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Now pagin manimal...what say ye to being recorded?

ridetoofast

scarred, broken and drunk
Mar 31, 2002
2,095
5
crashing at a trail near you...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284075,00.html

Straight Talk: Videotaping Police

Monday, June 18, 2007

By Radley Balko

BUENOS AIRES — Last month, Brian Kelly of Carlisle, Pa., was riding with a friend when the car he was in was pulled over by a local police officer. Kelly, an amateur videographer, had his video camera with him and decided to record the traffic stop.

The officer who pulled over the vehicle saw the camera and demanded Kelly hand it over. Kelly obliged. Soon after, six more police officers pulled up. They arrested Kelly on charges of violating an outdated Pennsylvania wiretapping law that forbids audio recordings of any second party without their permission. In this case, that party was the police officer.

Kelly was charged with a felony, spent 26 hours in jail, and faces up to 10 years in prison. All for merely recording a police officer, a public servant, while he was on the job.

There's been a rash of arrests of late for videotaping police, and it's a disturbing development. Last year, Massachusetts Attorney General Tom Reilly threatened Internet activist Mary T. Jean with arrest and felony prosecution for posting a video to her website of state police swarming a home and arresting a man without a warrant.

Michael Gannon of New Hampshire was also arrested on felony wiretapping charges last year after recording a police officer who was being verbally abusive on his
doorstep. Photojournalist Carlos Miller was arrested in February of this year after taking pictures of on-duty police officers in Miami.


And Philadelphia student Neftaly Cruz was arrested last year after he took pictures of a drug bust with his cell phone.

As noted, police are public servants, paid with taxpayer dollars. Not only that, but they're given extraordinary power and authority we don't give to other public servants: They're armed; they can make arrests; they're allowed to break the very laws they're paid to enforce; they can use lethal force for reasons other than self-defense; and, of course, the police are permitted to videotape us
without our consent.

It's critical that we retain the right to record, videotape or photograph the police while they're on duty. Not only for symbolic reasons (when agents of the state can confiscate evidence of their own wrongdoing, you're treading on seriously perilous ground), but as an important check on police excesses. In the age of YouTube, video of police misconduct captured
by private citizens can have an enormous impact.

Consider Eugene Siler. In 2005, the Campbell County, Tenn., man was confronted by five sheriff's deputies who (they say) suspected him of drug activity. Siler's wife surreptitiously switched on a tape recorder when the police officers came inside. Over the next hour, Siler was
mercilessly beaten and tortured by the officers, who were demanding he confess to drug activity. Siler was poor, illiterate and had a nonviolent criminal record. Without that recording, it's unlikely
anyone would have believed his account of the torture over the word of five sheriff's deputies.

Earlier this year, Iraq war veteran Elio Carrion was shot three times at near-point-blank range by San Bernardino, Calif., deputy Ivory Webb. Carrion was lying on the ground and was unarmed. Video of the arrest and shooting, however, was captured by bystander Jose Louis Valdez. Webb since has been fired from the police department and is on trial on charges of attempted voluntary manslaughter and assault with a firearm. The video is the key piece of evidence in his trial.

While it's possible that police and prosecutors would have believed Carrion's version of events over Webb's even without the video, it seems unlikely. Webb is the first officer to be indicted in the history of the San Bernardino Police Department.

These are merely recent examples. There are more.

Many police departments across the country recently have added roof-mounted cameras to patrol cars that record traffic all stops.

This is a positive development, and protects not just citizens from rogue cops, but cops from citizens who make frivolous complaints. I've argued in the past that other police activities should be recorded, particularly SWAT-style raids that involve forced entry into private homes.

But it shouldn't end there. Legislators need to repeal laws explicitly forbidding the recording, photographing or videotaping of police officers. And to the extent that more generalized wiretapping laws meant for the general public also apply to the police, they should be amended to allow private citizens to record officers while they're on duty.

This isn't to say police don't have the same privacy rights as everyone else. They do — when they aren't on duty, in possession of a sidearm and carrying with them the authority that
comes with enforcing the law of the state.

But while they're on duty, they serve the public. And the public, their employer, should have
every right to keep them accountable.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
How can the cops record when citizens can't? Is there some specific paragraph in these laws that allow that?

I should think that any district that has cops recording automatically set a precedent that allows others to record them.
 

pnj

Turbo Monkey till the fat lady sings
Aug 14, 2002
4,696
40
seattle
I'm sure it varys state to state but I thought if your out in public you don't have the same privacy as you would in your home or other private area.

I know in seattle that it was (is?)LEGAL to video tape up a womans skirt if she was in public. Just like it was (is?) legal to have sex with animals....
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
I dont have any disagreement with that at all. They're public servants and with the power they yield (both with weaponry and in testomony) ever opportunity should be taken to ensure they're being responsible.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
41,280
13,395
Portland, OR
That's some serious crap. What about all the cop beatings like Rodney King that was filmed by a third party? Would that be against the law as well?

I would think since a cop has a dash cam, you should be allowed to have one too.
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,212
17
Blindly running into cactus
That's some serious crap. What about all the cop beatings like Rodney King that was filmed by a third party? Would that be against the law as well?

I would think since a cop has a dash cam, you should be allowed to have one too.

i don't have a problem with being recorded as long as my attorneys have full access to the video if something arises from the recorded incident. for instance, rodney king....most people only see the end of the video where rodney is getting a beat down, what the media never shows is what provoked the use of force which led the public to believe that he was just randomly beaten for the heck of it.
so i have no problem with video, heck, a lot of our cars have -icop- now which records everything all the time if necessary and supervisors can log onto my in car camera from any remote location.

so i agree, in most cases, that being the star of amatuer video is just part of the job. there are times, however, that call for media silence to prevent or provoke further civil unrest.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Like the 3-4 riots that happened around me in Miami when sh!t got blown out of proportion.

How does it help to make things worse?

Like when the Latino cop shot the black guy on a motorcycle in the early 80s. I don't think the cop knew who was on the bike, just that the motorcyclist just tried to run him over.

How does the media telling everyone that it was some sort of hate crime by the cop? Fvcking riots.
 
Jun 15, 2006
28
0
no wonder most young people hate pigs, so typical. give a man a badge and he thinks hes kings o the land, im waiting for the day when something like any of the video examples happens and the people fight back. now that would make for some gettin even entertainment
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Like the 3-4 riots that happened around me in Miami when sh!t got blown out of proportion.

How does it help to make things worse?

Like when the Latino cop shot the black guy on a motorcycle in the early 80s. I don't think the cop knew who was on the bike, just that the motorcyclist just tried to run him over.

How does the media telling everyone that it was some sort of hate crime by the cop? Fvcking riots.
You have some sort of link or something for that? Because the media telling people it was a hate crime is different than reporting that a cop shot a black guy (hell, in LA that isn't even news anymore...)
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,698
1,749
chez moi
What's the deal with the "empowered to break the laws they're supposed to enforce" sentence? That's total BS.

If you're talking about traffic laws, cops are obliged to follow them...however, the laws also state where cops are permitted to do things the rest of us can't. That's not breaking the law...the laws state what and when they can and can't do. They can't just break into someone's house; the laws likewise delineate the procedures and limits on their power. If they go beyond what the law allows, they can be prosecuted like any other criminal according to the law.

Anyhow, as someone in a related line of work, I'm ambivalent about taping things. Taping always leads to a point of view, and sometimes this is bad for the officers... Let's say two officers confront a subject who reaches for an officer's gun at close range. Someone from across the street videotapes it, but you can't see the movement from that point of view...when they shoot the guy (obvious proper use of force by Constitutional and all other legal standards), the video is introduced and two officers go down in front of a jury who's convinced they're seeing a wanton slaying.

Of course, the video can work the other way, too...so like I said, I'm ambivalent. However, I also don't like fostering a lack of trust in our police, and the introduction of more and more video means that juries and the public will doubt the word and experience of officers unless they're backed by vid...and that's bad.

We have a similar thing going on now with forensics...due to all these TV shows, juries often expect some kind of incontrovertible scientific evidence, accompanied by computer graphics, over tradional police work and interviews/testimony, even for the most basic crimes or those that lack any kind of physical evidence. It's called the "CSI effect," and it's a real pain in the ass.

Anyhow, yeah, there are ****bag corrupt cops out there, and they need to go down harder than any other criminal, but by and large they're just trying to do their difficult jobs correctly, and forced to make split second decisions with big consequences.
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
41,280
13,395
Portland, OR
for instance, rodney king....most people only see the end of the video where rodney is getting a beat down, what the media never shows is what provoked the use of force which led the public to believe that he was just randomly beaten for the heck of it.
I've never said he didn't deserve being beaten, but the level of beating he got was excessive by anyones standards.

The term "whoop his monkey ass 'til it aint no fun" comes to mind. But that was years ago, no sense in rehashing all that.

But I agree that if it is used against you, it should be made available to you as defense as well. I think that holds true for anyone, popo or otherwise.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Of course, the video can work the other way, too...so like I said, I'm ambivalent. However, I also don't like fostering a lack of trust in our police, and the introduction of more and more video means that juries and the public will doubt the word and experience of officers unless they're backed by vid...and that's bad.
Too bad. You're sleeping in the bed that the blue wall of silence has made. If cops were proactive about getting rid of their corrupt buddies, the stain wouldn't be over everyone wearing a uniform.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
We have a similar thing going on now with forensics...due to all these TV shows, juries often expect some kind of incontrovertible scientific evidence, accompanied by computer graphics, over tradional police work and interviews/testimony, even for the most basic crimes or those that lack any kind of physical evidence. It's called the "CSI effect," and it's a real pain in the ass.
Now that is a legitimate situation to be concerned about. I'm sure that our education system, which is based on teaching rational thought and sound scientific principles will solve this problem...:rofl:
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,212
17
Blindly running into cactus
Too bad. You're sleeping in the bed that the blue wall of silence has made. If cops were proactive about getting rid of their corrupt buddies, the stain wouldn't be over everyone wearing a uniform.
or...maybe not everyone is as corrupt as your paranoid brain makes you believe it is. every officer that i know of from my department that had any image of corruption was immediately fired, and it was for small stuff. i can see how some large agencies can let bad apples slip through the supervisory cracks, but i have yet to work with an officer that would risk his/her job and lie for me on the stand and i'm definitely not going to risk my career to cover up a mistake. the public will forgive mistakes over time, but corruption only breeds distrust and most agencies understand that and won't put up with it.
i hate that people always bring up the "blue line of silence" crap but i also understand why they do. with policing, critics ONLY remember the big cases where corrpution was present but no one ever recalls the crap we have to put with on a daily basis and the fact that we deal with the dirt of society and how difficult it is to stay completely clean when you're rolling in the metaphorical mud.

anyway, this is all wasted type for folks like you silver because you're mind is set that no one would ever perform a job like this out of pure motives and that everyone is corrupt until proven otherwise...even if the opportunity to prove purity never arises.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
or...maybe not everyone is as corrupt as your paranoid brain makes you believe it is. every officer that i know of from my department that had any image of corruption was immediately fired, and it was for small stuff. i can see how some large agencies can let bad apples slip through the supervisory cracks, but i have yet to work with an officer that would risk his/her job and lie for me on the stand and i'm definitely not going to risk my career to cover up a mistake. the public will forgive mistakes over time, but corruption only breeds distrust and most agencies understand that and won't put up with it.
i hate that people always bring up the "blue line of silence" crap but i also understand why they do. with policing, critics ONLY remember the big cases where corrpution was present but no one ever recalls the crap we have to put with on a daily basis and the fact that we deal with the dirt of society and how difficult it is to stay completely clean when you're rolling in the metaphorical mud.
Actually, I never gave a number of how many police officers I thought were corrupt. However, the public perception is that is happens, and happens frequently. There's even a name for it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testilying

There's an interesting link in there that I'm going to read tonight:

http://www.soc.umn.edu/~samaha/cases/slobogin, testilying.htm

Once again, you're transferring anger to me that should be placed elsewhere. You don't seriously mean to tell me that every cop "smells marijuana" every time they do a warrant less search, do you? I'd love to believe that's true, but I've got to go with my lying eyes on that one.

(As an aside, I'm not paranoid. If that was a marijuana smoking reference, it's totally wasted (haha!) on me. In the first place, I don't smoke, and secondly, even if I did it pointing it out would hardly offend or wound me. Now, Changleen, that guy is paranoid...)

anyway, this is all wasted type for folks like you silver because you're mind is set that no one would ever perform a job like this out of pure motives and that everyone is corrupt until proven otherwise...even if the opportunity to prove purity never arises.
Again, I never said that. I merely said that police officers are sleeping in the bed that they made. For a humorous example, here's one with hospital corners on it:

http://www.foxnews.com//story/0,2933,271194,00.html
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
Manimal I think you've got your head in the sand if you think corruption doesn't exist in every single police force. I actually don't think police can properly do their jobs without a certain level of corruption, especially in the more senior ranks. Corruption doesn't have to mean Serpico $100 bills in little brown envelopes every month it can be as simple as the bar owner giving free or cheap drinks to off duty officers so they'll respond quicker to trouble/won't put their patrol cars directly outside the pub at closing time 7 nights a week (both things happen in Australia).
Higher in the ranks it means letting some crims operate in return for a reduction in street/petty crime. This happens in Japan with the Yakuza.
Manimal I don't doubt you're a straight shooter and good on you, you seem like a great cop but to think corruption doesn't exist or isn't tolerated at least to some level in your force is naive. It's the nature of the beast.
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,212
17
Blindly running into cactus
Manimal I think you've got your head in the sand if you think corruption doesn't exist in every single police force. I actually don't think police can properly do their jobs without a certain level of corruption, especially in the more senior ranks. Corruption doesn't have to mean Serpico $100 bills in little brown envelopes every month it can be as simple as the bar owner giving free or cheap drinks to off duty officers so they'll respond quicker to trouble/won't put their patrol cars directly outside the pub at closing time 7 nights a week (both things happen in Australia).
Higher in the ranks it means letting some crims operate in return for a reduction in street/petty crime. This happens in Japan with the Yakuza.
Manimal I don't doubt you're a straight shooter and good on you, you seem like a great cop but to think corruption doesn't exist or isn't tolerated at least to some level in your force is naive. It's the nature of the beast.
thanks for the lesson in basic ethics and i see your point, however, there is a big difference in the municipal politics that the higher ups have to play in order to get things done as opposed to turning a blind eye to crime. i know everyone in my department and i feel confident that corruption on the level that this thread has referred to is despised by all it's members. i know it exists in policing, heck..just google Greensboro, NC and check out all of the problems they've had in the last couple of years. the point i'm making is that the common public perception of law enforcement is always to assume that every cop is corrupt in some way...and that just isn't so, it's by far the minority but people only remember the bad stuff.
i can only "be proactive" about the ethics of the officers in my department. by stating [silver] "If cops were proactive about getting rid of their corrupt buddies, the stain wouldn't be over everyone wearing a uniform.", i vented my comment toward you for a reason because you are the one making the accusations and assumptions about the "blue line of silence."
you also said, "You don't seriously mean to tell me that every cop "smells marijuana" every time they do a warrant less search, do you? I'd love to believe that's true, but I've got to go with my lying eyes on that one." well, actually, i've never made a warrantless search without PC to do so and neither have any of my partners while i've been working. oh yes, i know it happens but for you to believe that there aren't officers out there who would never cross that line is naive and only reflects your character and inability to trust your fellow man with anything.
and no, the paranoid comment was not a pothead reference. i was just observing your constant distrust of anything authoritative.

it all comes down to this. i am given the discretion to decide how to handle a situation and i have to make character judgements on people everyday. a good portion of the people i deal with receive the benefit of the doubt and i'm sure some of them didn't deserve it. so hopefully, one day, people will do the same for my profession and hold their judgement for a case by case basis as i have to do. but then again, it's much easier just to "profile" us not consider the fact that maybe, we really do want to help people.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Just out of curiosity, did you read that link that I mentioned? There are some amazing quotes in there.

We may not be talking about the same thing when we mean corruption, either. I'm not just talking about sodomizing a black guy with a plunger handle, or slamming a retarded handcuffed kids head into the trunk of a police cruiser. I'm talking about little procedural issues that slide all the time. How do I know they slide all the time? Because of stuff like this:

FN13. Myron W. Orfield, Jr., Deterrence, Perjury, and the Heater Factor: An Exclusionary Rule in the Chicago Criminal Courts, 63 U. Colo. L. Rev. 75, 107 (1992) (survey of prosecutors, defense attorneys, and judges indicates a belief that, on average, perjury occurs 20% of the time, with defense attorneys estimating it occurs 53% of the time in connection with Fourth Amendment issues; only 8% believe that police never, or almost never, lie in court)

So, when I read something like that...do I draw the wrong conclusion?

Should I trust all the police I come into contact with? Prudence demands that I don't. The consequences of trusting a bad cop are much worse for me than the hassle I may cause myself by distrusting an honest cop, because I don't know if I'm dealing with a "bad apple" or not.

I find it interesting you bring up the bad apple thing: How does the second half of that little bit of folk wisdom go?
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Corruption and abuse of power are not the same thing. I could easily believe that true corruption is rare, while at the same time the MAJORITY of police officers have at some point abused their power at the expense of a citizens well-being, civil rights, or just time/convenience (as in, yes you can make up a reason to haul me to the clink and it will hold up in court, but we all know you're just doing it to be a dick).
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,452
1,980
Front Range, dude...
Tried to stay away...

Silver, should you trust all the people you come into contact with? Prudence demands that you don't...

Cops are like everyone else. Good ones, bad ones, ones running down the middle of the road. Only difference is that when a dirty Cop gets busted, EVERYONE knows about it. As they should.

Should Cops be held to a higher moral standard then say, CEOs? Congressmen? Teachers?

When you say that "the consequences of trusting a bad cop are much worse for me than the hassle I may cause myself by distrusting an honest cop, because I don't know if I'm dealing with a "bad apple" or not", how does the "good apple" Cop know about you? We all claim to be pure, but are we? I was taught a long time ago (In Cop school) to hope for the best, and prepare for the worst.

Some of you rush to judge all Cops corrupt, and then cry out that you are being stereotyped.

Hello Pot, this is Kettle...Come in, Kettle...
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Tried to stay away...

Silver, should you trust all the people you come into contact with? Prudence demands that you don't...

Cops are like everyone else. Good ones, bad ones, ones running down the middle of the road. Only difference is that when a dirty Cop gets busted, EVERYONE knows about it. As they should.

Should Cops be held to a higher moral standard then say, CEOs? Congressmen? Teachers?

When you say that "the consequences of trusting a bad cop are much worse for me than the hassle I may cause myself by distrusting an honest cop, because I don't know if I'm dealing with a "bad apple" or not", how does the "good apple" Cop know about you? We all claim to be pure, but are we? I was taught a long time ago (In Cop school) to hope for the best, and prepare for the worst.

Some of you rush to judge all Cops corrupt, and then cry out that you are being stereotyped.

Hello Pot, this is Kettle...Come in, Kettle...
Cops should be held to the highest moral standard when it comes to the law. As it is their job/role/vocation to enforce the law then they should not themselves break it, not if they wish to retain the trust of the society in which they operate.

Just as politicians, CEOs and perhaps teachers have lost trust due to abuse of position so will the police. They should not be free from oversight.

The difference between John Doe and a cop is that the cop wields substantially more power and influence; with that comes responsibility.
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,452
1,980
Front Range, dude...
Cops should be held to the highest moral standard when it comes to the law
But everyone else gets a pass? Teachers, clergy, politicians? All wield great influence also...Cops dont trade their humanity for a badge.
Dont get me wrong, I believe dirty Cops should get the hammer, as should others who abuse their power. There are dirtbags EVERYWHERE, in every career field.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Cops should be held to the highest moral standard when it comes to the law
But everyone else gets a pass? Teachers, clergy, politicians? All wield great influence also...Cops dont trade their humanity for a badge.
Dont get me wrong, I believe dirty Cops should get the hammer, as should others who abuse their power. There are dirtbags EVERYWHERE, in every career field.
No one should get a free pass, but then the cops are watching everyone else anyway, aren't they?

Note the word law.

Yes there are dirtbags everywhere, and no abuse of power is acceptable. You cannot justify corruption and abuse on the basis of 'someone else does it', can you?
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,698
1,749
chez moi
(as in, yes you can make up a reason to haul me to the clink and it will hold up in court, but we all know you're just doing it to be a dick).
Dude, I said I was sorry.
 

JohnE

filthy rascist
May 13, 2005
13,452
1,980
Front Range, dude...
No one should get a free pass, but then the cops are watching everyone else anyway, aren't they?

Note the word law.

Yes there are dirtbags everywhere, and no abuse of power is acceptable. You cannot justify corruption and abuse on the basis of 'someone else does it', can you?
Not justifying anything, just sayong that ALL the dirtbags should get the shaft, no matter who they are or know. I think the whole Paris Hilton thing sets a good precedent. Thank God she did her hard time...