[Toshi]

Dunno, like I said, old data. I'll see on Monday if I can post data from the new studies.

BTW:
There are saddles other than BG that Dr. Sommers tests verify as safe......but not many.

that would be great. having more science (and less pseudo-science and handwavy claims) backing up advertisements is a positive step, and specialized is at least halfway there... which is more than can be said by most companies. i'm being a punk about this because i don't think saying "medical studies support our product" is enough on its own. and if this new study shows the 2005 specialized saddles to be the best EVAR then i will certainly replace my fleet of WTB SST.Ti saddles with them when they wear out

 

[Skookum]

And so the jury on the Ass-O-meter is out. Will the technology rain true and keep that blood flowing or will your willie fall off after a 20 mile ride? Tune in next time kids to see if Biggins will move to the Pac N.W. to try to hook up with Megan Black.

This is Skookum signing off asking you to remember that Election day is coming up, vote for Gay Penguin/Toshi 2004

Thank you and god bless.....

 

[disasterarea]

errr, correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't the Ridemonkey community been enjoying the use of such a measuring device for a while? At least from all the posts I've read so far, I believe it's called "Biggins" or maybe Bigginometer? Oh, hang on, it's for ladies' use only. My bad.

Pulled this out from the RoadBikeReview dot com newsletter I got today about the Interbike coverage....


---Specialized hosted a scientific demonstration of how
sitting on a bike seat can reduce a guy's penile blood
flow. The company's Body Geometry saddles score well in
a landmark test method that's just been developed in
Germany. But key to making any saddle work better is to
sit on its wide rear section to keep weight supported
on sit bones rather than the sensitive material between
them. So, how do you know the width of your sit bones
so you can find a suitably wide saddle? Specialized is
providing its dealers with an apparatus that allows
this critical distance to be measured. It's called an
Assometer.

:evil:

 

[Damn True]

Ok, I got the okey dokey to post this stuff.

Blood Flow and Bicycle Saddle Design
History, Methodology, Testing,
and Competitive Analysis

by Roger Minkow, M.D. Copyright © 2004,
Specialized Bicycle Components
v.1.0, June 2004

Executive Summary

In 1997 the cycling world was rocked by media stories of men becoming impotent as a result of cycling. This was the first instance where the benefits of cycling seemed to be outweighed by the health hazards. The problem was magnified by quotations from Dr. Irwin Goldstein, a Boston-based urologist who estimated that 100,000 men in the USA alone were already impotent as a result of bicycle riding. Doctors were recommending that men not ride if they experienced any numbness or erectile dysfunction. The problem was in every newspaper and every major magazine and TV network.

The same year, Specialized Bicycle Components of Morgan Hill, California, teamed up with ergonomic products designer Dr. Roger Minkow to develop the first patented Body Geometry (BG) saddle design. While field trials established the efficacy of the Body Geometry design in prevention and relief of cycling-related discomfort and other symptoms in both men and women, the exact mechanism—the causal link─between bicycle saddles and reproductive health remained a topic of speculation.

The mystery was finally solved in 2003 by noted German urolologist Dr. Frank Sommer, a keynote speaker at the American Urology Meeting in San Francisco (May 2004). Dr. Sommer’s laboratory research conclusively linked bicycle saddle design to blood flow reduction in the penile artery of male cyclists for the first time.

In the summer of 2003, Dr Minkow flew to Dr. Sommer’s laboratory and began using Sommer’s protocol to measure blood flow of cyclists on BG saddles. Dr. Minkow then modified sections of his saddle designs to maximize blood flow. The result is a new generation of Body Geometry saddles (marketed as BG2 ) which are so efficient that in some cases there is no measurable restriction in blood flow, even when test subjects ride in the 30 ° (aero racing) position for sustained periods.


History and Medical Background

When reports alleging that bicycle saddles made men impotent hit the front pages of newspapers and became the lead item on network newscasts, Mike Sinyard called his friend Ed Pavelka, then an editor at Bicycling Magazine. Sinayard asked Pavelka if Ed knew anyone who could help create a new type of bicycle seat which would deal with this well-publicized problem and story.

Pavelka referred Sinyard to Dr. Roger Minkow, a California physician and ergonomic designer who had created some interesting prototype saddles to address the issue. In October 1997, Dr. Minkow teamed up with Specialized product designers to create the first Body Geometry Saddle. This design became one of the bestselling saddles of all time...and the first product in the cycling industry specifically designed and formally proven to solve a medical problem.

Prototyping and Field Testing. In the prototype phase, Minkow had sought the advice of Stanford urologist Dr. Robert Kessler, who performed a study on twenty-five cyclists with sexual health problems and determined that the Body Geometry design reduced numbness and erectile dysfunction.

Clinical trials were then performed in Norway under supervision of Trondheim urologist Dr. Anders Angelsen at the Great Tour of Strength, a grueling 330-mile group ride with 3,500 participants annually, and where riders had previously been determined to suffer impotence rate of 10%. Dr. Angelsen’s 1999 field study on BG saddles was accepted and presented at the annual Norwegian medical association meeting in Oslo. The study demonstrated showed a significant reduction in numbness and erectile dysfunction using the new BG design.

Evolution. The basic Body Geometry Saddle design evolved over six and a half years to include recreational saddles, mountain bike saddles, women’s saddles, and for 2005, advanced road saddles for professional cyclists as well as recreational cyclists.

The Enduring Problem. Despite the commercial success of the BG saddle design (and the rise of literally dozens of clinically unproven “just as good” imitations), and despite the successful field trials demonstrating statistically significant reduction in symptoms, there was still no etiology that adequately explained how conventional saddles caused the symptoms noted by so many cyclists...or how the Body Geometry design relieved them.

 

[Damn True]

Test Methodology

The noted German urologist Dr. Frank Sommer developed a procedure (or protocol) for measuring blood flow that was both elegant and straightforward. An oxygen pressure sensor is attached to a male cyclist’s penis. The cyclist then rides a stationary bike while his oxygen pressure is recorded at 1-minute intervals.

Since Dr. Sommer had conclusively demonstrated in other medical contexts that oxygen pressure is an accurate measure of blood flow , his protocol reliably provided an accurate picture of how much blood flow a particular saddle design permits.

Note: Dr. Sommer was recently invited to be the Keynote Speaker at the American Urological Academy conference in San Francisco, the first European ever to be so honored. While in the States for the AUA conference, he was interviewed by the Dr Dean Edell show and Fox News as well as by a number of newspapers and professional journals about bicycle saddle testing and design.

Blood Flow and Saddle Design. Starting in the summer 2003, Roger Minkow flew to Europe and began using Dr. Sommer’s protocol to conduct blood flow measurements on BG saddles in the University of Cologne Medical Center. He then removed or resculpted sections of the various saddle designs until the blood flow was increased and, ultimately, optimized.


Blood Flow Testing

In January 2004, Drs. Sommer and Minkow presented their blood flow laboratory protocol to journalists from the USA and Europe. This presentation compared general types of saddles including soft, thickly padded traditional saddles, conventional race-type saddles, and so-called “anatomic” saddles designs. In comparing these general types of saddles, the journalists noted some surprising overall results that remained consistent regardless of the brands of saddles tested:

· Soft, padded saddles restrict blood flow more than any other type. In general, the more padding, the more restriction.
· Thinly padded racing saddles, while clearly less comfortable for most cyclists, performed better than soft “comfort” saddles in terms of blood flow.
· Overall, anatomic saddle designs (with grooves, cut-outs, or relieved areas), offered the best performance (restricted blood flow the least).

Editors from various magazines then requested comparison tests between different saddles available in the marketplace (samples were provided by the editors). Dr. Sommer outlined the complexity of doing comparison tests in the following way:

1. Each rider has a different baseline blood flow. Some riders have inherently higher blood flow (probably because of anatomical differences).
2. Temperature affects rider’s blood flow so that on different days the same rider may have different results.
3. Different riders have more sensitivity to arterial constriction, so that in some cases a rider will sit on a saddle and the arteries immediately constrict, then expand to give a baseline blood flow that is stable after several minutes.
· Other riders will have less immediate drop and stabilize faster.
· In almost all cases, blood flow stabilizes between the 5 and 7 minute mark.
4. Anatomical differences exist so that a particular saddle may provide one rider with more blood flow than a different-sized rider.

Dr. Sommer emphasized that while more blood flow is obviously better, any value of more that 50% is reasonable to consider safe for most cyclists. With these considerations in mind, two magazines performed comparison tests.


Blood Flow Comparative Results

Tour Magazine. In April, 2004 Tour Magazine (Germany) performed tests on a number of saddle designs of their choosing. Note that this test and the those subsequently performed by Mountain Bike (Germany) were done in a “enthusiast” riding position on a road bike with that the rider’s hands on the brake hoods. (This 60° position is also equivalent to most enthusiast rider’s hands on the grips of XC-class mountain bikes.) The test results shown here were done with a volunteer Tour editor as the test subject. Although different riders will tend to show different results (see items 1–4 previous, Dr. Sommer confirms these values are typical and that the percentage values are representative of his results with the other test subjects.

Source: testing conducted with Tour magazine editor, April 2004. Comparison samples of racing and/or anatomic saddles selected and provided by Tour magazine. Results in order of performance.


Saddle Brand and Model Stabilized Blood Flow Value
Specialized BG Pro Road 89.3%
Terry Fly Max 75.8%
SQ Lab 611 72.6%
Selle Italia SLK Gel Flow 71.6%
AX Lightness 65.9%
Selle Italia SLR 65.4%
Selle Italia Flite 65.1%
Selle San Marco Arrowhead 54.3%
Selle San Marco Aspid FX 53.3%
SDG USA 52.7%
WRC1 Extreme 50.0%
Tune Speed Needle 41.4%
Fizik Alliante 40.3%
Fizik Vitesse 39.6%
SaddleCo 36.2%
Terry Butterfly RS Women 32.8%
Fizik Arioni 27.5%
Selle San Marco Rolls 6.5%

 

[Damn True]

Further Testing. In May 2004, Dr. Minkow conducted supplemental tests in the more aggressive 30° “racing” or “aero” (rider with hands on the dropped part of a road bar, equivalent to an extreme XC MTB racing) position. Previous studies had found this position restricted blood flow significantly more than the neutral (on the brake hoods) position.

Five racing and/or anatomic-type saddles were chosen and a test rider cycled for seven minutes in the aero or race position. The results were as follows:

Saddle Brand and Model Stabilized Blood Flow Value
BG Avitar (2005 road racing model) 54%
Selle San Marco Aspid 35%
Selle Italia Flite 25%
Selle Italia SLK 25%
Selle Italia SLR 9%

Conclusions

Based on data from these sample studies and others, Dr. Minkow presents the following conclusions about blood flow and saddle design:

1. There is a tremendous variation in the degree of blood flow restriction caused by different bicycle saddles.
2. Individual riders have individual baseline blood flows.
3. Riding in the aero or race position restricts blood substantially flow more than in the neutral “enthusiast” position.
4. Different riders perform differently with different saddles; the ideal saddle for rider A may be different than for B.
5. In every test, Body Geometry BG2 saddles are in the top group for blood flow. This is understandable since these are the only saddles designed in the laboratory for this specific purpose.
· For the vast majority of riders, BG2 is the best-scoring saddle of all.
· For some riders, the BG2 saddle showed 100% blood flow (no measurable restriction), even in the aero position. (This result is atypical, but it does point out degrees of individual variance.)
6. Other saddles may perform well for some riders, but there is a lack of consistency in performance even between designs that may appear similar.
· Grooves or cut-outs are not by themselves reliable indicators of saddle blood flow performance.
7. Although a particular saddle design may perform well in the more neutral (60°) enthusiast riding position, this is not a reliable indicator of how that saddle will perform in the aero or race (30°) position.
8. Perceived saddle comfort has virtually no correlation with better blood flow, even for the most experienced riders tested.

 

[Toshi]

thanks for posting these results. the new specialized saddles do look promising, based on the blood flow numbers. one thing i find curious is that the top performer in his initial study, the u-shaped anatomical saddle, was not included among the tested saddles this time around.

 

[scurban]

Pulled this out from the RoadBikeReview dot com newsletter I got today about the Interbike coverage....


---Specialized hosted a scientific demonstration of how
sitting on a bike seat can reduce a guy's penile blood
flow. The company's Body Geometry saddles score well in
a landmark test method that's just been developed in
Germany. But key to making any saddle work better is to
sit on its wide rear section to keep weight supported
on sit bones rather than the sensitive material between
them. So, how do you know the width of your sit bones
so you can find a suitably wide saddle? Specialized is
providing its dealers with an apparatus that allows
this critical distance to be measured. It's called an
Assometer.

:evil:

Once again specialized has stolen one of my ideas.

 

[Skookum]

in case anyone is interested i posted my initial thoughts on the Specialized Avatar Gel seat that i was fit for.
There may be a few tidbits of useful info if you wade thru the typical nonsense that seems to gravitate to my threads.
http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102425&highlight=AssOmeter

 

[Damn True]

thanks for posting these results. the new specialized saddles do look promising, based on the blood flow numbers. one thing i find curious is that the top performer in his initial study, the u-shaped anatomical saddle, was not included among the tested saddles this time around.

I may be mistaken, but I don't believe it is still on the market.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

OK, with an assist from DT, I just went to our ABS (Assometer Bicycle Shop), sat on the pad, made my dents, which the shop rep measured as 145 mm center to center, and decided that since I ride more upright a 155 seat would be appropriate.

70 U.S. clams later, I came home with a 155 mm BG Avatar Gel seat. Not quite sure how to determine if it's an '05 or not. It looks a little more like a road seat than a fall-down-on-rocks model, and I'm a hair suspicious of hollow steel rails A.K.A. tubing, but I'll try it.

Review to continue later.

J

 

[Skookum]

OK, with an assist from DT, I just went to our ABS (Assometer Bicycle Shop), sat on the pad, made my dents, which the shop rep measured as 145 mm center to center, and decided that since I ride more upright a 155 seat would be appropriate.

70 U.S. clams later, I came home with a 155 mm BG Avatar Gel seat. Not quite sure how to determine if it's an '05 or not. It looks a little more like a road seat than a fall-down-on-rocks model, and I'm a hair suspicious of hollow steel rails A.K.A. tubing, but I'll try it.

Review to continue later.

J

Mines holding up well and i'm satisfied with it. i'm thinking that eventually it's going to become the standard to be fit for all brands of saddles.....

 

[Tully]

Pretty profound stuff in terms of ensuring comfort in addition to protecting the rider from penile bloodflow restriction.

...which can actually have rather some undesirable long-term effects.

 

[Damn True]

...which can actually have rather some undesirable long-term effects.

Correct. Long term exposure to bloodflow restriction levels in excess of 50% can cause fibrosis in the vascular tissue of the penis = impotence.

 

[Tully]

A.K.A. Viagra dependency.