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Fuck IMBA

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,022
9,682
AK
I think there is enough existing land outside of the wilderness areas that could be ripe for awesome trails, especially considering a lot of the stuff IN the wilderness areas is not suitable for bikes, either some blown-out hike, or scramble, or just a shitty trail all around. Rather than sit there for 20 years trying to get bikes on the PCT, I'd rather they build some epic trails in the Sierras, like connect the 50 and 80 corridors with some epic shit, etc.
 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
65,836
12,827
In a van.... down by the river
I think there is enough existing land outside of the wilderness areas that could be ripe for awesome trails, especially considering a lot of the stuff IN the wilderness areas is not suitable for bikes, either some blown-out hike, or scramble, or just a shitty trail all around. Rather than sit there for 20 years trying to get bikes on the PCT, I'd rather they build some epic trails in the Sierras, like connect the 50 and 80 corridors with some epic shit, etc.
Out here the issue is that a large portion of the fed lands are already under Wilderness Designation. And any new designations are bound to impact existing trail. And there are some *epic* singletrack trails locked up in the areas out here. I would love to see STC's idea of local-ish control of individual areas without the blanket ban.

And let's not forget - it WAS legal prior to the early 80's to ride mt bikes in Wilderness Areas. It was *NOT* the Wilderness Act itself that banned bicycles...
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,489
20,290
Sleazattle
I think there is enough existing land outside of the wilderness areas that could be ripe for awesome trails, especially considering a lot of the stuff IN the wilderness areas is not suitable for bikes, either some blown-out hike, or scramble, or just a shitty trail all around. Rather than sit there for 20 years trying to get bikes on the PCT, I'd rather they build some epic trails in the Sierras, like connect the 50 and 80 corridors with some epic shit, etc.

Yeah, I actually agree that bikes shouldn't be allowed in wilderness areas. I like places that require several days of hiking to get to, because no one else is there.
 

Pesqueeb

bicycle in airplane hangar
Feb 2, 2007
40,373
16,855
Riding the baggage carousel.
I know it's going to be an unpopular opinion here, but I don't think mountain bikes belong in wilderness areas, or national parks. That said, I don't think pack animals belong either, and that the argument that a bicycle is somehow more dangerous and/or destructive than a pack animal is fallacious, at best. The agencies that govern such things need to decide one way or another, either let in bikes, or kick out the animals.
 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
65,836
12,827
In a van.... down by the river
I know it's going to be an unpopular opinion here, but I don't think mountain bikes belong in wilderness areas, or national parks. That said, I don't think pack animals belong either, and that the argument that a bicycle is somehow more dangerous and/or destructive than a pack animal is fallacious, at best. The agencies that govern such things need to decide one way or another, either let in bikes, or kick out the animals.
I personally think that the way the National Parks do it today is how it should be patterned for Wilderness Areas. National Parks can allow bicycles on trails - and they do. RMNP is about to open a section of trail on the west side of the park to cycling. Mammoth Caves NP has a network of trails open to bikes. I'm sure that there are others.

The main reason I would like to see the rules amended, though - so I could *support* new WA designation without having trails made inaccessible. I would love to have more land protected without losing a preferred, low-impact, human-powered method of access.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,489
20,290
Sleazattle
I know it's going to be an unpopular opinion here, but I don't think mountain bikes belong in wilderness areas, or national parks. That said, I don't think pack animals belong either, and that the argument that a bicycle is somehow more dangerous and/or destructive than a pack animal is fallacious, at best. The agencies that govern such things need to decide one way or another, either let in bikes, or kick out the animals.
Yep, horses and mules should be in the same boat.

Still, Fuck IMBA
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,489
20,290
Sleazattle
Let's not forget cattle grazing.

We should probably face the facts - most Wilderness Areas aren't really wilderness.
Backpacking in the Tetons felt like I was really far away from mankind. It was cool and a little sad to be able to look up and see swarms of satellites zooming around.
 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
65,836
12,827
In a van.... down by the river
Backpacking in the Tetons felt like I was really far away from mankind. It was cool and a little sad to be able to look up and see swarms of satellites zooming around.
Yeah - it really doesn't take much effort (well, relatively speaking) to get "out there" in the West. Despite the doom-and-gloom that the general population eats up, there is a SHITLOAD of uninhabited, rugged land out here.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
54,489
20,290
Sleazattle
Yeah - it really doesn't take much effort (well, relatively speaking) to get "out there" in the West. Despite the doom-and-gloom that the general population eats up, there is a SHITLOAD of uninhabited, rugged land out here.
But there are some really special places that if they allowed easier access too, it wouldn't be so special. That Teton Trip was all in the back-country, but there was this one lake easily accessed by a spur trail. Never saw a soul on that trip except for that lake. It was packed with people. That whole loop I hiked could be ridden in a day, I could only imagine the amount of people who would be riding that trail.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,022
9,682
AK
Out here the issue is that a large portion of the fed lands are already under Wilderness Designation. And any new designations are bound to impact existing trail. And there are some *epic* singletrack trails locked up in the areas out here. I would love to see STC's idea of local-ish control of individual areas without the blanket ban.

And let's not forget - it WAS legal prior to the early 80's to ride mt bikes in Wilderness Areas. It was *NOT* the Wilderness Act itself that banned bicycles...
Out where? If it's in the Sierras, there are only fairly small isolated patches that are wilderness. Although this tends to be the highest high country, it's not all of it and there are corridors through the high country where trails could be built. With this in mind, connecting the 49, 80, 50, 88 corridors and other similar projects around California would be FAR more valuable than trying to get into the wilderness to ride the PCT and associated trails, many of which aren't suitable for riding anyway. There's a huge amount of mountain-land that isn't wilderness that could be used effectively, kind of like how they've done in Arizona, connecting several places in the state with the Arizona Trail, the Black Canyon trail running from near Prescott and Camp Verde all the way down to Phoenix and a few other similar routes. Colorado trail is another example. I find CA to be rather lacking in this regard, at least from my time growing up there, and in the bigger picture I would think that IMBAs time and energy would be better spent on projects like this across the country, rather than trying to get into the wilderness areas.
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,505
In hell. Welcome!
I would love to see STC's idea of local-ish control of individual areas without the blanket ban.

And let's not forget - it WAS legal prior to the early 80's to ride mt bikes in Wilderness Areas. It was *NOT* the Wilderness Act itself that banned bicycles...
This x 100. No one is asking bikes to be automatically allowed on all trails in all wilderness areas, but the current blanket non-negotiable ban just plain sucks.
 

stoney

Part of the unwashed, middle-American horde
Jul 26, 2006
21,653
7,329
Colorado
Don't forget IMBA isn't just about getting trail access; they have conservation aspects too. A few years ago, there was a bill going through to open up a huge amount of California wilderness to multi-purpose users. The catch was that it would also open it up to logging and mining. Between the moto groups, IMBA, and the Sierra Club, they all worked together to keep the area closed. It was better to not have access than to open it up to that kind of destruction.

There's give and take, and in the larger scale it's about finding a balance that keeps everybody (sans industrial) happy, even if you do give up some now.

While I don't agree with everything IMBA does, coming from a place where they provided massive amount of help in getting access, I still donate to the every year.
 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
65,836
12,827
In a van.... down by the river
Out where? If it's in the Sierras, there are only fairly small isolated patches that are wilderness. Although this tends to be the highest high country, it's not all of it and there are corridors through the high country where trails could be built. With this in mind, connecting the 49, 80, 50, 88 corridors and other similar projects around California would be FAR more valuable than trying to get into the wilderness to ride the PCT and associated trails, many of which aren't suitable for riding anyway. There's a huge amount of mountain-land that isn't wilderness that could be used effectively, kind of like how they've done in Arizona, connecting several places in the state with the Arizona Trail, the Black Canyon trail running from near Prescott and Camp Verde all the way down to Phoenix and a few other similar routes. Colorado trail is another example. I find CA to be rather lacking in this regard, at least from my time growing up there, and in the bigger picture I would think that IMBAs time and energy would be better spent on projects like this across the country, rather than trying to get into the wilderness areas.
Colorado - we have quite a few very large, contiguous WAs. As well as a lot of smaller ones. I'd love to see local federal land agencies at the helm of deciding bike/no-bike for the trails in these areas.
 

4130biker

PM me about Tantrum Cycles!
May 24, 2007
3,884
450
Heh?

i heard they got some sweet new IMBA spec trail on the Malheur wildlife refuge:
image.jpeg
 

StiHacka

Compensating for something
Jan 4, 2013
21,560
12,505
In hell. Welcome!
Don't forget IMBA isn't just about getting trail access; they have conservation aspects too. A few years ago, there was a bill going through to open up a huge amount of California wilderness to multi-purpose users. The catch was that it would also open it up to logging and mining. Between the moto groups, IMBA, and the Sierra Club, they all worked together to keep the area closed. It was better to not have access than to open it up to that kind of destruction.
Thanks for a good argument why your logic is flawed. There are shitloads of great hiking trails out there, and much lower mileage of epic singletrack in the great outdoors. If I am given the choice of a total, unavoidable loss of access for MTBs in my beloved riding area, or a (relatively low) risk that some of the area *might* be open to logging and mining, why would I choose the Wilderness route? Eliminate the 100% ban, give the power to local authorities to open/close access to trails that is based on practical consideration, show me that this is not just an trick, and I'll support the expansion of Wilderness to new areas like the biggest Sierra club bigot.

Until that happens, Wilderness == MTB death.
 

SkaredShtles

Michael Bolton
Sep 21, 2003
65,836
12,827
In a van.... down by the river
Yah - I would actually go a bit further and be OK with existing Wilderness Areas keeping existing regulations. But I'll be damned if I'll support any more WA designation with the current blanket ban in place.