You asked for it, ya got it.
How the US saved the World (WWII debate)
- Thread starter BurlyShirley
- Start date
Only to start WW3
Can we have a "Why Should We Invade Canada" thread?Originally posted by SandMan
Only to start WW3
...and at the expense of 100,000+ Japanese civilians.
Yeah that is too bad.
Although, its certainly better than complete extermination.
Ohio, your regularly-scheduled self-flagellation must last well into the night.
Nah, no guilt for me. My ancestors were too busy being exterminated to oppress the Japanese-Americans.Originally posted by llkoolkeg
Ohio, your regularly-scheduled self-flagellation must last well into the night.
I'm actually all about national pride. No other country could have given me the opportunities I've had, but that doesn't mean my pride has to border on jingoism. A true patriot recognizes what we did wrong as well as what we did right.
Yes
True, but to pretend our motives ever had anything to do with saving Jews is delusional. Our liberation of the camps was incidental to our involvement in the war...
Survivors will always be thankful (more than we could ever imagine) to the soldiers that ended their horror, but ask them if they're thankful to the politicians that allowed it to last as long as it did, while it killed off everyone and everything they knew and loved.
Anyway, like I've said before, the Revolutionary War and WWII were the only two truly just and necessary wars in our history.
I think you might be forgetting panama.
Rrrright.
So the fact that we saved it for the wrong reasons changes the fact we saved it?
Now im confused.
So the fact that we saved it for the wrong reasons changes the fact we saved it?
Now im confused.
Nope, but you don't pat yourself on the back for something you did by accident. At least I don't.
The US government knew the Jews were being exterminated and did nothing. The fact that they were liberated in the process of defeating Germany after we let 6 million of them be slaughtered is nothing to congratulate ourselves for. Better-than-nothing does not equal heroism.
We did some things right (beat Germany), and we did some things wrong (let Jews be murdered)... it's okay to admit that.
Did'nt the US stay out of the war as long as it did due to some of the very same arguments we are hearing today?
It isn't our problem.
They aren't a real threat to us.
What business is it of ours?
We shouldn't interfere in the affairs of other nations.
Involvement will only cause retribution against us and our interests.
So if we are wrong now, were we wrong then?
It isn't our problem.
They aren't a real threat to us.
What business is it of ours?
We shouldn't interfere in the affairs of other nations.
Involvement will only cause retribution against us and our interests.
So if we are wrong now, were we wrong then?
Excellent point DT
You really can't compare the Nazi Germany and Iraq.
Let's wait until we can.
You are right, the US does not want Iraq to control so much of the oil.
Yes, we also dont want them terrorizing Jews.
I was going to stay out of this.
What should they have done? Its one thing to know something but its another all together to do something about it.
Most of these camps (at least the ones that the US was in a position to liberate) were deep within Germany and Czechoslovakia. The remainder were within Poland.
You could have mounted an airborne operation over the heart of Germany to drop an airborne division on top of one of these camps. Of course the a large percentage of that force wouldn't have even made it to the jump zone. Then once the remaineder was spread out over a 25 mile area around the camp, it would have had to linked up to provide some sort of cohesive defense. And don't forget this would be right into the heart of Germany on top of all sorts of Germany army units. Then tried like hell to drive an armored force towards them to relieve them before it was destroyed. All of which would have accomplished NOTHING. You have to look no farther than operation Market Garden to see how such an operation would have worked. Oh something else would have been accomplished, the Germans would have started quicker on covering up what they had done.
You seem to think that things can only have one goal and that everything else is just an accident. God forbid that any of those directing these efforts might have any decency in their hearts and seeing the bigger picture to include all of the things that might be accomplished by fulfilling that "one" goal. Or that when they came up with the "one" goal that other factors might have come into play in determining the "one" goal.
Lastly, for congratulating ourselves, you are 100% correct about that. The fact of the matter is that it should have never gotten that far. The whole damn thing shouldn't have gotten beyond 1937. Someone with the courage of conviction should have rolled Hitler's ass then and it would have been moot. Samething with Japan. It had become painfully obvious with their invasion of China they needed to dealt with. BUT folks were too busy looking for the diplomatic way, let's see if we can talk him out of his agression, if we continue to talk maybe that will work, they aren't a threat to me, need I go on or should I just recycle the language in your own posts. No wait I just did.
Minimizing the accomplishments of US forces in World War II is just as bad as overstating them.
Let me know if you are ever going to be in San Jose. I want to buy you a beer.
Bravo man.
Hello, Earth to DT, Germany declared war on you, the Japanese attacked you. You should be able to find that info in a history book somewhere.
How you were expected to "stay out" of the war under those circumstances is beyond me.
Oops, wrong thread. 
Yes, Germany declared war on us. But how in the name of Christ do you think they would have been able to do ANYTHING to hurt us. At the time they were fighting Russia to the east, Great Brittian in North Africa, and they were busy gathering art and wine from France. They had absolutely no means of projecting siginificant power to our side of the Atlantic.Originally posted by valve bouncer
Hello, Earth to DT, Germany declared war on you, the Japanese attacked you. You should be able to find that info in a history book somewhere.
As for Japan, we had been involved in that war long before Pearl Harbour. They attacked us as a means to prevent us from protecting oil interests that they were after in SE Asia. Their thinking was that if they crippled our Navy we could not rebuild in time to prevent them from running roughshod through SE Asia and Oceana. They were wrong.
Agree with you on Japan, their aim was never to "defeat" the US, more to keep the US off their patch by giving them a bloody nose. Serious mis-reading of the situation on their part.
I'm curious to know however how Germany's inability to project power towards America changes anything. If a country declares war on you do you wait until they are lobbing bombs down your chimney before you do something about it? Did the Germans threaten Canada, Australia or Southern Africa? They were all involved in fighting the Germans long before the US. I guess they saw Nazi Germany as a threat to everyone, everywhere and acted accordingly.
As much as I dislike dealing in "what ifs" do you seriously think even if Germany had not declared war on you, you would have been able to stay out of the war? You had to fight, there was no other choice, Roosevelt knew it and even the head in the sand isolationists knew it eventually.
Hitler himself had second thoughts about goading the US into war.
"Japans attack on Oahu (7 December 1941) took place when Germany was the mightiest nation on earth. It gave Hitler a tremendous, if temporary, lift. "The turning point!" he exclaimed when he heard that the Japanese had hit Pearl Harbor.
To Walter Hewel, an official from the foreign ministry assigned to Hitlers staff, he made a startling statement. "Now it is impossible for us to lose the war!" he said, wildly exaggerating the strength of Imperial Japan, which, along with Mussolinis Italy, was his partner in the Axis alliance. "We now have an ally," claimed Hitler, "who has never been vanquished in 3,000 years!"
The German dictator personally congratulated the Japanese ambassador to Berlin for his countrys success in catching US forces off guard: "You gave the right declaration of war! This method is the only proper one!"
The source of Hitlers confidence at the time of Pearl Harbor was simple: he imagined that the Japanese would tie down American resources indefinitely.
FDR would do everything in his power to stop the advance of fascism, but the president faced some very basic problems. Immediately after the beginning of hostilities with Japan, he doubted that the American people would tolerate a simultaneous war with Germany. It was the Japanese who had killed American sailors and soldiers on US territory in Hawaii. It was the Japanese that American citizens most feared and wanted to punish. They had no equal grudge against the German dictator.
Ultimately, it was Hitler and Mussolinis declaration of war against the US on 11 December 1941, that overcame American opposition to a crusade against all the fascist powers.
Interestingly, Nazi Germany had signed no treaty that bound Hitler to support Japanese aggression. He was committed to taking on the US only in the event that America initiated hostilities.
What most drew Hitler into declaring war on the US was the very grandiosity of the thing. Not far beneath the surface, he was wildly excited that he was now the central figure in what had become the widest war in human history.
Attempting to justify his decision for war during a speech to the Reichstag, Hitler concentrated on goading FDR, whom he called "the main culprit of this war." As he proceeded in his charges against America, he echoed US isolationists who said that Roosevelt counted on foreign adventures to divert attention from the New Deals failure to mend the American economy.
From behind Hitlers bravado, however, seeped out some very real concerns over the way the war was unfolding. He kept repeating that the people of the US lacked fighting spirit, but he also voiced respect for Americas industrial might. Before the American blood shed at Pearl Harbor excited his lust for war with the US, Hitler had hoped that the Japanese would either attack the Soviet Far East or limit themselves to taking such Asian outposts of European colonialism as British Singapore, French Indochina, and the Dutch East Indies.
Eventually Hitler would reveal the full extent of his reservations about fighting the United States. "This war against America is a tragedy," he told Martin Bormann, the Nazi party secretary. "Germany and the United States should have been able to support each other without undue strain on either of them."
Joseph Stalin, as Hitler realized, would be the foremost beneficiary of the Axis war with the US, for the Soviet dictator could now be sure that Japanese forces would be spreading out further into east Asia and the Pacific, not moving north and west to invade Siberia. Units of the Red Army that had long been tied down in the Soviet Far East could now be redeployed to Europe to fight the Germans in Russia and the Ukraine."
-Larry Hedrick
Noted WWII historian and author of "The Nazi Monstrosity"
"Japans attack on Oahu (7 December 1941) took place when Germany was the mightiest nation on earth. It gave Hitler a tremendous, if temporary, lift. "The turning point!" he exclaimed when he heard that the Japanese had hit Pearl Harbor.
To Walter Hewel, an official from the foreign ministry assigned to Hitlers staff, he made a startling statement. "Now it is impossible for us to lose the war!" he said, wildly exaggerating the strength of Imperial Japan, which, along with Mussolinis Italy, was his partner in the Axis alliance. "We now have an ally," claimed Hitler, "who has never been vanquished in 3,000 years!"
The German dictator personally congratulated the Japanese ambassador to Berlin for his countrys success in catching US forces off guard: "You gave the right declaration of war! This method is the only proper one!"
The source of Hitlers confidence at the time of Pearl Harbor was simple: he imagined that the Japanese would tie down American resources indefinitely.
FDR would do everything in his power to stop the advance of fascism, but the president faced some very basic problems. Immediately after the beginning of hostilities with Japan, he doubted that the American people would tolerate a simultaneous war with Germany. It was the Japanese who had killed American sailors and soldiers on US territory in Hawaii. It was the Japanese that American citizens most feared and wanted to punish. They had no equal grudge against the German dictator.
Ultimately, it was Hitler and Mussolinis declaration of war against the US on 11 December 1941, that overcame American opposition to a crusade against all the fascist powers.
Interestingly, Nazi Germany had signed no treaty that bound Hitler to support Japanese aggression. He was committed to taking on the US only in the event that America initiated hostilities.
What most drew Hitler into declaring war on the US was the very grandiosity of the thing. Not far beneath the surface, he was wildly excited that he was now the central figure in what had become the widest war in human history.
Attempting to justify his decision for war during a speech to the Reichstag, Hitler concentrated on goading FDR, whom he called "the main culprit of this war." As he proceeded in his charges against America, he echoed US isolationists who said that Roosevelt counted on foreign adventures to divert attention from the New Deals failure to mend the American economy.
From behind Hitlers bravado, however, seeped out some very real concerns over the way the war was unfolding. He kept repeating that the people of the US lacked fighting spirit, but he also voiced respect for Americas industrial might. Before the American blood shed at Pearl Harbor excited his lust for war with the US, Hitler had hoped that the Japanese would either attack the Soviet Far East or limit themselves to taking such Asian outposts of European colonialism as British Singapore, French Indochina, and the Dutch East Indies.
Eventually Hitler would reveal the full extent of his reservations about fighting the United States. "This war against America is a tragedy," he told Martin Bormann, the Nazi party secretary. "Germany and the United States should have been able to support each other without undue strain on either of them."
Joseph Stalin, as Hitler realized, would be the foremost beneficiary of the Axis war with the US, for the Soviet dictator could now be sure that Japanese forces would be spreading out further into east Asia and the Pacific, not moving north and west to invade Siberia. Units of the Red Army that had long been tied down in the Soviet Far East could now be redeployed to Europe to fight the Germans in Russia and the Ukraine."
-Larry Hedrick
Noted WWII historian and author of "The Nazi Monstrosity"
Interesting read....I'm sure old Hitler had a lot of second thoughts just before he dropped that cyanide pill in the bunker. I bet he wished he had stayed a painter
Interesting also his pride at starting the biggest war in history. There's that bloody hubris again, always there to bite you on the arse
I don't believe that our endeavors are limited to one goal. There are too many people involved for that to be true. However, I do believe that individuals can be extremely single-minded. So while certainly some were celebrating the liberation of the death camps, it seems silly to me to pretend they were ever strategic, unlike the labor camps. They were a by-product. The last step. We could have bombed the tracks to several camps long before our foot soldiers opened the gates... for each camp it would have diverted a few bombing raids from more "strategic targets." I'm not damning the decisions we made, I'm damning the belief that we're infallible.
If you read my other posts regarding Iraq, you'll see you're mis-recycling my words. I've never said we could talk Saddam out of his aggression - everyone acknowledges he's a madman. And I've never said he isn't a threat - I specifically pointed out his neighbors to someone that made that case. I also agree that diplomacy has failed for 12 years. But I believe the failure isn't that it couldn't curb his weapons program, but that it punised Iraqi civilians. I suppose I'm wrong, in that it was a failure in both respects... I can just be single-minded myself, when I feel like one side is being ignored. That's the contrarian in me that drives BurlySurly nuts. I've also said at least twice, that I'm for invasion. I just want us to be aware of all the reasons we're doing it, and I want to make sure we have fully examined the alternatives. Diplomacy does not equal diplomacy does not equal diplomacy.
As for minimizing accomplishments... well, I don't believe I did that. Like I said, we had our successes and we had our failures. The failures don't take away FROM the successes, but likewise the successes don't erase the failures. The more we acknowledge both the better of we'll be in similar future situations.
Thought I'd add that you know as well as I do that Saddam does not have and will never approach the level of strength (military and domestic-political) Hitler possessed in 1937.
He invaded Kuwait, like Japan to China... why didn't we treat Iraq's defeat like Japan's? With full occupation? (That's not rhetorical, by the way... I don't know the answer)
I thought this was the World War II thread. But I'll answer your point about Hitler in 1937. He wasn't that strong. He could have been dealt with then. Even on his own time table he jumped the gun early on Poland in 1939 because he was worried about the
Russians beating him to the punch. It caused him to sit tight for 7 months (phony war) until he was ready for the rest of Europe. A comparison Iraq to either of the Axis powers today is not accurate. (And I never made it) In 1990 it was. Truth be told Saddam had more that Hitler had in 1937, 38 and 39. Equals in 1940.
But to answer your question because no one wanted it to happen. The French, Chinese and Russians were dead set against any further occupation of Iraq. Also publically the nations of the Middle East were saying the samething. I think that in hindsight we missed what the Arabs were saying.
Its not like it wouldn't have been easy. The US military had virtually taken the bottom half of Iraq in less than 5 days only because they were going slow to allow the supply trains to keep up with them. The Iraqis really quit fighting after the 2nd day. The whole thing could have been finished in 14 days. No one could have stopped it except the politicians who did.
Additionally, the world cringed at what they saw when the the US military was unleashed. Calling the road to Basra, the road of death was not an overstatement. It was not a pretty sight and the pictures don't do it justice.
I posted info about this before so I'll just give the readers digest version this time.
In 1998 we were not running the show (contrary to what many ignorant pinheads think, the fault for the result of the '98 Gulf War is not on Bush Sr.). We agreed to lead the coalition under the UN's strict requirements. One of those requirements was that we not topple the Hussein regime. The UN was afraid of creating a vacuum effect and didn't know who (Iran, Suadi, Jordan, Turk, secular, or cleric) would fill the void. They figured a disarmed Hussein would be easier to control via sanctions (woops, wrong on that one) than the "X" factor that would be a new regime.
Therefore, under the UN mandate the US has spent the last 12 years supporting said sanctions and doing it's best to control import and export of the banned commodoties. Meanwhile the UN has tried in vain to get Hussein to comply with the UN mandate (which he signed in agreement) that he divulge and destroy all chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons and their means of construction. He has not.
So here we are today. The ineffectual UN has brought us to this point. I can't for the life of me understand why ANYONE would want to continue letting the UN run this debacle that has been going on in excess of 12 years and has yet to be resolved.
"More inspections"?
Do you think that after 12 years the UN is finally going to just get Hussein to comply? Why would he? The UN has proven that there is no real consequence for a failure to comply.
Individuals certainly can be extremely single-minded. I can even bet there were some among the Allies that could give to shakes about any of those camps. Shoot there are still people today that deny their existance. But as you point out there are too many people involved for that to be globaly true. So why not say some individuals....
No they were not strategic goals, nor would they be today. I suspect that if you ever talked to those directing the war they would say the samething. A strategic goal or target is one that will diminish the ability of your enemy to supply, fight or command his forces. But it doesn't mean their liberation wasn't important and a priority and that forces weren't tasked with those exact goals. US forces in Czechoslovakia certainly bare that out as there was nothing of strategic importance to be gained except the liberation of concentration camps. As for bombing railroad tracks from 25000 ft, it would be ineffective at best.
I guess you are right that it was the last step but a by-product? How would you make it the first step? Exactly how were you going to liberate these camps in the middle of Germany anytime prior to 1945. The first camp to be liberated was when the Red Army came across Majdanek in Poland in July of 1944. In the west the first camp was found Nov. of 1944 when Natzwiller was found. The way it happened was the only way it was going to happen. Even if the only goal was to liberate those camps.
You are the one using words like by-product, accident, last step, and let Jews be murdered. It might not be what you meant but it certainly reads like that.
and do you know how Many Japanese Civilians Died During the fire bombing of Toyko ? Or Not using the Bomb , Would have ment an Ambphibous (sp?) landing on Japan and do you know how many lives that would have cost both Japanese and American ?
And if the war had continued in a conventioanl fasion it was expected to take a Minimum of 2 years! (lots of lives would have been lost)
Now on to Germany ! We knew the Germans Were working on there Nuclear Program ( although we thought they were farther along than they were) and by the end of the war they had a vehicle to deliver it! The V2. as a matter of fact the US's First Balistic Missle was an exact Copy of the V2 in the late 40's Germany Was formadable ! We knew we could beat the Japanese , (givien Time ) The germans we were not sure of. Thje First Atomic bomb was developed with the intent of using it on Berlin, Not Japan.
I know I'm Rambling, but these are just things going through My head As I read this thread
It was until you felt like "recycling" my words from other topics into this one. Though why you feel they would apply is beyond me.
We're not talking power relative to immediate neighbors, we're talking power relative to major world powers (Germany to USSR/USA, Iraq to USA/...UN
). Plus Hitler had on emotional grip on his people that Saddam will never have. They are very different situations.Funny how none of that made into our news. I remember feeling at the time like it was a war without casualties.
edit: not sure if this last statement is fair. I just remembered I was living in England at the time, and moved to Israel immediately following the war, so my experience with reporting in the US during the war is limited.