original post was to show that in practice a lot of downhill racers who ride clipless probably try to pedal in "circles" by including an upstroke, Greg's "study" in particular showed that flats produced better results then clipless when clipless where used with an upstroke. Thus meaning that the advantage some riders think they gain with clipless for pedaling is negated? No?

I see it with countless riders at races all over the world, they pull up at the bottom of each stroke. Hindering their downstroke (where 90% of the power comes from), and creating a THUD at the top and bottom of each stroke.



I'm not educated enough, yet, in biomechanics or pyshiology to argue with you, but I don't understand what your saying by replying to me? You don't give any evidence yourself that an upstroke in sprinting is beneficial, all your doing is telling me I'm WRONG and you know the facts?

How about a discussion?

Here's a vid of Chris Hoy, looks to me from that, that he focuses on his downstroke alot more then anything else?

Come on horse gimme some science?

I don't disagree that (focusing conciously) on the upstroke is not a benefit of running clipless or that pedalling in a sprinting or mashing fashion
is suited better for standing and sprinting, but it still doesn't negate the fact you will still benefit from being connected to the pedal in the upstroke.
I know I don't try to pedal "perfect circles" when I sprint while standing. I sprint just the same as if I were on flats. I don't need scientific proof from
some test to tell me I'm faster with clipless. It is a fact because I can get from the gate to the first turn in a shorter amount of time.