[jacksonpt]

I've been on vacation all week in Tucson visiting my father. He has a Giant OCR 3 that doesn't get much attention. I took her for a spin the other day around the neighorhood - not the kind of ride I'd brag about to anyone, but enough to get a good workout and get a feel for the bike.

I'm use to my Jamis Quest, which is a 54" steel frame. The Giant is a 58" carbon frame. I adjusted it enough to fit me ok... was a bit stretched out, but still ok.

The carbon was really nice. The bike felt slow, but I attribute that to not being clipped in (my dad rides flats). The carbon definitely softened the ugly pavement, but it didn't feel as solid under me. It was a smoother ride, but the bike felt more fragile. Not to the point where I worried about the bike, but my quest feels pretty much bombproof under me.

All in all, I liked the ride, and after about 10 minutes I didn't notice the difference in feel unless I was thinking about it. After about 45 minutes on the bike, I certainly wouldn't mind owning a carbon bike, but it didn't make me hate my steelie.

 

[GravityFreakTJ]

I have tried aluminum,carbon,aluinum/carbon stays,and steel. Think i will stick with my Titanium

 

[ito]

Hmm, I got to ride a Specialized Tarmac S-Works the other week. It was fun, different than my steel Schwinn Pelaton.

What I can say (sorry if I steal your post, but I have a similar experience).

ride quality: I like the feel of the steel bike more. The road wasn't dead, but it wasn't as lively, I felt removed from the surface. Still very smooth and I can see the benefit when you are riding for long hours and days at a time.

stiffness: Holy Crap!!!! This bike goes and it goes fast. Every pedal stroke just jets me forward. Not at all like the steel bike.

climbing: This bike is about 15lbs, 4lbs lighter than my steel bike. I liked climbing on it, but geometry was off for me. I'm used to my bike and I have a style I like. Never found rythm. Still, climbs fast and hard, I'd like some more.

Descending: bike was confident, but didn't dive into corners as well as my steel bike. Felt a hair nervous, though that may have been me not wanting to crash a bike worth twice my car. Stiffness was a bit much on rougher roads, didn't really like the feel.

Over all the ride was pleasant, but I can't say I'd change my steel beast for a carbon bike unless I was racing. I dig the steel feel and while carbon is nice the bike was too different for me. I've had several people say I need carbon and I'd get faster and what not. I can see why they say that, but it isn't worth it to me.

The Ito

 

[sanjuro]

Hmm, I got to ride a Specialized Tarmac S-Works the other week. It was fun, different than my steel Schwinn Pelaton.

What I can say (sorry if I steal your post, but I have a similar experience).

ride quality: I like the feel of the steel bike more. The road wasn't dead, but it wasn't as lively, I felt removed from the surface. Still very smooth and I can see the benefit when you are riding for long hours and days at a time.

stiffness: Holy Crap!!!! This bike goes and it goes fast. Every pedal stroke just jets me forward. Not at all like the steel bike.

climbing: This bike is about 15lbs, 4lbs lighter than my steel bike. I liked climbing on it, but geometry was off for me. I'm used to my bike and I have a style I like. Never found rythm. Still, climbs fast and hard, I'd like some more.

Descending: bike was confident, but didn't dive into corners as well as my steel bike. Felt a hair nervous, though that may have been me not wanting to crash a bike worth twice my car. Stiffness was a bit much on rougher roads, didn't really like the feel.

Over all the ride was pleasant, but I can't say I'd change my steel beast for a carbon bike unless I was racing. I dig the steel feel and while carbon is nice the bike was too different for me. I've had several people say I need carbon and I'd get faster and what not. I can see why they say that, but it isn't worth it to me.

The Ito

I wonder if your Peleton is a little bit more relaxed than the Tarmac.

The closest thing to riding a carbon bike was a Merlin Cielo:

It creaked every time I got out of the saddle, but the ride was not much different than my Seven Ti. I would love to get a 6/13, which is half alu/half carbon, but I want to get to 180 before I do it.

I think carbon is cool for a lightweight guy, but I think it is for the every-day roadies.

 

[ito]

I wonder if your Peleton is a little bit more relaxed than the Tarmac.

It might be. Also, the Specialized wasn't set up that well for me. Frame fit was fine, but the stem was a good deal longer than I would like. Being stretched out probably made for me not liking it as much.

I'd love to ride a Ti road bike, but until someone starts paying me to ride a bike or I get a real job that probably won't happen.

I gotta say, carbon will work for just about anyone, any weight. The Trek carbon frames have a lifetime warranty and no weight limit. For the casual rider with money and a thirst for comfort I think a carbon bike makes sense. For a racer it makes sense due to weight and stiffness. To poor college students and steel snobs such as myself...it only makes sense if we can get it for free

The Ito

 

[EricMcFlow]

I ride my Madone arround Chicago all the time, and I am pushing 200lbs. I think it rides better than any carbon bike on the market, its a little heavier then the S-works Tarmac, but its road complaincy in 100x better. I took a Tarmac out on a ride and the pavment was not great, but the bike felt like it was going to shake out of my hands, the bike just felt like it was resonating.

 

[jacksonpt]

ito - while I didn't really think about it at the time, you're right when you say the carbon ride feels dead and fragile.

 

[Reactor]

Hmmm... I think a lot of the Character of a carbon bike has to do with the way the fiber was layed. Specialized is way ahead of most other companies in that respect.

 

[EricMcFlow]

Hmmm... I think a lot of the Character of a carbon bike has to do with the way the fiber was layed. Specialized is way ahead of most other companies in that respect.

As much as most people like to hate on Trek, they have Specalized way beat.

 

[The Toninator]

I've been on vacation all week in Tucson visiting my father. He has a Giant OCR 3 that doesn't get much attention. I took her for a spin the other day around the neighorhood - not the kind of ride I'd brag about to anyone, but enough to get a good workout and get a feel for the bike.

I'm use to my Jamis Quest, which is a 54" steel frame. The Giant is a 58" carbon frame. I adjusted it enough to fit me ok... was a bit stretched out, but still ok.

The carbon was really nice. The bike felt slow, but I attribute that to not being clipped in (my dad rides flats). The carbon definitely softened the ugly pavement, but it didn't feel as solid under me. It was a smoother ride, but the bike felt more fragile. Not to the point where I worried about the bike, but my quest feels pretty much bombproof under me.

All in all, I liked the ride, and after about 10 minutes I didn't notice the difference in feel unless I was thinking about it. After about 45 minutes on the bike, I certainly wouldn't mind owning a carbon bike, but it didn't make me hate my steelie.

54"

 

[The Toninator]

I wonder if your Peleton is a little bit more relaxed than the Tarmac.

The closest thing to riding a carbon bike was a Merlin Cielo:

It creaked every time I got out of the saddle, but the ride was not much different than my Seven Ti. I would love to get a 6/13, which is half alu/half carbon, but I want to get to 180 before I do it.

I think carbon is cool for a lightweight guy, but I think it is for the every-day roadies.

god said carbon and TI aught not to lie together.

 

[GravityFreakTJ]

god said carbon and TI aught not to lie together.

aw the little known 11th comandment

 

[Reactor]

As much as most people like to hate on Trek, they have Specalized way beat.

Must be why all the people I know who HAD madones traded them in for Roubiax

 

[EricMcFlow]

Must be why all the people I know who HAD madones traded them in for Roubiax

Totally different bikes, apples and oranges, sounds like people you know got old.

IMHO the Madone rides a lot better then the Tarmac and the Pilot rides a lot better then the Roubiax, but the Roubiax looks a lot better. Most people think the Pilots look like poo thanks to the graphics on them, and the only reason I think they are more popular.

 

[sanjuro]

Must be why all the people I know who HAD madones traded them in for Roubiax

Lets just say Trek Carbon Bikes 1st in market, everyone else, a distance second.

 

[jacksonpt]

god said carbon and TI aught not to lie together.

What about steel and carbon? Any thoughts?

 

[robdamanii]

Interesting post Jackson. I'm thinking about looking for an Orbea this summer for long rides up here. I haven't ridden them yet, but in the name of research, if you'd care to elaborate how it felt "more delicate" I'd be interested to hear about it.

 

[The Toninator]

What about steel and carbon? Any thoughts?

even worse.
I do however advocate the mating of Carbon and Aluminum. The bastard element and the bastard metal are perfect for each other.
Also neither Carbon nor Ti should be used in a full suspension application. (except for handle bars, seat posts etc)

 

[The Toninator]

i've personally started looking for al/carbon rode frame. My aluminum specialized comp (but with the columbus E5 aero tubing) is nice i think i just want something new.

 

[rooftest]

I've got a carbon and steel LeMond, and love it! It rides really nice, saves some weight on a full steel, and has better vibration dampening.

 

[The Toninator]

BTW this is all just my 'thought's' i have never been on any of the carbon/ti/steel half breeds. i probably never will.

 

[rooftest]

I do however advocate the mating of Carbon and Aluminum. The bastard element and the bastard metal are perfect for each other.
Also neither Carbon nor Ti should be used in a full suspension application. (except for handle bars, seat posts etc)

Do you ride a wooden frame? seems like you hate everything else.

And good for you for refusing to try any "hybrid construction" bikes. You wouldn't want to try something before giving your opinion on it.

 

[The Toninator]

Do you ride a wooden frame? seems like you hate everything else.

And good for you for refusing to try any "hybrid construction" bikes. You wouldn't want to try something before giving your opinion on it.

That’s a completely inaccurate interpretation of me. Well for example I like:
Ti
Steel
Uhhh ok that’s it.

I like Ti and steel. I hate, hate, hate carbon. It’s the bastard element. I also hate aluminum.

NOW for the details. TI/Carbon “hybrid construction” is all aesthetics. People are selling and people are buying just like y’all are buying into ‘reality TV’ it’s immoralistic and is killing this country. DOG said TI and Carbon aught not to lye together. Go to Sunday school I guarantee it’s the first words out of the teacher mouth.

As stated I ride a Specialized aluminum frame. It’s the Columbus ESX E5 though. Very nice ride. I have a carbon post on it. 8,000 miles and I like it.
I would like to try a nice Carbon/Aluminum cross bread bastard sometime.

I’ve never owned a Ti road bike and I’ve never owned a Steel road bike but I have a very nice 853 steel mtb with TI everything else that see’s/has seen it’s fair share of rhode miles. I like it.

I also have a FULL ALUMINUM full suspension Titus Racer X. Even though it’s the bastard metal aluminum has it’s application in full suspension. I wouldn’t want it any other way.

Ti and Carbon F/S’s purely propaganda like the bastard mix but hey they are selling if your buying. It’s your money have at it.

Ok that’s about all i have to say right now but if you have any other questions feel free to ask.

 

[MtnbikeMike]

Just curious...why the carbon hate?

 

[The Toninator]

Just curious...why the carbon hate?

eh gotta take a stand on something right?

I'm not sure i can actually put it into words but i'll try.

like aluminum i believe it has it's applications and i think it is also abused.
Old skool carbon was good initially but turned crappy quickly. The newer generation I guess is worth a look. Not personally for me though AND i think should only be considered in monoquoce(sp?) construction.
Now on to the bastardization crossover.
TI is what it is. It's light, it's stiff but compliant. It's already perfect they should leave it alone. I have never heard a serious or good argument for the cross over. It's marketing just like how convenient 1/2 liter water bottles are. Marketing. I feel the same about custom steel and especially now with this mystery Indy 953. I'm really excited about learning more.
Now the bastard metal, aluminum. AL is rigid thats it's job. Depending on frame design, doesn’t make for such a compliant ride like unlike TI, Steel or the bastard element. BUT AL has a perfect application if full suspensions mtb frames. It also has it's application it stupid light road frames(mtb frames also) but the ride quality is that of a cinder block.
So now we've come full circle to the most practical application i believe carbon is useful for, carbon rear on an aluminum frame with carbon fork. Walaha! A light, compliant, CHEAP bike frame.
That's the way i see it.
I could be wrong. It's only my opinion. Take it for what it's worth, it's free.
t

 

[The Toninator]

Oh also, just incase you missed it, is a great material for components although i know they'll never last as long as my TI stuff.

 

[MtnbikeMike]

All I gotta say is....I love my carbon Fuel :love:

 

[The Toninator]

All I gotta say is....I love my carbon Fuel :love:

that's great you should! it's a nice...ok very nice ride. the etough dood kicks bootie on his.

 

[MtnbikeMike]

But I'm selling it...I have an alu KHS coming.

 

[Reactor]

Totally different bikes, apples and oranges, sounds like people you know got old.

IMHO the Madone rides a lot better then the Tarmac and the Pilot rides a lot better then the Roubiax, but the Roubiax looks a lot better. Most people think the Pilots look like poo thanks to the graphics on them, and the only reason I think they are more popular.

I like my Roubaix, and if I'm not mistaken DRB likes his, but to each his own. I'm not knocking the Treks by any means. I'm thinking about TI or steel for the next bike, but hopefully that's a while off.

 

[The Toninator]

What about steel and carbon? Any thoughts?

have you rode this year? sure does look purdy.

 

[jacksonpt]

have you rode this year? sure does look purdy.

Never ridden that. Haven't been on the road yet this year due to all the salt. A fair amount of trainer time though with my quest.

 

[sanjuro]

eh gotta take a stand on something right?

I'm not sure i can actually put it into words but i'll try.

like aluminum i believe it has it's applications and i think it is also abused.
Old skool carbon was good initially but turned crappy quickly. The newer generation I guess is worth a look. Not personally for me though AND i think should only be considered in monoquoce(sp?) construction.
Now on to the bastardization crossover.
TI is what it is. It's light, it's stiff but compliant. It's already perfect they should leave it alone. I have never heard a serious or good argument for the cross over. It's marketing just like how convenient 1/2 liter water bottles are. Marketing. I feel the same about custom steel and especially now with this mystery Indy 953. I'm really excited about learning more.
Now the bastard metal, aluminum. AL is rigid thats it's job. Depending on frame design, doesn’t make for such a compliant ride like unlike TI, Steel or the bastard element. BUT AL has a perfect application if full suspensions mtb frames. It also has it's application it stupid light road frames(mtb frames also) but the ride quality is that of a cinder block.
So now we've come full circle to the most practical application i believe carbon is useful for, carbon rear on an aluminum frame with carbon fork. Walaha! A light, compliant, CHEAP bike frame.
That's the way i see it.
I could be wrong. It's only my opinion. Take it for what it's worth, it's free.

Funny, at the Handbuilt Bike Show, I met the rep for a very popular carbon manufacturer, and he and I had a very long discussion about frame materials.

First of all, they are many qualities to a good bike, and each material has its strong and weak points:

Can you make a light bike out of steel?
Can you make a durable bike out of carbon?
Can you make a compliant bike out of alu?
Can you make a cheap bike out of ti?
(and I know the answer can be yes to all these questions if you wanted to make a crappy riding bike)

Mixed materials is one way around the weak points.

But you had some definitive opinions, but very easily debatable. Like monocoque frames. One huge downside to monocoque is the lack of customization. The tube/lug method allows you to customize every aspect from fit to ride quality.

Finally, the reason why I was talking with the carbon bike rep is the popularity of carbon bikes. Hate or love them, they are here to stay.

 

[The Toninator]

Funny, at the Handbuilt Bike Show, I met the rep for a very popular carbon manufacturer, and he and I had a very long discussion about frame materials.

First of all, they are many qualities to a good bike, and each material has its strong and weak points:

Can you make a light bike out of steel?
Can you make a durable bike out of carbon?
Can you make a compliant bike out of alu?
Can you make a cheap bike out of ti?
(and I know the answer can be yes to all these questions if you wanted to make a crappy riding bike)

Mixed materials is one way around the weak points.

But you had some definitive opinions, but very easily debatable. Like monocoque frames. One huge downside to monocoque is the lack of customization. The tube/lug method allows you to customize every aspect from fit to ride quality.

Finally, the reason why I was talking with the carbon bike rep is the popularity of carbon bikes. Hate or love them, they are here to stay.

Funny, I had a similar conversation last year at the hand made bike show. BUT i was talking with a steel tubing manufacture. Fortunately NONE of them had crossed over yet.
Crumption makes one BAD A$$ carbon cyclocross bike.
TRUE about the debate though I'm not the authority it's just my opinion based on some admittedly limited knowledge (in some areas)

 

[sanjuro]

btw, I think a steel/carbon bike is idiotic.

 

[The Toninator]

btw, I think a steel/carbon bike is idiotic.

YEAH!!!!

 

[The Jinx]

Yo yo yo!

Long time I didnt spend my time in RM.

Now we are talking carbon?! :mumble:

My '06 plan is to ride carbon. I'm in the midst ordering VXRS then was offered R2.5 Bayonne! The irrestible deal.

My R2.5 Bayonne is coming next week. Not sure of what parts to put on Dura 10s or Record 10s. :love:

After ridden Alu (Prince SL), Mag (Dogma) now it's time for carbon...:love:

Rode Zipp 404 (dimpled) custom with CK hubset now, it's ROCK!

Regards
sbw

 

[jacksonpt]

Interesting post Jackson. I'm thinking about looking for an Orbea this summer for long rides up here. I haven't ridden them yet, but in the name of research, if you'd care to elaborate how it felt "more delicate" I'd be interested to hear about it.

It's hard to explain. When I was demoing different bikes before I bought my quest, I tried lots of alu frame and a few steel. All the while I never really thought about the frame as a weak point - I thought about how it rode and how it fit, but never about it's durability or how it would hold up to my 180lbs.

On my dad's carbon frame, it didn't feel as solid under me. I couldn't feel the road as much, and I wondered how the frame would respond if took a good hit from a pothole or whatever. My steel frame wouldn't miss a beat in that case... so it's one less thing I have to think about. Perhaps it was because it was my first ride and carbon and I was more aware of that kind of thing... I dunno. But it wasn't as confidence-inspiring as my steel frame.

You ever ride a XC bike that you have to pick your way down the trail, then get on a trail bike that you can just go ride and not think about anything but having fun... it was kind of like that... that's the best analogy I can think of.

 

[ito]

btw, I think a steel/carbon bike is idiotic.

Just wondering, but why?

I'm getting a handbuilt steel xc bike with carbon rear seat stays and I'm looking forward to it. However I'd like to hear your argument, it is too late for me to change my mind though, bike is waiting for paint....:love:

The Ito

 

[LordOpie]

since we're talking materials...

how about some input on magnesium or scandium or another newer used material?