[FCLinder]

Guys, I am trying to get some ammo to give to our local Ski Resorts around NC and SC to see what kind of riding park you would want at a resort and how many times a month during the summer you would try to ride there.

Thoughts as of now:
• Mainly DH runs
• Some freeride stunts but not on all trails
• Make all runs safe for all riders ability’s, but also offer technicality for advanced riders.
• Run the lifts on the weekends
• Have XC trails for those that want to ride XC
• Have a few races a year for DH and XC.

Give me your thoughts and do the poll on how many times during the summer months you would ride there.

Thanks

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Guys, I am trying to get some ammo to give to our local Ski Resorts around NC and SC to see what kind of riding park you would want at a resort and how many times a month during the summer you would try to ride there.

I voted, but the thought of developing a place like Brown Mountain ORV park would be viable as well?

 

[DVNT]

http://www.imba.com.....ski_resorts_overview.html

Mountain biking at ski areas continues to develop and expand. Nearly 175 North American ski resorts currently promote mountain biking on their mountains. Roughly half of these resorts operate a lift (or lifts) to allow mountain bikers to start their rides high on the slopes.

there's some studies on there as well about MTB tourism and demographics that may help.

 

[JohnBoy]

Depending on how far it was, how slow or fast the lifts were, and the variety of trails, and other options for riding. I would go as much as I could if it offered kick ass trails with lifts that were atleast as fast as SnowShoe.

 

[FCLinder]

http://www.imba.com.....ski_resorts_overview.html


there's some studies on there as well about MTB tourism and demographics that may help.

God info man!!!! Thanks.

 

[FCLinder]

Depending on how far it was, how slow or fast the lifts were, and the variety of trails, and other options for riding. I would go as much as I could if it offered kick ass trails with lifts that were atleast as fast as SnowShoe.

The focus as of right now would be Wolf Laurel as they really want to do this. They have a quad life that is super fast. This info may also go to other resorts.

 

[profro]

I think it has been proven that if you build and maintain a variety of trails, people will travel.

Sugar stagnated with one trail. Couple that with slow lifts and that is why I think they don't see lots of bikes on the weekends. If they or Wolf had a good variety (read: more than one) of trails I would travel at least once a month leading up to the race season.

 

[DVNT]

and something to go with that comment.
per NSAA (National Ski Area Association)

Snowshoe Mountain, W.Va., increased summer bike program business by an estimated 180-200 percent in 2004. It was done in a pretty seamless way: by cutting and building new trails and park features on an under-utilized section of the mountain aimed at the growing freeride mountain bike market, and then adding related events, rentals and retail to further boost earnings.

"Mountain biking is totally different than it was 6 or 7 years ago," agreed Matt Sutton, a member of the Keystone, Colo., bike crew. "Trails are getting more progressive and bikes are changing. Freeride biking is going to grow because it's more appealing for a 12-year-old kid to hit jumps and ride downhill trails than to just ride cross-country." Keystone built several freeride trails filled with jumps, berms and bridges over the past two summers and plans to keep adding.

 

[DVNT]

and follow it all up with...
all of this is somewhere on www.nsaa.org published by a ski website..not bikes.

Mountain bikers may have the reputation of guys that sleep in their car in the parking lot, but the often $5,000-$6,000 price tag on dual suspension bikes is shattering that '90s stereotype. Whistler, Keystone and Snowshoe are all vying for - and capturing - a destination mountain bike traveler similar to their target winter markets. McSkimming says that at Whistler, 30 percent of riders in 2004 came via airplane, around 60 percent of rider days stayed at least one night, and mountain bikers now make up 20 percent of overall overnight stays, up from 5 percent in 2003.

"Sure there's a majority of 18- to 29-year-old males, but that's changing. This demographic is much more affluent than people realize," he said. "There are a high percentage of household incomes well over $100,000. It's a similar demographic to skiing and snowboarding." So where is freeriding headed? Many predict what's going on with the sport is just the tip of the iceberg. "This sport is so new we're not quite sure what people are going to do," said McSkimming. "Riders are still figuring it out as they go. It's not as predictable as pulling a 720 off a jump in snowboarding - people know what they are capable of and what to expect now in that sport. Freeride biking is keeping people's attention because it hasn't hit its limit yet."

 

[OffCamber]

Coming from South Fla, I'd probally make the trip once a month but would be there for more than one day.

 

[jonnynails]

It would be great if Wolf could learn from Sugar's mistakes. Sitting on the lift for 30+ minutes is what kept a lot of people from Sugar. In addition there were not many choices of how you were going to get down the mountain.

If they run the quad, as long as it is detachable they will still have time to load/unload the bikes and have a high speed ride to the top. This along with multiple trails, some DH race, some with stunts, and maybe a flowy jump trail is what will keep people coming back. You need the variety to make the people travel. I think they would be surprised how many people they would get on weekends if they do this right as there is nothing lift serviced in the area short of Snowshoe that is worth a darn.

I would be there at least a couple of times a month during the summer.

 

[JeffD]

Just voted.

Jonny - if you're referring to Wolf's quad, it's not detachable but its only an eight minute ride up. Unlike Sugar, they run it fast as hell.

 

[lukedogg]

FCLinder,

Thanks for taking some initiative.

How about some 4X/DS or is that sort of thing tied into the DH? That might help gain some momentum across the area for that discipline. The rest of the world has embraced 4X and it's seems a little weak on the east coast.

I voted for once a month due to the distance from Raleigh.

How about posting this on Triangle MTB.

 

[Jeremy R]

The only place around here that I can see doing this successfully right now would be Wolf. They are in the right location to draw people from Atlanta/Charlotte/Tenn. etc.... and they also have a big rider base around Asheville.
With proper trailbuilding, that place could be a blast.
You could easily have a couple of dh race runs, a couple of stunt type runs and a jump line. If its true that Taylor has been hired full time for the trailbuilding then that is good news.
The lift there is fast and the runs are short enough where you just want to get in 50 in a day. If that place was open every weekend, I would be there constantly since its close to my house.
Throw in the Windrock trips and other races, and I could be kept smiling all year. Hopefully, those guys at Wolf can pull it off.

That said, I don't have any false hope that DHers in the Southeast are gonna work together to accomplish anything though. Just take a look at that other disease of a thread to realize that.
If two thirty-something year old fathers arguing on the internet somehow made DH trails appear, then our area would be a mecca.lthumbsdown:
But otherwise, we have to count on the select few doing something good like Joey has done at Windrock.

 

[rapp]

As long as there's gas in the tank, I'd make the drive. A 4x/DS course would be cool, I'd personally be more interested in a couple fast DH runs and a couple technical/freeride runs. And easy outs on stuff to make it race friendly for beginners, don't want to turn them off to it, or else nobody new would come and try it out.

 

[Squasher]

I voted twice a month. I'm only 2 hours away. I've only been there one time, 3 years ago, but I remember it having plenty of potential. As long as all the loam goes bye bye.

 

[drkenan]

I'd buy a season pass hands down. I worked at Hawksnest for 5 years and I can't see it happening there but I've been proven wrong before. I think Wolf is welcoming and excited to have us so maybe we should mind our P's and Q's and get up there.

[Cecil if you want to remove this section go ahead] BUT as I've mentioned before the city of Asheville has ALREADY has land for a "freeride park" set aside. I will go any day of the week to the parks and rec dept to see what can be done to revive the place but I don't want to go solo. If ANYONE (Butch, Eric, whoever else local) wants to go just let me know and we can make it happen.

 

[dhbuilder]

Depending on how far it was, how slow or fast the lifts were, and the variety of trails, and other options for riding. I would go as much as I could if it offered kick ass trails with lifts that were atleast as fast as SnowShoe.

right on.

that's where some of ya'll's local resorts have dropped the ball.

sugar is a prime example.
if they hired a building crew to expand out to more than just the one run they have.
think about how many folks would be there on a regular basis.
and how many passes they'd sell.

you guys have the terrain sitting right there at your doorstep, just waiting to be fully developed.
with just one of those resorts putting forth the effort.
they'd get such a jump on the other resorts in getting a loyal core rider base.

and when i look back on what i've been able to do up here in seven years with funding from my pocket and a very small build crew.
just think what a resort could do in a couple of years with full funding and a steady workforce.


good luck cecil.

 

[dhbuilder]

just saw your post jeremy.
thanks for the props.

one of the best things about my situation here is.
they fully appreciate my long term commitment to trailwork.
couple that with the way 99% of the downhillers have conducted themselves, and the fact that on our large weekends we always manage to donate to the local food pantry.

and it adds up to the fact that these trails will be here for many years to come.

downhill riding/racing is a well established form of cycling.
it's about time for some of the resorts in ya'll's area to step up and reap the benefits from it.

food service.
repair shops and parts.
hotels.
grocery stores.
gas stations.
the list goes on and on as far as the boost to the economy that windrock o.h.v. area has created.

the same can and will happen around any area that expands its user groups.

 

[jonnynails]

Just voted.

Jonny - if you're referring to Wolf's quad, it's not detachable but its only an eight minute ride up. Unlike Sugar, they run it fast as hell.

8 minutes to the top??? Wow, you aren't even to the top of the beginner section at Sugar in 8 minutes. Now if they can get a variety of different trails laid out right (DH, stunt, jump line, beginner options, and maybe a dual or 4x) they have a recipe for sucess and all of us in the Southeast would have a great place to ride.

Cecil, count me in to help if you need any.

 

[ATOMICFIREBALL]

2x a month !
I plan on going to Snowshoe alot!

 

[BKQuill]

Ya got my vote!

 

[ridiculous]

Yup 2x a month for me, once a paycheck.

 

[ridefast]

If two thirty-something year old fathers arguing on the internet somehow made DH trails appear, then our area would be a mecca

i think this pretty much sums up RM for the past few days

 

[FCLinder]

i think this pretty much sums up RM for the past few days

Sorry about that, the main problem with us is neither of us will not back down. We both mean well. As for that, things are cooled down and we have a new focus. Its all good....

Good ideas and info. Keep it coming....

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

Sorry about that, the main problem with us is neither of us will not back down. We both mean well. As for that, things are cooled down and we have a new focus. Its all good....

Good ideas and info. Keep it coming....

Lets face it arguing on the internet is...
1) Usually pretty pointless
2) Usually pretty entertaining


Anyway onto the "Resort riding" I have only been to a few, my favorite being Mammoth. I would imagine a big key to success is having trails for everyone. Some of my favorite trails in Mammoth were rated begginer. You would see Mom, Dad & kids heading down the trail on rental bikes all day long with huge smiles on their faces. However, let it clear out a little and I could put hammer down (well at least for me) and have just as good of a time.

 

[vinnycactus]

i agree with robert on having trails for everyone. not only beginner to advanced, but also riders who lean more toward freeride and riders who lean towards striclty dh(obviously only talking about lift access here). an example is Highland Mountain Bike Park in NH. The area opened this past summer. The started with 2-3 trails that were more geared towards freeriding, and this didn't sit too well with the dh racer types. granted the area was new and they have already built a dh race type run.

i know i'm probably restating what has already been said or thought of.

 

[bizutch]

Let me remind someone that despite those two old guys with kids hatin' on one another, they've built some damn impressive DH runs together.

I can print this thread out at some point before I meet with the owners Tuesday. I'd prefer we NOT send them the link to this thread though...lest they go browsing other elements of our community...heheh.

I dropped Ryan Taylor an email to get on the same page with him before I go up there. I wanna make sure I don't step on anyone's toes.

 

[psychobiker]

build dh, build freeride, i will ride it.....im not gonna complain im gonna adapt...every trail every state has diff. conditions..ive been on dh runs that could be called freeride and vice versa... get er done have fun im in

 

[ztlh13]

Please everyone keep in mind while ridemonkey is good for quick responses less than half of the people that will come and ride browse this forum. Getting connected to the 'rest' of the riders is what makes race promotion a nightmare in the region, b/c every one is soo segmented!

BTW my plate and screws come out in May and 8 weeks from then you will see me everywhere there is riding and racing.

If there is any slalom construction call me I am only 45 minutes away.

 

[FCLinder]

Let me remind someone that despite those two old guys with kids hatin' on one another, they've built some damn impressive DH runs together.

I can print this thread out at some point before I meet with the owners Tuesday. I'd prefer we NOT send them the link to this thread though...lest they go browsing other elements of our community...heheh.

I dropped Ryan Taylor an email to get on the same page with him before I go up there. I wanna make sure I don't step on anyone's toes.

Butch that would be great thanks. Let who ever needs to know up there they have people wanting to help build and to influence how its built.

Thanks

 

[FCLinder]

Please everyone keep in mind while ridemonkey is good for quick responses less than half of the people that will come and ride browse this forum. Getting connected to the 'rest' of the riders is what makes race promotion a nightmare in the region, b/c every one is soo segmented!

BTW my plate and screws come out in May and 8 weeks from then you will see me everywhere there is riding and racing.

If there is any slalom construction call me I am only 45 minutes away.

I would like to see a full time DS or 4X course there for the summer that has a lift that riders can use on every run. Wolf can do this. Understand the DH trails need to be built first as it will be the main reason people go there. The DS and 4X will have to be done last.

 

[drkenan]

Please everyone keep in mind while ridemonkey is good for quick responses less than half of the people that will come and ride browse this forum. Getting connected to the 'rest' of the riders is what makes race promotion a nightmare in the region, b/c every one is soo segmented!

I think half is an overstatement. I'd say that 1/8 of people that will come and ride post on here - if that. To be sure the ski resorts have to know this in their market research.

 

[bizutch]

I think half is an overstatement. I'd say that 1/8 of people that will come and ride post on here - if that. To be sure the ski resorts have to know this in their market research.

Advertising to the cycling public can be done. But it's a vastly spread out database. Blanketing every bike shop in a 5 state area is time consuming to get flyers to, but not as tough as one would think.
NORBA's mailing lists are available to race promoters and IMBA's mailing lists are as well.

Bicyle Retailer, VeloNews, DirtMag, MBAction, Decline, etc are all great ways to spread the news. They all have mailing lists available for purchase and so do bike companies. Those warranty cards you fill out can sometimes be used to target buyers.

Shops with mailings, like Liberty here in Asheville, will be more than happy to advertise as well. There are tons of market specific ways to reach the client.

Heck, I've got a database program here at work that I can target some pretty crazy demographics...geographicly and just about any other way you can imagine.

 

[bizutch]

...

[Cecil if you want to remove this section go ahead] BUT as I've mentioned before the city of Asheville has ALREADY has land for a "freeride park" set aside. I will go any day of the week to the parks and rec dept to see what can be done to revive the place but I don't want to go solo. If ANYONE (Butch, Eric, whoever else local) wants to go just let me know and we can make it happen.

Join Pisgah Area SORBA and you'll learn why that freeride park is dead. Asheville doesn't own it, Buncombe County does. tomato, tomahto...anyway. A $5k grant was won through the state to develop the trails this last winter. They marked it, mapped it, cleaned the underbrush and went in to start digging. Between cleaning brush and the day they started to dig...the county cut a massive road righ through their work. Why...dirt well access for capping the landfill. The $5k grant is lost and the county can't and/or won't clarify "where" they may access dirt wells....basicly as it stands right now..if you build anything out there, the county can doze through at any time to get more dirt to throw on the landfill without notice.


BUT...that being said...you can take a shovel and a crew out there and pretty much have at it currently b/c no one is going to stop you and no one is going to go in and tear down anything. I'd stay completely away from stick built stunts. Hucks, drops, berms, jumps, rhythm, wall rides...all open game. Best place you can work is 200 yards down from the parking area. If you park inthe gravel lot, ride your bike down the pavement to the next gravel road (back entrance for the landfill for heavy equipment). Ride up it 50 yards and turn right on the little trail. There is a big, open area and a steep bank. I've spotted lots of things you can build right there with a shovel and mattock. I'm surprised no one has.

Disclaimer: Do NOT quote this post in your reply because I'm gonna delete it in a minute. There is no real "rules" out there right now. But I don't want people going around saying "Butch said I could build a 40 foot road gap"...

 

[bizutch]

http://www.whistlergravitylogic.com/

 

[demolition dave]

http://www.whistlergravitylogic.com/

From this link:
"The true genius behind A-Line, Dirt Merchant and Whistler's legendary "flow" is Dave Kelly"

Now I know who is responsible for probably the best 3 days of riding in my life so far!

That is a really cool link and would most likely be a great tool for any resort who is interested in mountain bikes to use!

Nice find..............

 

[bizutch]

I'm a bottomless pool of useless knowledge.

 

[dhbuilder]

I'm a bottomless pool of useless knowledge.

glad to see you're coming to terms with it.
that's the first step. admitting you have a problem.

 

[Dartman]

I'm at Snowshoe 2-3 times a month in summer. I really like the DH variety there now but am disappointed in that they are turning away from the XC trails. XC was like a gateway drug for me and is what got me up there in the first place. Now they're f'in up the XC trails with Jeeps and motocross or just letting them go to hell. Oh well I guess there's off the mountain XC riding.

Mike