[Spunger]

Well after my latest attempt with syringes and trying to get my back brake bled correctly I had no luck. I tried everything from tilting the bike up and pushing fluid out until there's no air, to having the bike level, to having the brakes completly off the bike alltogether. I still have a shotty lever feel. Nothing seems to change at the lever. It is still mushy feeling. Never goes to the bar though, just is always mushy feeling.

Before I go replacing parts here is what I came up with.

The pistons, well they never seem to seat all the way back (as if air is getting into the system somewhere). I can push them in to have them semi come back out. I am thinking that is where my air is cause everytime I open up the bleeder some air comes out. I know there is no air in the lever. I pump and pump until it is clean.

I went through the process of sucking all the old fluid out (which is new fluid since I haven't gotten things right I haven't really ridden it hard). I pump new stuff in, no air bubbles.

So this is my last idea/attempt before taking it someplace and having it done. At this point I need to re-teflon tape the bleeder itself so I know no air is comming from there. I'll follow the instructions again and set everything back up. I'll try my best without making a mess to push those pistons back in and pray they stay and not work themselfs back out. IF all else fails it's time to replace the pistons and their seals and replace the hose and see where it goes.

I just wanted to vent a-little how difficult this has been. My new brakes on the other bike worked flawlessly. Not one re-bleed, not one oops, it just went together like it is suspsoe to. The brakes on this bike are just the biggest POS. The front one is nice and crisp, the back one never wants to bleed correctly. At the price for a hayes brake to rebuild or replace units it's cheaper to just buy another brake setup from hayes then to dick with replacing pistons and hoses and lever parts.

ANy tips/suggestions for getting all the air out. The air seems to set in around the pistons. Atleast that is where I think I can feel it.

And NO I will not buy Hopes, atleast not yet

 

[Zark]

I think you're trying too hard Chris. The best Hayes bleeds are done with old fluid, when rushed right before a ride, and usually in a parking lot.

If you want, I'll take a look at 'em tonight, no charge.

 

[Spunger]

I'm gonna take you up on that offer.

I can't figure out what the hell is wrong with them. I know that I push all the fluid out. I have the mess to show it. The lever just never feels right. And I am scared to go really ride it and have something happen (i.e. I can't stop). I rode from mission to IV the other day and was stoked for the sun light to be out, but thank god I didn't have to stop fast. I would have been in for it.

I'll PM you with details

 

[zedro]

yeah, it took me a few hours once.

I suggest you clean the system by pumping new fluid through, you might see alot of junk come out. Also tap the caliper and lever with a small spanner and shake the housing as your filling to free any trapped bubbles.

 

[Zark]

I wonder if the brake line is hemorraging (sp?) internally. Look for any swelling areas in the line maybe...

Its probably something simple (I hope)

 

[buildyourown]

If you have a spare brake, do the elimination method. Swith the lever body. Does the brake still feel mushy? NO? Then its probably your master cyclinder. Yes? Then its probably your slave. Master cylinders are cheap but rarely go. Calipers can be rebuilt by hayes for reasonable cost. Go through your LBS.

 

[arcteryx33]

Use the bottle and squeeze for 5 secs than let off, and repeat. When you let off the air that is in the caliper will get pulled out into the bottle. It is impossible to push the air from the caliper all the way ou tthe lever. If you follow the instructions that come with a hayes bleed kit it works perfectly.

 

[AZRacerX]

Which lever/caliper do you have? I recently bled my new Mag Plus brakes and it took forever. After I was done they felt like crap, but I went riding anyway because I got tired of screwing with it. Well after 1 ride the caliper pistons have reseated themselves (I'm assuming anyway) and the brakes feel great now. It is a bit of a mystery, I'll admit. Other than that, just keep working with the syringe to push/pull the fluid back and forth to try to get the air bubbles out. Someone at my LBS told me the other day that you can try closing off the lever and forcing additional fluid into the caliper and close it off while the fluid is under pressure. I haven't tried that but he said it has worked a few times.

 

[def]

I'm no where near an expert, but I've pulled the caliper halfs apart and popped the pistons out. Clean them up good and put them back in. Put the halves back together and rebleed. And while bleeding, squeeze the lever to the bar once or twice while forcing fluid through to help get some more bubbles out. I've done this on hayes and hopes. But I also hate bleeding hayes. And also, I just ran into this the other night, make sure there is a way for air to release from the catch jar where the old fluid is comming out. I did it the other night where that was tight and there was so much pressure by the time I was finishing, I couldn't get anymore fluid into the system and the bleed hose blew off shooting brake fluid all over the shop...and myself.

 

[zedro]

Originally posted by AZRacerX
Well after 1 ride the caliper pistons have reseated themselves (I'm assuming anyway) and the brakes feel great now. It is a bit of a mystery, I'll admit.

i've had a similar situation. When i was bleeding the brakes, i noticed the fluid was a bit foamy (could see lots of micro-bubbles, but just barely). The lever was a bit mushy and i couldnt get an improvement. Well after a ride they got crisp and were on par.

I'm guessing that since its an open system, trapped bubbles can be vibrated to the top of the lines during a ride and may eventually reach the reservoir, out of the system and no longer a problem.

I've had other weird problems like when the bike isnt in use overnight, the following day the lever contact point would go almost to the bar, but still stay firm with no indication of air in the system. Then i would simply have to flip the lever up and mini-karate chop the lever real fast and the lever would pump up and contact at the usual spot for the rest of the day. I never did figure out how it was possible when the pads never changed their initial position.

 

[Renegade]

It took me a while to learn how to bleed my hayes, but I came up with a technique that has NEVER FAILED me.
Do everything that you allready do, remove the pads from the caliper, and REMOVE THE CALIPER FROM THE BIKE. Air gets trapped in there in all the nooks and crannies.
When you are pumping fluid into the caliper, hold it so that the fill point is at the lowest point. When you are drawing fluid out of the caliper in the hope of drawing out air, rotate your hand to position the caliper so that the fill point is at the highest position. Do this a few times.

I spent hours trying to bleed hayes before I started doing this. Now I can bleed a hayes in less than five minutes.
Good luck!

 

[Incubus]

Originally posted by zedro
...Then i would simply have to flip the lever up and mini-karate chop the lever real fast...

LOL... I bet that the lever is happy it wasn't a full-on karate chop.

 

[zedro]

Originally posted by Incubus
LOL... I bet that the lever is happy it wasn't a full-on karate chop.

oh one day it may see the fists of death....

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by stoney98
dont you mean Does Suck?
Buy hope!

 

[Spunger]

Well we're gonna start off with letting Zark look at it before we go and settle on Hopes. I dunno if I'd want one bike with Hayes and one with Hopes. Too many mix match parts.

I could see a set of the mini's on the cortina and a set of the mono6's on M1. I'd be out like a grand when I was done though


I have a feeling someone with more Hayes experience in person might help out. I have all the spare parts thank god for hayes.

 

[buildyourown]

Originally posted by zedro

I'm guessing that since its an open system, trapped bubbles can be vibrated to the top of the lines during a ride and may eventually reach the reservoir, out of the system and no longer a problem.

Hayes aren't really an open system the same way car brakes are. They have a flexible bladder that allows for fluid expansion. However, the volume of brake fluid is sealed from air. Otherwise, if the bike were to go upside down in storage or in a crash, the system would ingest air.

 

[zedro]

Originally posted by buildyourown
Otherwise, if the bike were to go upside down in storage or in a crash, the system would ingest air.

i've heard that happening as well.

Hayes do have a type of reservoir, without looking at at diagram you can tell by the way you fill them up; the fill hole at the master is not a pressurized fitting, it mearly keeps the liquid from spilling out. I'm not sure what mechanism regulates the flow between the system and reservoir, but the reservoir does exist.

Hayes used to have a diagram on their old site, cant find it anymore.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Have I ever made the comment that Hopes are very easy to service and bleed?

 

[Inclag]

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
Have I ever made the comment that Hopes are very easy to service and bleed?

Yes you have, and Hayes are cake when it comes to bleeding as well

 

[DßR]

Originally posted by zedro
i've heard that happening as well.

Hayes do have a type of reservoir, without looking at at diagram you can tell by the way you fill them up; the fill hole at the master is not a pressurized fitting, it mearly keeps the liquid from spilling out. I'm not sure what mechanism regulates the flow between the system and reservoir, but the reservoir does exist.

Hayes used to have a diagram on their old site, cant find it anymore.

Yeah, I thought that there is a reservoir, the diaphragm/bladder guy just changes the size of the resi. The mechanism that regulates flow is that when the lever is in the neutral position (i.e. all the way out) there's an open hole between the M/C piston and the resi, so hot expanded fluid can go into the resi. When you pull the lever, the hole closes off.

If this is basic crap you already knew, sorry....

 

[ChrisRobin]

Originally posted by Zark
I think you're trying too hard Chris. The best Hayes bleeds are done with old fluid, when rushed right before a ride, and usually in a parking lot.

EXACTLY! The last time I bled one of my brakes was in a parking lot and it worked on the first try.

It's weird though...I know people that have such a hard time bleeding Hayes sometimes while I and a couple of other people I know never really have any issues. The most it takes is two tries.

Don't worry about Hopes, Hayes has the majority and that's where all the power is.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by Inclag
Yes you have

Just checking

 

[DLo]

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
Have I ever made the comment that Hopes are very easy to service and bleed?

I don't believe it. I tried to bleed my rear brake last summer 3 times and I couldn't get it. Or it could just be that I'm an idiot.

I will say one thing. Hope CS rocks. I only had to pay shipping and they got my brakes back to me workin perfectly.

Any luck on those Hayes?

 

[Zark]

Originally posted by DLo
Any luck on those Hayes?

I bled them last night, they feel pretty much like Hayes now. Nice, snappy engagement point. I tried some different things like using a syringe to fill it, what a mess. So I used the old botttle method and it seemed to do the trick. Chris's bike ( Cortina Joyride ) Has a lot of funky bends in the hose where aire could get trapped. Straightening the bends seemed to help.

If there are still problems I'll have to start tearing apart the system to find them, but I don't think it'll be needed.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by Zark
I bled them last night, they feel pretty much like Hayes now. Nice, snappy engagement point. I tried some different things like using a syringe to fill it, what a mess. So I used the old botttle method and it seemed to do the trick. Chris's bike ( Cortina Joyride ) Has a lot of funky bends in the hose where aire could get trapped. Straightening the bends seemed to help.

If there are still problems I'll have to start tearing apart the system to find them, but I don't think it'll be needed.

Gotta love the Hope power bleeder too bad it won't work for Hayes

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by DLo
I don't believe it. I tried to bleed my rear brake last summer 3 times and I couldn't get it. Or it could just be that I'm an idiot.

I will say one thing. Hope CS rocks. I only had to pay shipping and they got my brakes back to me workin perfectly.

Any luck on those Hayes?

If you ever have a problem again let me know, I'll fix them for you.

 

[Zark]

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
Gotta love the Hope power bleeder too bad it won't work for Hayes

I'm sure it gets lots of use with those fussy Hopes

Seriously, I haven't seen a Hope brake that didn't have a bad bleed or squealed like a stuck pig. Swapping caliper halves cause you got a different fork, parts that no one stocks, expensive freakin pads. How many hassles can these be worth?

It took one bleed and Chris's brakes are dialed in, Thanks Hayes

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by Zark
I'm sure it gets lots of use with those fussy Hopes

Seriously, I haven't seen a Hope brake that didn't have a bad bleed or squealed like a stuck pig. Swapping caliper halves cause you got a different fork, parts that no one stocks, expensive freakin pads. How many hassles can these be worth?

It took one bleed and Chris's brakes are dialed in, Thanks Hayes

I'll be honest, I've seen several bad factory bleeds, I won't deny it. My rear M6 had a bad factory bleed, in 20min it was all fixed Yes parts are a little more expensive and more rare to walk into your LBS and find, but when working and set up correct nothing beats them.

 

[zedro]

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
I'll be honest, I've seen several bad factory bleeds, I won't deny it. My rear M6 had a bad factory bleed, in 20min it was all fixed Yes parts are a little more expensive and more rare to walk into your LBS and find, but when working and set up correct nothing beats them.

i'm surprised they're factory bled. I know it seems like a bonus for newbies, but then you see them riding around with 2 feet of excess hose stickin out everywhere.

 

[roee]

[THREAD HIJACKING NINJA IN WORK]

I'm getting a set of MonoMinis for my P3, sold the HFX9.. First, I HOPE its gonna be an imporvment (har har).

After getting that part of my chest,
What do I need for bleeding them? Is there a kit for doing that?
Whats the kits price?

Thanks!

 

[El Jefe]

Originally posted by arcteryx33
Use the bottle and squeeze for 5 secs than let off, and repeat. When you let off the air that is in the caliper will get pulled out into the bottle. It is impossible to push the air from the caliper all the way ou tthe lever. If you follow the instructions that come with a hayes bleed kit it works perfectly.

Yeah, drawing the air from the caliper back in the bottle is key to a good bleed.

One thing I've done on sets of Hayes that have seen better days, is to simply clean the calipers and pistons. taking the caliper off the frame, reomoving the pads, sqeezing the lever just a bit to expose a good portion of the pistons (but not so much that I can't get a spacer in there to push them back) and then cleaning them. I use rubbing alcohol, a clean rag and q-tips to get all the crap outta there that can interfere with proper function. Then, I dip a qtip in brake fluid, and dress the piston ever so lightly, looking of course for any snags or uneven wear that could indicate a leak. After I dress the piston with the fluid laced q-tip, I push the piston back in using either the big flat part of one of my cone wrenches, or a Hayes brake spacer. I then wipe the caliper down once again to remove any excess fluid that may have been squeegied out when I reset the pistons, replace the pads, re-mount the calipers, and do a normal bleed with fresh DOT 4 from the auto parts store. If your fluid is old and has been opened and exposed to air, you need to toss it and get a new bottle. That stuff is cheap, so don't worry about having to get new stuff every time.

 

[DLo]

Originally posted by Brian HCM#1
If you ever have a problem again let me know, I'll fix them for you.

You don't know what you just got yourself into. I do actually

 

[Dartman]

Something that hasn't been mentioned here is to flick the lever (unless that was what karate chop meant) while bleeding to shock loose the bubbles in the system. Just squeeze gently and let it snap back quickly. Repeat about 3 times.

Also a note about the bladder and master cylinder. It doesn't take much squeeze on the lever to close off the hole preventing expansion of fluid into the bladder. So if you're in the habit of nursing the levers while riding remember to release them occasionally to allow the fluid to expand off.

Also something I've seen several times is the inner liner of the hose will leak fluid under the outer casing. The lever will go to the bar, and again once after refilling the system with fluid, then after adding fluid the third time the outer casing blows when the lever is squeezed hard. Usually all over you, your kitchen, and hopefully not while riding. This usually happens where the hose is kinked or zip-tied too tight to the lowers of your fork or frame.

Mike

 

[ioscope]

BRIAN... I tried to be tolerant, but STFU about the F**** HOPES!!! GO*****MIT!!!