Quantcast

OUR country, the USA

Thepagoda

Chimp
Aug 31, 2002
60
0
Davis, CA
Everyone seems to be thinking a lot about Iraq these days. That's good, this crisis should not wash over idle minds. I haven't heard anybody talk about what is going on in the US though. True there have been mentions of increased oil prices and our soldiers at war, but I'm going to talk about something else. I want to adress our education system. I want to adress our Prison system. I want to adress our medicare system. I want to adress the economy. I want to adress the standings of the citizens of the USA.

Education. Our education is among the worst of the industrialized nations, yet we still continue to make cuts to it so that F-22 fighters can control the skys from which B-2 bombers drop bombs. Over the next few years the Navy and Marine Corps plan to spend in the ballpark of $35 million perplane for about 600 or so new F/A-18 E/F super hornets, this is not to mention the air force's plans to purchase some two squadrons F-22s (For in the ballpark of $100 Million a piece). That totals out to about $2.4 billion (total squadrons cost are only an estimated $200 million more than the cost of a B-2). good planes, but not necessary to fight the "war on terror." With 13, the US has 10 more carriers (all of them classified as Supercarriers) than the next closest Navy in the world (our ally Great Britain), yet our education system is in shambles. Arts AND science programs are being cut to help make funds for our efforts over seas. More money is being spent on the war in Iraq than is being spent on education (yearly). Our test scores indicate that our children are not measuring up to the standards of the rest of the world. Most of our high school graduates do not read at a 12th grade level, the estimated standard is optimidtically placed at the 10th grade.

Prisons. Our prisons have been becoming overly crowded over the past three decades. Prison rates have risen 40% over the last 30 years alone. the US has the highest incarceration rate (at one million plus) of any western nation, yet the only response made is to put more police officers out in the streets and to build more prisons, all the while cutting proven prison education programs.

Economy. Common statements have been that "its still the economy stupid," but Bush seems to be more focused on the "axis of evil" than the country that did not even elect him. The economy is in the dumps, and the only major efforts to alleviate this problem have been to lower interst rates and to go to war. the first is according to the SOP of our country's economics, the second seemed to work in WWII. Lowering interest rates has not helped all that much in stimulating an economy that is wrought with false profit supporting and bankrupcy. War may have kicked us out of the depression, but we are a sevice oriented nation now, not a production nation. This should be realized before it is considered that war might help out the economy. The political arena seems poised to start a cold ar that is set up to battle terrorists, as the cold war helped the post WWII economy through four full decades. I remain skeptical of this scheme.

Medicare. Where is it? Just a few months ago there was a post on here to raise some money for Rhino from WA because he had hurt himself in a crash and had no insurance. the bills were going to take the rest of the man's life to pay off (and may still in spite of monkey efforts). If the good 'ol USA had socialized medicine like other western countries like Australia, Sweden, France, blah, blah, blah, then this type of issue would not be a problem. The insurance business makes Billions of dollars every year because it is not worth it to risk no insurance. Social medicine could be provided at a much lower cost (because the government would not need to profit form it) than insured health care.

FOrget Saddam for a second, what do you think about what is going on here in the good 'ol USA?
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,212
17
Blindly running into cactus
Originally posted by Thepagoda

Bush seems to be more focused on the "axis of evil" than the country that did not even elect him.
when are you sore losers going to get over the fact that gore lost? it was close...but he lost!

i don't even want to think about how bad the good 'ole USA would be with that tart in charge.
 
Jan 25, 2003
64
0
los altos, ca
the education is sh!t in california. davis wants to cut 1/3 off the schools budget, and why? so the prisoners can have a nicer prison, so they can enjoy the rest of their lives for crimes they should rot in a cell with nothing but a bed and a toilet for.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Originally posted by androshandrew
the education is sh!t in california. davis wants to cut 1/3 off the schools budget, and why? so the prisoners can have a nicer prison, so they can enjoy the rest of their lives for crimes they should rot in a cell with nothing but a bed and a toilet for.
You're talking out of your ass. First off, I find that attitude naive when there are many people in jail for non-violent drug offenses. And even if they are there for serious offenses, does that somehow mean that we don't need to treat them like humans anymore? Hell, why don't we torture prisoners for fun? We could show it on Fox.

The cynical part of me blames the education cuts and rise in prison budget on the fact that the prison guards union in California is one of the biggest contributors to Gray Davis.
 

Stellite

Monkey
Feb 21, 2002
124
0
ManASSas, VA
Originally posted by manimal
when are you sore losers going to get over the fact that gore lost? it was close...but he lost!

i don't even want to think about how bad the good 'ole USA would be with that tart in charge.
took the words right out of my mouth:D :D :D
 
Jan 25, 2003
64
0
los altos, ca
Originally posted by Silver
You're talking out of your ass. First off, I find that attitude naive when there are many people in jail for non-violent drug offenses. And even if they are there for serious offenses, does that somehow mean that we don't need to treat them like humans anymore? Hell, why don't we torture prisoners for fun? We could show it on Fox.

The cynical part of me blames the education cuts and rise in prison budget on the fact that the prison guards union in California is one of the biggest contributors to Gray Davis.
so youd rather have the prisoners live in nice cells and have activites than teaching kids? class size will double, all sports, clubs, and afterschool activities will be cut, all the arts are gone.
The prisoners shouldnt have to live in a sh!t hole, but to take the money to imrove them out of education is wrong
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by manimal
when are you sore losers going to get over the fact that gore lost? it was close...but he lost!
Congrats on diverting the thread through the least significant portion of pagoda's post.
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,212
17
Blindly running into cactus
Originally posted by ohio
Congrats on diverting the thread through the least significant portion of pagoda's post.
thank you..thank you. i didn't feel like doing research and debating the meat of his thread, so i just spouted off on the 1 thing that i could debate on:D
 

Damn True

Monkey Pimp
Sep 10, 2001
4,015
3
Between a rock and a hard place.
Originally posted by Silver
You're talking out of your ass. First off, I find that attitude naive when there are many people in jail for non-violent drug offenses. And even if they are there for serious offenses, does that somehow mean that we don't need to treat them like humans anymore? Hell, why don't we torture prisoners for fun? We could show it on Fox.

The cynical part of me blames the education cuts and rise in prison budget on the fact that the prison guards union in California is one of the biggest contributors to Gray Davis.
Oh, I dunno. I think we ought to treat kids who need an education better than we treat convicted criminals. Given the choice between buying AC units, books, new construction etc. for schools or for prisons I will always lean toward the schools.

Perhaps if the kids get better educations there will at some point in the future be a reduced need for prisons.

I'm all for the Arizona "prison camp" concept. I saw some lovely places for such facilities this weekend while driving to Vegas along I-15.
 

Triphop

Chimp
Sep 10, 2002
96
0
The prisons are too nice as it is. Prison should be a place *feared*. Granted there needs to be seperate facilities for those non-violent drug offenders and the like, but the life sentence prisoners, in there for cold blooded murder, should have to rot in stone walled cell, with a hole in the ground for bodily waste. The vivtims families have to live everyday without a loved one, therefor, the criminal should have to live everyday in a manner that they will not forget that person either.

As for education, I agree we need alot more resources devoted to that.

Disagree with the socialized medicine, private healthcare is of a much higher quality than any socilaized system. Have you ever been in a hospital in a foreign country? Scary. Socialized medicine would most likely result in education just getting cut further.
 
As a high school kid in California, I am damn glad I'm out of school this year, because my high school is headed straight for hell. The pathetic school systems are the result of a state whose government gambled all of its surplus funds in the telecommunication boom, who now has no cash left to pay for its own employees pensions. If anyone thinks our administration cares about individuals like us, think again. It is no secet that education is not the first priority of American society, probably thrre places behind cars and big screen tv's, and it is not a coincident that incarcenation rate in the Sun Shine state skyrocketed during the biggest boom in the state's history since the Gold Rush.
the bottom line is, the lack of education leads to ignorance, and that's exactly what Bush thrives on.
Stay in school. i know I will.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
this whole thing is pretty stupid! (not you peeps or this thread)

The solution is simple... deciminalize lots of those non-violent crimes like prostitution and weed... then tax them big time. it'll reduce prison crowding and yield more revenue for the gov't. to blow. Hopefully some will be put to good use.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Originally posted by LordOpie
this whole thing is pretty stupid! (not you peeps or this thread)

The solution is simple... deciminalize lots of those non-violent crimes like prostitution and weed... then tax them big time. it'll reduce prison crowding and yield more revenue for the gov't. to blow. Hopefully some will be put to good use.
If that is what Americans would consider a proper solution, we may as well forget about even educating our kids, because once their government tells them its ok to sell drugs, use drugs and sell their bodies for money, the country will go down the Shi**er anyway.

Both prostitution and drug use can be directly related to violence, and they're simply immoral. Now, you can argue what you want about how your morals and mine dont coencide, but go to another country with laws and a judicial system similar to ours, but without moral influence (ie Thailand) and tell me it doesnt make a difference.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
The attorney general disagrees with you:

“It’s said that we shouldn’t legislate morality. Well, I think all we should legislate is morality.” -John Ashcroft in Charisma Magazine, 1999.
 

LoboDelFuego

Monkey
Mar 5, 2002
193
0
Originally posted by LordOpie
i'd rather not have my morals dictated to me by my gov't.
I'd rather not have my children be offered drugs or have my daughter "recruited" to serve as a hooker.

I always thought there should be two prisons. Here is thingy did for homework 4 years ago, in 6th grade:

Prison Reforms

Apart from actual reforms within the prison buildings themselves like having sir conditioning or cable, I think that there should be a different system that decides who goes to which type of prison.

The first type would be for non-corporeal crimes. Sometimes people call this non violent crime but my category is different. Non-corporeal would be anything that didn’t directly harm the body of a person. For example if you robbed a bank or used a computer to steal money from a bank you would not be physically hurting anyone, or if you didn’t pay your taxes. The prison would be nice with individual cells and outside areas for playing like sports games between prisoners. They would like to have books and personal items like things their families sent them, and the prisoners wouldn’t have to do hard work. It is more like separation from society and not punishment.

The second type is for corporeal crimes. This is violent crime and other things that can directly hurt the person. This category includes murderers, child abusers, violent people who get into fights, drug dealers, weapons dealers, and violent robbers who harmed their victims. They would have bad communal cells with no amenities. They would have to do hard work like farming food or building things. The food would be used to feed the prisoners in both divisions. We cannot stop crime, but this system will ensure that any further crime that happens will be non-corporeal because n one will want to risk the more punishing prison.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
I'd rather not have my children be offered drugs or have my daughter "recruited" to serve as a hooker.
then that's up to you to raise your children based on your morals. And when they become adults, hopefully your positive influence will lead them down the path that's best for them. And if you think I'm suggesting this be legal for minors, then you're really jumping to conclusions.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Originally posted by BurlySurly
If that is what Americans would consider a proper solution, we may as well forget about even educating our kids, because once their government tells them its ok to sell drugs, use drugs and sell their bodies for money, the country will go down the Shi**er anyway.

Both prostitution and drug use can be directly related to violence, and they're simply immoral. Now, you can argue what you want about how your morals and mine dont coencide, but go to another country with laws and a judicial system similar to ours, but without moral influence (ie Thailand) and tell me it doesnt make a difference.
Well, some drugs are allowed (alcohol) and what is the legal postition of the porn industry in the US?

Also how does the Nevada situation on prostitution affect life in practise?

There are more ways of selling your body than prostitution and the West is becoming increasingly obsessed with physical beauty.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
Originally posted by BurlySurly

Both prostitution and drug use can be directly related to violence, and they're simply immoral. Now, you can argue what you want about how your morals and mine dont coencide, but go to another country with laws and a judicial system similar to ours, but without moral influence (ie Thailand) and tell me it doesnt make a difference.
Amsterdam.
 

slein

Monkey
Jul 21, 2002
331
0
CANADA
many morals are retarded. they are based on aged and fallable ideas that have little relevance in today's world.

this notion that there is a direct link between drugs and prostitution with violence is weak at best. a simpler view for violence involves money and sociopaths. you get in the way of someone's dough (drug dealers), then you get violent. you put two people for sex in an unsafe environment, then the sociopath gets the weaker person.

drug use harms only the person doing the drug (if the drug is harmful); and prostitution harms those that don't protect themselves. most violence associated with these facets stems from greed, yet not the deed.

so, legalise and regulate drugs and prostitution. the dudes in control are incapable of stopping these things, so why not try an approach that works?
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by BurlySurly
but go to another country with laws and a judicial system similar to ours, but without moral influence (ie Thailand) and tell me it doesnt make a difference.
I think you'll find that the problems you speak of are much more a result of the extreme wealth gap that is exaggerated by the influx of wealthy businessmen and tourists.

Theft, prostitution and kidnapping are common in pretty much all countries with economic demographics such as that, regardless of the legal system in place. In fact, prostitution and theft are apparent even in American cities that display a major rift between upper and lower classes - New York, Las Vegas, Los Angeles...

Surely you're not trying to imply that the Thai people are without morals?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
To try and reply to all of you at once....mostly slein though,


Legalizing this crap sets a moral standard for our children. If a government they trust says it's ok to do these things, what would they believe?

I cant think of a sane person out there that would want their daughter to be a prostitute or a drug addict. Niether are acceptable, the sad fact of the matter is that you agree with what im saying, but are trying to argue ambiguous broad points to get yours across.

If it keeps you all warm and fuzzy at night to know that you can go buy a disease ridden hooker and some crack, then by all means, you may have a basis for argument. I feel like the majority of you dont feel that way...you're just more concerned about your personal little gains, rather than the good of society. Convince me otherwise....

and Ohio, our resident EOA rep. Of course i didnt mean that Thais dont have morals. Thats not what i said at all, i just said that they dont play a direct role in their government's way of doing things. By this i mean, the "accidents" that happen to tourist fellans in prison and the blind eye turned the "sex trade" that invites visitors from all over the world.

Once before, in a different debate, you stated " i do not value the sanctity of human life" To me, this renders all your arguments benign, because human lives are what matter in the grand scheme of things. If you dont even acknowledge their worth, i dont see how you can think you have a point in debating about them.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by BurlySurly
\
Once before, in a different debate, you stated " i do not value the sanctity of human life" To me, this renders all your arguments benign, because human lives are what matter in the grand scheme of things. If you dont even acknowledge their worth, i dont see how you can think you have a point in debating about them.
Ahem. I said "I don't believe in the sanctity of life." That is very different than saying "I don't value human life."

That also has little or nothing to do with the debate above, but if you want to use it as an excuse to dodge my arguments when they come up, feel free.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by BurlySurly
Legalizing this crap sets a moral standard for our children. If a government they trust says it's ok to do these things, what would they believe.
Not true at all. Our government allows all sorts of activities I disagree with and don't do -- take tobacco for instance. You're going down a slippery slope falacy there.

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I cant think of a sane person out there that would want their daughter to be a prostitute or a drug addict. Niether are acceptable, the sad fact of the matter is that you agree with what im saying, but are trying to argue ambiguous broad points to get yours across.
You're jumping to conclusions. You're assuming that legalizing drugs will lead to abuse and addiction. I like weed and would smoke it on occassion if it was legal. I just don't like it enough to take chances. So, no, i don't agree with all you say. As for my daughter being a prostitute, you're right about that, but that's my problem. I do believe if she wanted to be one, she should have the right. While I've never been with a pro, I'm not against the idea for myself either. Probably cuz i'm too cheap ;)

Originally posted by BurlySurly
If it keeps you all warm and fuzzy at night to know that you can go buy a disease ridden hooker and some crack, then by all means, you may have a basis for argument. I feel like the majority of you dont feel that way...you're just more concerned about your personal little gains, rather than the good of society. Convince me otherwise....
If prostitution was legal and regulated, there'd be *far* less medical issues with the pros out there. And again, you lose your arguement by including "crack"... you're trying to misdirect this discussion.


Since this debate won't end and some won't admit that it's really an emotional and/or moral arguement that has no place in legality, you're forcing me to throw out the alcohol and tobacco argument... if you drink or smoke, then you'll invalidate everything you've said. (not just BurlySurly, but anyone who thinks along his line). Alcohol is more dangerous to society than pot. So, we make alcohol and tobacco illegal?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Just FYI: I niether drink nor smoke, nor visit the occasional brothel. Im also agnostic, and my morals arent religiously driven at all. It just seems to make sense for me, so i'll stand by what i've said.

I also like tacos.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by BurlySurly
Just FYI: I niether drink nor smoke, nor visit the occasional brothel. Im also agnostic, and my morals arent religiously driven at all. It just seems to make sense for me, so i'll stand by what i've said.
I totally respect that!

agnostic, eh?


What do you get when you cross an insomniac with a dyslexic with an agnostic?


One who stays up all night wondering if there is a dog. :D
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by BurlySurly
Im also agnostic
since you started it...

as an agnostic, how can you claim to believe that ANYTHING is sacred, when, by definition, that means it is worthy of religious veneration?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Originally posted by ohio
since you started it...

as an agnostic, how can you claim to believe that ANYTHING is sacred, when, by definition, that means it is worthy of religious veneration?
If this is where you want this argument to go Ohio? I'll be happy to humor you. Just as long as you let me know if i offend anyone along the way.

While there isnt a specific deity i care to worship...if there is one at all, I still feel that humans are more than just animals, that there is more to life than simple science. Human life, i believe, is important above all other things. I suppose, in a roundabout way they truly are sacred, even if only to those around them. Take my stretched meaning of the word sacred for what its worth.

Ohio, if you dont believe human life is sacred...what do you believe?
What's the point in believing?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Originally posted by PsychO!1
I don't belive anyone would want there daughter to be a stripper or alcoholic either. Legality does not make it moraly acceptable.
I believe that government figures should stand as role models for our children. If those government officials have morally made the decision for it to be legally acceptable, they have made the statement that its also morally acceptable.

I agree, parents should have the most influence on their children, but these days, one can never be sure if that influence is good or bad. At least let young people have some guidance as to what's right and wrong.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by BurlySurly
I believe that government figures should stand as role models for our children. If those government officials have morally made the decision for it to be legally acceptable, they have made the statement that its also morally acceptable.

I agree, parents should have the most influence on their children, but these days, one can never be sure if that influence is good or bad. At least let young people have some guidance as to what's right and wrong.
Wow, you have a lot of faith in our politicians to let them make laws based on their morals. Or do you want them to base it on your morals?

How do you feel about oral sex? Did you know it's illegal in many states?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Originally posted by LordOpie
Wow, you have a lot of faith in our politicians to let them make laws based on their morals. Or do you want them to base it on your morals?

How do you feel about oral sex? Did you know it's illegal in many states?

We elect politicians for the most part, becuase we feel they share our views and will make the correct decisions when the time comes around for them to act. While they may not always live up to a great standard, they at least try to display proper dignity and class and morality.

When a significant part of a voting populous agrees on a candidate, i think they, for the most part, have found consensus on the moral level of that candidate.

Bill Clinton, for example, did something really stupid. Im not even sure if he really broke a law, but he tarnished his entire life by breaking a moral rule. This is infinitely worse than say....pardoning easily guilty criminals. What do people remember bill for???? The cigar thing. Such is the state of the world.

Oral Sex?

I think this is probably a case where the judicial system is lagging behind the ever present changing moral pace of society. Nothing more or less. I doubt this is enforced....except in the military..where its kind of an ongoing joke.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by BurlySurly

Ohio, if you dont believe human life is sacred...what do you believe?
What's the point in believing?
You're still equating "sacred" with "valuable."

It's all been explained before, once you figure out the semantics...
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,649
24
SF, CA
Originally posted by Damn True
relativism is a wonderful thing:rolleyes:
I'm not a relativist, by any stretch. I just measure things to a different scale than you.

You might call it objectivism, but I dont want to be associated with a Ayn Rand's simplistic worldview.