thats pretty silly if it's a non-destructive modification....ska todd said:
floating brake
- Thread starter zmtber
- Start date
Yeah I find that a little outrageous...zedro said:
I was considering buying a brake therapy floater for my banshee scream before reading this thread which has lighten more the conception of floating disc for me, so it seems that for my Scream, the floater will be a good idea as suspension is quite similar to kona, but another factor that has almost convinced me,and that seems to be very important too, its the kind of terrain in which you are riding...I mean, I suppose its not the same if you are riding most of the time in smooth trails or if you are riding most of the time in rocky and rooty trails(does this word exist in English??), in my case, the last scenary its the one that I ride most as I live next to the Pirynees and here the trails are not cleaned so they are quite full of rocks, roots, etc...I imagine the riding to be quite similar to Les Gets or Ft Bill....so I think in my case, its going to be worth to pay all that money,moreover because I do notice brake jacking in the technical downhill section I ride, correct me if I wrong. The only problem is that Im currently running an Atomlab aircorp rear hub and Brian has to check if his floater is going to work with this hub, so I will have to wait for a while, lets see what happens....
A mod like a floater can put a lot of stress on tubing & forged parts that was not intended and was not tested in our analysis work (eg. mounting the floater to the hole in the leftside upright). The Sunday was designed from the ground up to be a World Cup level race bike. Don't mod stuff if you don't want to accept liability when things go awry.zedro said:
-ska todd
of course, but a floating brake wont snap your headtube off.....ska todd said:
Yes & no, if someone messes up an upright b/c he ran a floating brake, which in turn stresses the TT/DT differently and this leads to a failure, who's at fault? The guy who puts the floating brake on. Simply put, feel free to do whatever you want to your frame but don't come back crying if/when something goes wrong.zedro said:
-ska todd
i know people who have been using brake therapy for a while, and there is no sign that there was and stress on the frame, however on frames like the sunday the brake force was built into the suspension design and would most likely make the ride feel worseska todd said:
now thats pushing it.....ska todd said:
i can see the warning stickers now: "Caution, adding a floating brake may cause headtube ovalisation"
actual stresses (not simulated ones) are so chaotic you cant perfectly predict them anyways; I'd give a loud WTF if the warranty guy said my floating brake musta caused my front end to shear off because otherwise the bike is a work of engineering perfection.....
huh??zmtber said:
And you know this because.......
because reality is limited to one's perception (oooo...so deepChrisRobin said:
)although I'm not a fan of the seat tube collar mount, i'm surprised that they've seem to have worked as well as they have.
Hi ska todd,ska todd said:
I believe this is the first time we've had any contact end don't think we've met. We should do that next time we're in the same place (sea otter?).
Regarding the warranty void on the frames. I'm not concerned that our floating brakes would cause any sort of structural problem. We've been making floaters since '97-98, and there have been no reported cases of an sort of failure, either with floater components, harware, or attachment method. This includes any area of the frame.
Generally speaking, it is not a difficult task to calculate the loads the a floating brake can produce, and the material strength necessarry to attach it. In most cases, our mounts are severe overkill in strength, because I like it that way, and so do the manufacturers we work with. if you like, drop me an email, and I can provide this.
I can warn prospective IH customers that their warranty might be void if they buy a floating brake, but would this apply to ANY failure, such as an unrelated frame failure, or weld problem in another area?
Brian
bikes@therapycomponents.com
www.therapycomponents.com
I hope we get your hub situation sorted out. You will love the floater on your Scream, especially in your terrain, and the warranty on your frame won't be voided....banrider said:I was considering buying a brake therapy floater for my banshee scream before reading this thread which has lighten more the conception of floating disc for me, so it seems that for my Scream, the floater will be a good idea as suspension is quite similar to kona, but another factor that has almost convinced me,and that seems to be very important too, its the kind of terrain in which you are riding...I mean, I suppose its not the same if you are riding most of the time in smooth trails or if you are riding most of the time in rocky and rooty trails(does this word exist in English??), in my case, the last scenary its the one that I ride most as I live next to the Pirynees and here the trails are not cleaned so they are quite full of rocks, roots, etc...I imagine the riding to be quite similar to Les Gets or Ft Bill....so I think in my case, its going to be worth to pay all that money,moreover because I do notice brake jacking in the technical downhill section I ride, correct me if I wrong. The only problem is that Im currently running an Atomlab aircorp rear hub and Brian has to check if his floater is going to work with this hub, so I will have to wait for a while, lets see what happens....
Brian
If I did a poor job of calculating loads, and caused a customer's frame to fail because he added our floating brake, I would probably just warranty the frame myself. I would consider that a serious engineering failure.ska todd said:
By the way, I'm not sure about the hole in the leftside upright you mention, but rest assured that I have not now, nor likely ever will attach anything to that hole. It sounds like you're implying that we're doing so. Again, I will be happy to supply attachment information to you when it's available.
As for the "don't mod stuff" comment, that is silly, that would take all the fun away
Again you mention this upright, why the high concern for this spot?ska todd said:
But seriously now, are you saying ANY warrenty failure will be void if a floating brake is added? Can I see this in writing, I'd like to have a copy for customers.
I was thinking of adding a "frame life extending" warranty clause, stating your bike would last longer with a floater.....some lawyer would probably keep me from doing it......
yes its stange to hear that "don't mod stuff" because i know of people moding their bikes to lighten or to put new components on their bikes all the time. for example just the other month i had to get my rocker arm on my kona dremeled so the air valve of the dhx air would fit, and another person i know put speed holes all over his rocker arm to lighten his bike. this guy is also a great dh and really puts a lot of stress on his bikes, but no problem, and he has been riding the bike for a full season and a half. he also just added a carbon fiber brake therapy floating brake to his bike, and he says its the strongest and coolest thing he has done to his bike yet.
ziiiiiiiiiing!!!shock said:
Im fairly sure that getting out a dremel and putting holes in your frame will void your warranty regardless of who builds your bike.
The uprights on the Sunday are pretty much the only place you could mount a floater as far as I can think... unless you bolt it onto the top or down tube
Fact remains IMO the DW link does not need a floater anyway so the whole argument is a bit pointless.
The uprights on the Sunday are pretty much the only place you could mount a floater as far as I can think... unless you bolt it onto the top or down tube
Fact remains IMO the DW link does not need a floater anyway so the whole argument is a bit pointless.
The installation of a floating brake should never involve holes dremelled. In most cases, you can remove the floater and never know it was there...klunky said:
In the case of drilling a hole in the frame, Dave Turner approved of the location and drilling of the hole on the DHR. We did not consult SC when we drilled a hole for the V-10 rod, but it certainly was in a structrully overbuilt area. Later, that customer broke his frame in a different area, and SC replaced it, no problem.
We're getting pretty creative when it comes to attaching rods. We have to be after dealing with all the variations in bike design. I'm sure we can do the same for the Sunday, or we wouldn't do it at all.klunky said:
And you never know, for some people, we may be able to make a good bike better.
Brian
Brian,
After all of this, if you still wish to pursue a floating brake on a Sunday, please inform all prospective customers that installing such product on a Sunday will void their frame warranty. No modifications of frames are allowed unless explicitly authorized by Iron Horse Bicycles. Case closed. Sorry but this is as simple as I can put it.
-ska todd
After all of this, if you still wish to pursue a floating brake on a Sunday, please inform all prospective customers that installing such product on a Sunday will void their frame warranty. No modifications of frames are allowed unless explicitly authorized by Iron Horse Bicycles. Case closed. Sorry but this is as simple as I can put it.
-ska todd
I gotta say, I agree with Todd in this case. You modify your frame, you void the warranty. This is pretty much the case with most manufacturers. Some don't take it this far, but it's their product. As it is, Iron Horse's warranty and CS is pretty liberal.ska todd said:
damn. and i so wanted handlebar tassles....ska todd said:
Sorry boys, caught not paying attention again?Transcend said:
So do you think the almighty Sunday can have one w/o modifying the frame?shock said:
On point 1 - what?Turd Ferguson said:
And point 2 - Iron horse means if you run a floating brake, your warranty is voided.
No actual "mods" (holes, brackets etc) are necessary to void it. Simply running the floater can put stresses in placs they didn't intend for them to be. Sure it may not hurt anything, but I guess somehow they think it could?
Point 1: Modifying the frame usually consists of "changing" the frame.Transcend said:
Point 2: You' re right, but it seems like they(IH) are taking this floating brake thing very personal(like "We designed the perfect frame-how dare you imply that it could be improved.")
That's the way I see it too. Completely voiding a warranty when frame damage/defects is completely unrelated to the use of a floater is just plain ridiculous. Typical though, nothing new...Turd Ferguson said:
I don't consider a floating brake to be a "modification" when it can be installed and removed without ever knowing it was even there. In my opinion a Hopey steering damper is just as much of a frame modification as a floater. Will they void the warranty as well?
I think that is exactly how it is coming across to almost everyone who reads this thread.Turd Ferguson said:
On a very related subject, where excactly is Iron Horse's warranty on their site? What are the specific terms of the warranty? None of my Iron Horses have come with any info about the warranty.
I don't think it's personal, I think they are just covering their asses.WheelieMan said:
Yes, BTW. On many frames a hopey will, in fact, void your warranty. Improperly installed they can easily destroy headtubes.
even properly installed they've been known to destroy headtubes (eg no steelset)
so what would a "modification" be then? shock change? Avalanche resevoir mounting? spring change? mounting a mudguard? different chain device? headset? all are modifications, or is it just for things that weren't there in the first place? seems a little vague to me
so what would a "modification" be then? shock change? Avalanche resevoir mounting? spring change? mounting a mudguard? different chain device? headset? all are modifications, or is it just for things that weren't there in the first place? seems a little vague to me
Yes & no again. We consider this akin to installing a fork that is too long on an XC bike or using a shorter/longer e-to-e shock to modify geometry or eek extra travel. Both are things that can lead to structural issues with a bike that would be beyond the design scope and intended us of the product.Turd Ferguson said:
We believe that using a floating brake will not enhance ride quality of the bike in anyway and may actually be detrimental to performance of the bike. The dw-link design is the most advanced suspension design currently in use on mountain bikes. Factors such as braking performance were heavily considered when the bike was designed. The dw-link design is a complete package.Turd Ferguson said:
Logically, any warranty problem that could be directly attributed to use of the floater would void warranty. As was stated above, Iron Horse has been traditionally very liberal and gracious on warranty issues however, if you do something that we explicitly say "don't do that" and as a result mess something up, don't expect a handout! Take responsibility for your actions.WheelieMan said:
As I say above, the Sunday was specifically designed from the ground up for braking forces to be calculated into the suspension design and into the frame construction. If this is changed, we cannot warranty the effects of the changes. Sorry but this is how it is.
Personally, I would consider use of a Hopey as grounds for voiding a warranty on a front triangle. I have seen other frames (albeit ones w/ 1 1/8" HT's) have ovalization when used w/ a Hopey and other mfgrs have said before that they have seen ovalization on 1 1/8" HT's resulting from use of a Hopey. I have not seen a Hopey installed on a Sunday yet so I could not comment on longterm use. If the guys from Hopey wish to send one that we could test it for use, we would be glad to do so. However, until we can "approve" it I would not recommend it nor would I warranty a frame that used one.
Same goes for the floater. If Brian wishes to send one to dw and myself for testing he can do such.
The warranty info will be back onto the site soon. The guy who did the site for us unfortunately did not include the FAQ info on the 06 site that was formerly included on the 05 site.Salami said:
Warranty on Iron Horse frames is as follows:
alloy hardtail & suspension XC frames - 5 yrs
steel/cromoly frames - lifetime
DH/FR frames - 1yr
I would consider a "frame modification" to be any change that could be determined to be beyond the design scope and limitations of the frame while at the same time causing a negative effect on the structural integrity of the frame.scottishmark said:
All it takes is 5 minutes of your time to pick up the phone or type and email BEFORE you go and do something if you think it will potentially cause a problem. Save yourself the problems down the line and/or possible injury if your "modification" does cause an issue. Better safe than sorry I guess is the way we are looking at this situation.
-ska todd
I agree and I don't understand why people are getting upset. I think they are simply reserving the right to not warranty a frame if they determine that a floater or other mod played a role in a failure. People do all kinds of whacky stuff to their bikes, you can't anticipate every possible mod and write down in a warranty policy whether it's ok or not, a lot of warranty stuff is a judgment call based on the facts at hand. Based on what I've heard from many people, IH has good customer service. They might warranty a frame with a mod if they don't find a connection to the failure - but that should be their call, and maybe they don't want to say that after stating the formal policy. I might be giving them too much credit but I don't see these guys trying to weasel their way out of fixing a real defect.Transcend said:
Maybe it was just Todd's delivery.
ink:
I've not done a back to back with a 222 without, but my experience is that a floater makes a big difference.Transcend said:
My last 3 DH bikes have been: Coyote DH2, Orange 222 with floater and my current GT DHi.
The first day I ever rode that 222 was my first day on a bike for 9 months due to injury. The last bike I'd ridden had been my DH2. I took the 222 to a track in the UK (Combe Sydenham for UK monkeys). It's not an extreme track, it's not super rough or super steep. I had no expectations of my floater here, I'd got one in the hope it would help with the savage braking bumps in Morzine. Nevertheless, I'd not ridden more than 100m before I pulled on the brakes on a mildly rough section of track and shocked myself. I actually had to stop and get off and look at what I'd just ridden over. It was a complete revelation, my suspension had stayed completely active somewhere in a situation that I was (even after 9 months off the bike) used to being "skittish".
Sure, maybe it's just that my DH2 was rubbish under braking for some unknown reason... but then the two bikes had similar amounts of travel and pivot placement so I'm not seeing that.
I now ride a DHi and still find my rear-end being kicked around under braking, somethign that was completely absent in my time on the 222. I've actually just today emailed Brian about getting a floater for my DHi.
We absolutely want to put a floater on a Sunday. it's obviously been a very well recieved bike, and I'm sure it will be a good seller for years to come.ska todd said:
It appears that the frame warranty is only 1 year anyway, so as many of these bikes are now out of warranty , it is a minor point.
Would you do me a favor and drop me an email, bikes@therapycomponents.com.
I'd like to get a more formal introduction if I'm going to "quote" you to customers.
thanks,
Brian
Our goal is to minimize any intrusion or permanant modification to the frame, unless the attachment point is designed and made in cooperation with the bike company (like we've done wit Trek, Kona, Jamis and others, that actually build the frame with the provision for the floating brake rod attachment)Turd Ferguson said:
But I haven't finalized anything on the Sunday yet.
brian, im just wondering, have you ever ridden a sunday?