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"Good" Muslims v. "Bad" Muslims

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,448
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Front Range, dude...
Interesting article from the Chicago SunTimes. Read and discuss...


Peaceful Muslims should turn their anger toward Islamofascists

September 18, 2006

BY MARY LANEY




Something's wrong. As I thumb through the pages of newspapers and magazines and flip through newscasts on radio and television, it seems that something is terribly wrong.


While the overwhelming majority of Muslims in America are peaceful citizens, their voices are not ringing out.

We are at war. Islamofascists have declared war on the United States and stated that they intend to kill all Americans. And they've shown us that they mean business.

We've just passed the anniversary of the worst attack on America in history, 9/11, when Muslim terrorists killed nearly 3,000 innocent men, women and children as they turned passenger planes into missiles. Yet the news is filled with stories of Muslims -- not loudly condemning the Muslim murderers -- but complaining of their treatment here and demanding Americans change their attitudes.

We Americans should change our attitudes? Terrorist cells have been discovered here. Plots to blow up bridges and the Sears Tower have been uncovered. Bomb-making supplies carried by Muslim terrorists have been stopped at our borders. A plot to bomb 10 airliners bound for the United States was foiled. Yet we Americans should change our attitudes?

America has opened its doors and universities to Muslims from foreign countries -- perhaps the best way for these students to see our freedoms and develop a new respect for our country. But where, I ask, is the returned show of support?

Pope Benedict is calling on moderate Muslims to speak out against the violent strain of Islam, calling jihad a movement against the nature of God. But where are the moderate Muslim voices here? Why aren't they speaking up to repudiate the kidnappings, suicide murders and beheadings done by Islamofascists?

For an answer, I went to the Web site of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, CAIR. But the CAIR site highlights a workshop on how to "Know Your Rights"; a section on "Political Empowerment"; a demand to put a Muslim holiday on all school calendars.

This past spring, Muslim students at Michigan State University held a protest -- not to decry Islamic terrorists -- but to speak out loudly against Danish cartoons depicting Mohammed as a terrorist. What's worse is this: When a tenured professor, I.S. Wichman, sent an e-mail to a student, the school's Muslim Student Association made the letter public and demanded that the professor be officially reprimanded.

What had Wichman written? He wrote that, more than being offended by the cartoons, he was offended "by beheadings of civilians, cowardly attacks on public buildings, suicide murderers, murders of Catholic priests (the latest in Turkey), burnings of Christian churches, the continued persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt, the imposition of Sharia law on non-Muslims, the rapes of Scandinavian girls and women, the murder of a film director in Holland, and the rioting and looting in France."

He went on to write, "If you do not like the values of the West -- see the First Amendment -- you are free to leave."

It seems that the students believe they have the right to protest cartoons, but professors don't have the right to speak out against murderous atrocities. Something's wrong.

To Michigan State's credit, the professor will not be reprimanded as he was exercising his right to free speech.

We are at war. Our soldiers are following the rules of war -- but their opposition is not.

CIA counterterrorism officers are buying private insurance to cover legal costs in case they are charged with a crime, as is being hinted at by some members of Congress who feel their interrogation techniques might be too "tough."

In Iraq, Americans have been kidnapped, tortured, beheaded, burned, hanged from bridges, dragged through streets. But the CIA's method of questioning a terrorist in a cold room while playing loud music is too "tough"?

We're fighting a war for civilization against an enemy bent on destroying it and creating an Islamic world based on a warped view of what true Islam is -- yet where are the voices of American Muslims condemning this enemy?

Something's wrong.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
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I think those voices are out there, you are right, not as much as they should be, I do agree, but it's not true that they do not exist. These are from the BBC's 'Have your say' feature, about teh pope.

The Pope was clearly quoting someone else, so this whole idea of him attacking the Islamic ideology is idiotic.

Being a muslim myself, I would advise others around the world to realise that no mater how close to our heart, our faith may be, those who dont' follow it are under no obligation whatsoever to respect, dignify or even accept such beliefs.

I request them to follow the example of none other than Mohammad (SAW) himself, to face harsh criticism and insults with dignity and forgiveness.

Ali Akbar, Stuttgart

Recommended by 747 people
Having read a transcript of the Pope's remarks, it is easy to see that no offence was intended. Raised as a Muslim I am often saddened by other Muslims protesting based on incorrect facts, and never protesting when our religion is used as a cover for mass murder. This is another example of a lack of faith from these fanatics, true faith cannot be brought down by comments, words or pictures. I just don't understand the reasoning behind inflicting suffering and hatred, how can this be God's will?

Saj Khan, Sydney Australia

Recommended by 657 people
The Pope has made comments which demand an apology.

But it is okay for us Muslims to slate every other religion in the World though? Hypocrisy?

Perhaps if us good Muslims slated the evil comments made by other bad Muslims then non-Muslims may empathise with us and not see this as double standards.

I do not however hold my breath as it appears we are always playing the victim culture whilst doing awful things ourselves. This reflects badly on our peaceful religion.

Abbas, Cumbria

Recommended by 319 people
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
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As soon as i read the word "Islamofascist" I kind of switch off as I know the following is going to be a right-wing rant by yet another pink faced squealing frother.
 

MudGrrl

AAAAH! Monkeys stole my math!
Mar 4, 2004
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Boston....outside of it....
I think all of the "good" muslims will be forgiven after they crawl on their hands and knees to each "freedom loving american"household and apologize for 9/11 personally.



Yeah, religion is dumb.
 

Old Man G Funk

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Nov 21, 2005
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I don't remember that happening. I do remember a certain poll not too long ago where Christians were more receptive of torture than others in this country, probably because it was those Muslim heathens being tortured.

It's pretty apparent though that this guy is on the Team America bandwagon to the point that he thinks that everything we do is good and right be default. Apparently locking up citizens without charges for years on end simply because they are the wrong religion shouldn't be a cause for concern for people of that same religion?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
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This guy is a complete frother. Do Christians come out and denounce other Christians when an abortion clinic is bombed?
seems that we both have selective memory, so i'll ask for your help.

what christian has bombed an abortion clinic? (before you say "eric rudolph", understand his motivations were more political than religious, and i've yet to find a profession of his faith)
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
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seems that we both have selective memory, so i'll ask for your help.

what christian has bombed an abortion clinic? (before you say "eric rudolph", understand his motivations were more political than religious, and i've yet to find a profession of his faith)
See the post just above yours.
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
This guy is a complete frother. Do Christians come out and denounce other Christians when an abortion clinic is bombed?
So your comparing the bombing on one abortian clinic to flying planes into the twin towers, bombings in big citys, suicide bombings on a daily basis, burning down churches, shooting nuns, shooting at churches, home videos of decapitations, Muslim leaders calling on people to fight in the Jihad against the west, kill the pope, blow themselves up in busstations and even destroy everyone who is not a Muslim in the name of allah and Islam?
Yeah Id say thats a pretty good comparison...
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
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So your comparing the bombing on one abortian clinic to flying planes into the twin towers, bombings in big citys, suicide bombings on a daily basis, burning down churches, shooting nuns, shooting at churches, home videos of decapitations, Muslim leaders calling on people to fight in the Jihad against the west, kill the pope, blow themselves up in busstations and even destroy everyone who is not a Muslim in the name of allah and Islam?
Yeah Id say thats a pretty good comparison...
Mulitple abortion clinics actually.

I haven't seen the movie, yet, but at first glance it looks like this is the exact same thing from a Christian perspective as what the fundamentalist Muslim leaders do in countries like Saudi Arabia. Sure, the Muslim have a head start, but how long until we have factions that are on par? They are making "warriors for Christ"? How long until those "warriors" actually pick up arms and fight for Christ through violence?

Edit: And, the abortion clinic example is just one where it already happens. If I wanted another example I might point at Bush declaring that god told him to invade Iraq.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
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So your comparing the bombing on one abortian clinic to flying planes into the twin towers, bombings in big citys, suicide bombings on a daily basis, burning down churches, shooting nuns, shooting at churches, home videos of decapitations, Muslim leaders calling on people to fight in the Jihad against the west, kill the pope, blow themselves up in busstations and even destroy everyone who is not a Muslim in the name of allah and Islam?
Yeah Id say thats a pretty good comparison...
Well, its valid in that people are murdering one another "in the name of god" and that's ****ed up either way. A bomb is a bomb and a religious nut is a religious nut. Scale is the only real difference.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
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See the post just above yours.
i did; she was convicted of multiples arsons from almost 20 yrs ago.

is that all you got?

** ok, full disclosure time: when i was a roadie-fhag, by weird coincidence, i had the opportunity to ride with david gunn's son (i think he was also named dave), only a month after his father was shot to death **

here's a list of abortion doctor murders:
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/murders.asp

now, of these (edit) 5 murders - averaging one death every few years just to put things in perspective - don't exactly seem to square to many thousands of deaths per annum in the name of allah [most merciful]
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
Ah multiple clinics. That makes such a difference.
Allthough I understand your point I dont think this is in the same ballpark.
I still think Muslims should let themselves be heard about this.
We sure as hell hear from them when a cartoon of Muhammed hits the papers or when the Pope makes a dumb statement so why dont we hear them about the so called Muslims who are killing and fighting their Jihad in the name of Islam and Allah?
Bush and his policy on terrorist threats are getting so much trash talk on the internet by christians (and all people except N8 for that matter) but I see nothing of that by Muslims on terrorists just to name a small example...
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
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Orange County, CA
You don't hear Muslims speak up about this because they are pissed off at the Pope. He insulted them! Quite frankly, I don't give a flying fvck, but they do.

There might be 5 or 6 who think this is a bad thing, but that's it. Same thing with Christians. When a doctor gets shot, most of them don't feel too bad because he was killing innocent babies! So you don't get Christians marching in the streets condemning the shooter. And the few that do the evangelical types probably don't consider to be "true" Christians anyways.

Now, why the scale difference that BS points out? Christians are comfortable. They have Wal-Mart, McDonalds, and Albertson's vodka.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
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TN
You don't hear Muslims speak up about this because they are pissed off at the Pope. He insulted them! Quite frankly, I don't give a flying fvck, but they do.

There might be 5 or 6 who think this is a bad thing, but that's it. Same thing with Christians. When a doctor gets shot, most of them don't feel too bad because he was killing innocent babies! So you don't get Christians marching in the streets condemning the shooter. And the few that do the evangelical types probably don't consider to be "true" Christians anyways.

Now, why the scale difference that BS points out? Christians are comfortable. They have Wal-Mart, McDonalds, and Albertson's vodka.
Right. Christians arent exactly politically and economically frustrated to the point of violence at this time. That could change if the queers get married tho.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
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i did; she was convicted of multiples arsons from almost 20 yrs ago.
Perhaps you missed the 4th page and the left side of the first page?
here's a list of abortion doctor murders:
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/murders.asp

now, of these (edit) 5 murders - averaging one death every few years just to put things in perspective - don't exactly seem to square to many thousands of deaths per annum in the name of allah [most merciful]
Or the thousands of deaths that have occurred because Bush's god told him to kill all those people?

I think both sides should be up in arms about these sorts of things if they truly are about peace. Personally, I have my doubts as to the peacefulness of either religion. Both seem to be formed from blood to worship war gods. My point though was that this guy is basically employing a double standard. In his perception, America is some great Christian nation (I'll go out on a limb and say that he thinks we are a "Christian" nation) that can do no wrong. Therefore we have nothing to apologize for. Whereas those Muslims are a bunch of savages and it's proven by the fact that the media doesn't print stories about everyday Muslims that live very much like everyday people here.
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
0
In a handbasket
Ah multiple clinics. That makes such a difference.
Allthough I understand your point I dont think this is in the same ballpark.
I still think Muslims should let themselves be heard about this.
Agreed, they should be heard, but it seems hypocritical to denounce Muslims while thinking that your own sh*t don't stink.
We sure as hell hear from them when a cartoon of Muhammed hits the papers or when the Pope makes a dumb statement so why dont we hear them about the so called Muslims who are killing and fighting their Jihad in the name of Islam and Allah?
And, we should. I wonder if it doesn't sell as well in the media, however.
Bush and his policy on terrorist threats are getting so much trash talk on the internet by christians (and all people except N8 for that matter) but I see nothing of that by Muslims on terrorists just to name a small example...
A recent poll showed that Christians were much more likely to support Bush's policies on torture than non-Christians. It was on RM not too long ago. I think Silver started the thread.
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
Agreed, they should be heard, but it seems hypocritical to denounce Muslims while thinking that your own sh*t don't stink.

And, we should. I wonder if it doesn't sell as well in the media, however.

A recent poll showed that Christians were much more likely to support Bush's policies on torture than non-Christians. It was on RM not too long ago. I think Silver started the thread.
Too be honest I personally think our **** thinks more then that of Islam.
They have a lot of catching up to do if they wanna catch up with Christianity pushing their religion up on the world by force.
Talk about a hypocrite pope blaming Muslims of spreading their religion by the sword...
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
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Too be honest I personally think our **** thinks more then that of Islam.
They have a lot of catching up to do if they wanna catch up with Christianity pushing their religion up on the world by force.
Talk about a hypocrite pope blaming Muslims of spreading their religion by the sword...
so, if bellum sacrum is declared at the council of claremont, that forever tarnishes any authority the pope has on the topic of spreading one's faith by force?

do you not realize major crusades were in response to muslim aggression?

if you don't, this thinking is dangerously close to flippantly calling israel occupiers of land they won when war was waged upon them.


oh, crap, look what i started...
 

Kevin

Turbo Monkey
so, if bellum sacrum is declared at the council of claremont, that forever tarnishes any authority the pope has on the topic of spreading one's faith by force?

do you not realize major crusades were in response to muslim aggression?

Id like to know your source on this...
Have you by any chance read "The clash of civilizations and the remaking of world order" by Samuel P Huntington?
Its about world politics after the cold war and the way different cultures or civilizations are interacting with eachother and how they are clashing with eachother because of cultural differences.
Its really insightfull and I highly reccomend it to anyone who takes interest in these thing or wants to get involved in discussions like this...
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
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In a handbasket
if you don't, this thinking is dangerously close to flippantly calling israel occupiers of land they won when war was waged upon them.


oh, crap, look what i started...
Indeed, let's not go down that road. If you want to discuss that, there are plenty of other threads that were recently alive that you could use.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
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Id like to know your source on this...
various compilations of historical record over the last ~1400 yrs.
Have you by any chance read "The clash of civilizations and the remaking of world order" by Samuel P Huntington?
Its about world politics after the cold war and the way different cultures or civilizations are interacting with eachother and how they are clashing with eachother because of cultural differences.
Its really insightfull and I highly reccomend it to anyone who takes interest in these thing or wants to get involved in discussions like this...
i have recently had this recommended to me, & do find the premise interesting: that the clashes happen without respect to geopolitical boundaries, & the west is doomed if it fails to shore up in light of this. (and people call neo-cons alarmists!) of course, the west would sacrifice meddling in others' affairs, and thereby lose influence.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
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http://spot.colorado.edu/~chernus/NewspaperColumns/WarInIraq/DidGodTalkToBush.htm

Although the author dismisses the importance of it by the end of the essay, it looks as though he said it. I, however, don't dismiss the importance of him saying it, especially in light of all the other comments he has made.
one thing that has to be factored is that if he in indeed led by his faith, then he is either obedient to his faith-based ideology, or a traitor to it.

a razor's edge...
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
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one thing that has to be factored is that if he in indeed led by his faith, then he is either obedient to his faith-based ideology, or a traitor to it.

a razor's edge...
Man, why do things have to be black or white?

Certainly performing his job and doing what is best for the country might be considered what god would want, but might come in conflict with what he thinks is in god's best interest at times. Wouldn't that constitute a time when things were at least a little shade of gray?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
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Man, why do things have to be black or white?

Certainly performing his job and doing what is best for the country might be considered what god would want, but might come in conflict with what he thinks is in god's best interest at times. Wouldn't that constitute a time when things were at least a little shade of gray?
if he claims to be a fundamentalist christian, there's little (if any) wiggle room for abeyance, no?

put another way: is bikerfox a member of the mountain biking community just b/c he gets his candyass on a bike?
 

Old Man G Funk

Choir Boy
Nov 21, 2005
2,864
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if he claims to be a fundamentalist christian, there's little (if any) wiggle room for abeyance, no?

put another way: is bikerfox a member of the mountain biking community just b/c he gets his candyass on a bike?
I don't know. Does Bikerfox ride trails?

It's not so cut and dried as you try to make it. What is at issue, however, is that 2 witnesses said that Bush claimed god directly told him to deal with Saddam. If that is true, then he killed, what, 100 times the amount that the Muslim fundamentalists killed in 9/11 and all in the name of Christian fundamentalism?
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
I don't know. Does Bikerfox ride trails?

It's not so cut and dried as you try to make it. What is at issue, however, is that 2 witnesses said that Bush claimed god directly told him to deal with Saddam. If that is true, then he killed, what, 100 times the amount that the Muslim fundamentalists killed in 9/11 and all in the name of Christian fundamentalism?
of course far more muslims have been killed by other muslims than killed by any Crusader...
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
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TN
of course far more muslims have been killed by other muslims than killed by any Crusader...
Oh come on N8, Islam is a "religion of peace" its those damn evil christians who make the world bad.:clue: :biggrin: