I'm honestly glad to see the cheap OEM overseas prices hit the US shores. I think I scored my complete XTs for like $120, when I bought them. Run them until they leak, replace.
Frankenbrakes and brake improvement discussion
- Thread starter Udi
- Start date
I bled up an old The One from 2009 and man, that is a good brake. I have a few more laying around.... Maybe I will swap out the M-8000 rear brake for an ancient The One? That is the sad state of mtb stuff these days.
However I may look into the Cura since it mineral oil. I forgot how much I hate DOT.
However I may look into the Cura since it mineral oil. I forgot how much I hate DOT.
Yeah I ran a set of those from 2011 for 5 years of hard use, only replaced one set of piston seals on the back caliper. If yours are still working I don't see why not. I think for high internal build quality, the only mainstream options are Hope and Formula. I'd look into the Tech3 E4 as an option too if buying new.
I prefer DOT because cleanup is water alone (I just keep a jug/bucket handy to pour on whatever or dip my hands in, neutralises it super fast) whereas mineral oil needs detergent and is much more of a pain if it gets on rotors or pads. But I think everyone is going mineral now for environmental reasons anyway.
Don't know. I never bled an old set of formulas. Two syringes, threaded hose end and no way to close off the system with the syringes attached? If so then yeah.
Their directions say to take the brake off and get the two open ports level with each other so your not gravity feeding fluid out of one the holes onto your shoe when you disconnect the second syringe. Kind of a pain. If you've got any secrets I'm all ears.
I do wish they had a threaded close off nipple like shimano and old hayes.
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I don't mind the Avid threaded port interface - gives a nice positive hose connection which is one less thing that can go wrong and ruin your day. But it would be better with some kind of stop valve that can be shut off as well. Has anyone tried the new Avid ultimate bleed system with the keyed port?
The Hopes use a shimano style close off nipple like Shimano and are pleasantly easy to bleed to a nice firm feel. if I was going to nitpick I'd say that the angled reservoir on the Tech3 lever doesn't suit my bar sweep so I have to rotate the bar to get the top of the reservoir horizontal.
As much as I prefer the two syringe method for cleanliness, the open master reservoir does mean you can be confident of no air bubbles being in there.
Yeah it seems like no matter what I do, either a little fluid leaks out meaning replaced by air, or I can watch the fluid retract which is still air introduction. It's kind of lame, just because there's a better way to do it. You could even do a nipple like shimano has but have threads on that too.
Yeah to be fair the Shimano/Hope/whatever style bleed nipples are probably fine 99% of the time. I've only had a hose pop off when I was using an old waste oil hose (they always tend to react with the oil/DOT and go hard af), or when I was attempting to syringe bleed upwards, or when I basically had too many workshop-skill-enhancing beers. It's just a crapshoot when it does happen and I'm always paranoid about DOT fluid going all over the place.
Did a good ride the other day with a lot of braking and it was evident how much better the Formula was over the M8000. Sad. My only real concern with swapping fully over to the older Ones is replacement parts. I don't think you can get lever blades for them anymore. The lever on those is like a skink tail. It had a predetermined fragile point on the lever to break off leaving just enough to kinda still use the lever. Nice to finish a ride, but a real pain to ride full time.
Sweet. If you're still happy with them, it's worth at least checking with your distributor re: spares, Formula distributors tend to hold spares for very old brakes and I had no trouble getting various small parts for mine even after they were long superseded.
I know what you mean about the lever. They ditched that breakaway point on the updated MC/lever (2010), and then in 2011 the MC got a volume upgrade, but the caliper stayed the same as yours apart from a small update to the internal bleed path. I have a pile of Formula stuff from that era sitting around including a complete set of The Ones, as well as some complete ROs, all still working.
I had a set of The Ones for years. Best feeling brake evar IMO.
I loaned them to a friend when his brakes failed the day before a Moab trip. He crashed and banged them up so he bought them from me, and they're still going strong years later.
I'd like to try the Cura, for no other reason than hoping that feel is there, and mineral oil.
I loaned them to a friend when his brakes failed the day before a Moab trip. He crashed and banged them up so he bought them from me, and they're still going strong years later.
I'd like to try the Cura, for no other reason than hoping that feel is there, and mineral oil.
They don't feel like dialed the ones, or xts.
They slow you down though.
I just put my old saint levers on the curas on my dh bike. Now the real test begins.
They slow you down though.
I just put my old saint levers on the curas on my dh bike. Now the real test begins.
Shimano calipers are the problem, not the solution.
Just got an evening lift session at northstar. So far so good on the shitmano levers/cura pinchers on the dh bike.
I can't get the levers very close to the bar though. I'm all about fist grip braking so I may just bend the levers in.
Just got an evening lift session at northstar. So far so good on the shitmano levers/cura pinchers on the dh bike.
I can't get the levers very close to the bar though. I'm all about fist grip braking so I may just bend the levers in.
Conditions?
Well shit, my brake woes seem to be from my pinned ("floating") rotor having developed play. Hope-clone rotors. Brake pads weren't the major culprit after all. I don't feel too bad having refreshed my calipers after 3 years, but at least I know the issue for sure now.
Hey @Sandwich I forget where I was talking about the power of the MT5s with you, but I noticed on the Enduro mag dyno, the MT5 actually didn't generate particularly impressive power on the dyno (~13% less than the M820, a good power benchmark) so that certainly backs up your comments.
I thought about it and all the ones I've ridden have been MT7s (since for the most part the only people I know who run Magura are sponsored riders). I thought they had good power but maybe the MT7s do have something over the 5s. Could just be the pad difference but I wonder if there's more to it - since Paul Aston made this point recently too. The levers suck balls either way though so who cares.
Anyway - while I don't think those dyno tests are without some flaws - I thought it was worth sharing that you probably weren't imagining things.
I thought about it and all the ones I've ridden have been MT7s (since for the most part the only people I know who run Magura are sponsored riders). I thought they had good power but maybe the MT7s do have something over the 5s. Could just be the pad difference but I wonder if there's more to it - since Paul Aston made this point recently too. The levers suck balls either way though so who cares.
Anyway - while I don't think those dyno tests are without some flaws - I thought it was worth sharing that you probably weren't imagining things.
thanks for the heads up. that is interesting. I like the brakes but they don't blow me away, but I just don't know that I have the experience with them/with a multitude of brakes to say it's lack of power. Whatever.
I have the new pads ready to go, so maybe I'll do the swap before my next day. I know that the levers on the mt7 are different enough that I can't buy reach adjustable levers for my mt5s, even if I'll willing to spend 60 fucking dollars for the fancy HC levers. At this point I'd rather just buy a new set of shimano levers or do the swap I've been clamming about for ages. I don't love the grabbiness of the shimano levers on my trail bike. #firstworldproblems. I'm mostly procrastinating because I may have to buy a new hose if it doesn't work out.
I have the new pads ready to go, so maybe I'll do the swap before my next day. I know that the levers on the mt7 are different enough that I can't buy reach adjustable levers for my mt5s, even if I'll willing to spend 60 fucking dollars for the fancy HC levers. At this point I'd rather just buy a new set of shimano levers or do the swap I've been clamming about for ages. I don't love the grabbiness of the shimano levers on my trail bike. #firstworldproblems. I'm mostly procrastinating because I may have to buy a new hose if it doesn't work out.
Like Udi said, my experience has been that Formula is really good about keeping spares for old models. They have a website you can buy spares directly from them. And they also have an eBay store you can buy stuff from, and the prices are really good. That's where I bought my two sets that I currently own. For example, they have a brand new front and rear 2016 T1's with TFRA and FCS for $250(only the brakes no rotors or adapters.), and 2017 Cura's for $260. And their customer service is top notch. I don't call anymore, I just have an email address for the east coast customer service rep and email him directly when I have a question or problem or need spares. I'm down big time for Formula. I ride T1's on my trail bike and R0's on the downhill bike. I too would like to try Cura's though, I see all the World Cup guys are using them. But I will use what i have for a while.
I tried calling their USA service center and got a voice messaging saying they were closing up shop and to order everything through QBP.
Off to ebay...
Found those lever blades and all the small parts on Formula's web store. Have to have shipped from Europe, but they have the lever blades! Yippee!
Off to ebay...
Found those lever blades and all the small parts on Formula's web store. Have to have shipped from Europe, but they have the lever blades! Yippee!
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https://www.pinkbike.com/news/loic-brunis-prototype-formula-brakes-lenzerheide-dh-world-cup-2017.html
Better pics of Bruni's 4 pot Formulas but no real info.
Caliper looks pretty nicely finished for a proto that has "no set plans to go into production" though...
Better pics of Bruni's 4 pot Formulas but no real info.
Caliper looks pretty nicely finished for a proto that has "no set plans to go into production" though...
I just built up another bike I need brakes for. I put some zee lever/M810 calipers I had on them and quickly remembered the leaky deathtraps that are shimano brakes.
I ordered some of those replacement pistons from china off ebay to maybe revive some xt calipers. I couldn't tell how many actually come in a set so I ordered 4 'units' of whatever. So I may have some extras when they get here if anyone cares.
I ordered some of those replacement pistons from china off ebay to maybe revive some xt calipers. I couldn't tell how many actually come in a set so I ordered 4 'units' of whatever. So I may have some extras when they get here if anyone cares.
FWIW, I tried Shimano road pads in my R0s. They do fit, but are a little narrower than the stock pads. I didn't have any issues on the rear, but the front would intermittently howl badly when I let off. I think that the pads are just narrow enough that they can get cocked at an angle when they retract and get wedged there. Back on stock pads and the issue is gone.
Yeah. The Formula metal pads are quite good anyway.
Definitely. I'd be hard pressed to tell the difference with the shimano ones. I'm not much of a brake dragger and haven't glazed a set of pads since 2002 so I'll probably put those in and see if that's it.
Interesting, I didn't have that issue but perhaps it's dependent on rotors too. I ran mine on the front.
In fairness (as I probably mentioned) those brakes got retired to my trailbike since I switched to 650b, and I went up to bigger Hayes calipers (with bigger pads) to get enough stopping power on the DH bike. I had no complaints with the stock ROs until I ditched 26" on the DH, then suddenly stopping became a problem on steeper stuff.
I found the Formula sintered compound good too (as good as Shimano) but the glazing became an issue for me. I recall Ben (bucko) having the same issue and he just bought the cheapest sintered pads he could find and replaced them regularly - i.e. well before wearing out. It's only a problem if you've got sustained braking descents tho, trailbike stuff usually doesn't create the same peak temps.
In fairness (as I probably mentioned) those brakes got retired to my trailbike since I switched to 650b, and I went up to bigger Hayes calipers (with bigger pads) to get enough stopping power on the DH bike. I had no complaints with the stock ROs until I ditched 26" on the DH, then suddenly stopping became a problem on steeper stuff.
I found the Formula sintered compound good too (as good as Shimano) but the glazing became an issue for me. I recall Ben (bucko) having the same issue and he just bought the cheapest sintered pads he could find and replaced them regularly - i.e. well before wearing out. It's only a problem if you've got sustained braking descents tho, trailbike stuff usually doesn't create the same peak temps.
Prime Pro. This was last year by the way.Primes Pro (2 bigger pistons) or Ace (quad piston) calipers?
Power went up for sure, but throw went up a little more than it should have thanks to the extra pad clearance (not just leverage change) which was fine for half a season but got a bit much after the inevitable lengthening that happens on the rear on most brakes (kinda why I was saying you really need to test each frankenbrake on the back of a DH bike for a chairlift season, not the front and not on a trailbike).
The other weird thing was, power and bite were good in the dry, but their stock full sintered pad was terrible in the wet (hugely dangerous actually) which was really surprising for any sintered. They seem to make two sintered compounds so maybe the other one works in the wet.
I will try something new next summer, not sure what yet.
1st I have to figure out how to mount this funky caliper to my fork lowers, I really do not want to face down the lowers to get rid of that 10mm difference (caliper made for 190/210 rotors - 888 lowers are made for 200mm PM). I won't put that combo on the back, because I don't need that much power there.
Hi new member here - very interested in the old post below. Has anyone put Shimano lever assemblies on Magura MT6 Next brakes... or other 2-piston MT Next series? (either Shimano Servo Wave or non-SW versions? Being just a 2-piston affair I'm not sure how servo wave would affect things.) Did some searching on here, and that linked German thread but no luck yet.
Was thinking about swapping in Magura's HC or HC3 levers... but you can get complete Zee lever assembly for nearly half their price. And I like shimano lever shape anyway. Thanks in advance!
Was thinking about swapping in Magura's HC or HC3 levers... but you can get complete Zee lever assembly for nearly half their price. And I like shimano lever shape anyway. Thanks in advance!
I switched my dh bike back to the formula pads and they're a little better with the post drag squeal but they still do it. Maybe the shimano ones make it worse but I've still got something preventing them from retracting I think.
Yeah, I think I spoke a little too soon too. Mine are a ton better with the Formula pads, but it's not 100% gone.
