[speedybeaver1]

I think it is VERY important to approach WIM in a positive and respectful way as well. We must act like adults to be successful in this endeavor.

Also, keep in mind, like Kevin said, that WIM has been unable to alter courses and land new venues due to USFS rules and the need for VERY expensive Environmental Impact Statements in order to build trails even at existing ski resorts. Those types of studies can cost up to a million dollars depending on the proposal and level of public involvement (and believe me there are many folks out there who don't want trails for bikes).

Lastly, I heard rumors that RNR is looking at using Loop Loop Ski Area near Twisp/Winthrop as an alternative to Spokane, when Spokane gets closed due to a new development in that area. I have not been to Loop Loop, but they do have an old Quad from Crystal and I have riden xc trails just northwest of there and the terrian will likely be good.

So keep the ideas flowing, but keep an open mind about WHY these things are difficult to accomplish. The best bet is likely going to be private land, where the federal government and EISs won't be necessary, or working closely with a place like Crystal, where trails already exist and a relationship existed in the past. But lets leave the negotiating up to RNR and give them out support in other ways for now. I agree with Kevin, people need to commit to trail building for REAL and others can possibly help RNR behind the scenes where they have expertise or knowledge (know land owners, contract/lease issues, etc). Lets form some work groups for the fall, before it snows as Keving suggested, then the trails will be far better off next summer.

Anyhoot, good luck. I'll email you.

 

[oly]

I guess one thing that meant to convey in my original comment was that i'd like to be able to go ride a resort without having to be there racing. Thats why i suggested sending a place like Crystal a list of people willing to support a summer operation regardless of R&R's involvment. Maybe if Crystal was open for weekends someone else would be willing to step in and run a race promotion. Leave WIM to hold their events at their standard places wondering why no one shows to DH anymore......

In reality this debate goes deeper than just improving WIM. Sure, at the current wim venues things can be improved/changed to make thing challenging and smoother running.... But the mention of Ski resorts brings up another dynamic that may or may not ever change.... That ultimatley comes down to money crunchers doing the math. Maybe some feedback from the potential user base would help to open their eyes......

 

[ioscope]

I wanna race beginner DH.
post race times/links

 

[NateH]

I wanna race beginner DH.
post race times/links

This thread is not about any particular race.

 

[mplutodh1]

Here we go again...

Alright I am going to explain something to you Nate... getting a place to hold a race is NOT anywhere near as easy at it sounds. I found out first hand this year. We went through 3 locations before we FINALLY found a place to host an event yet we were too late to make it happen this year with the DNR closing down the land due to fire hazard. So before you go blowing steam up the panties of everyone at Round and Round you might actually do a little research of your own on how difficult it is to host a race and to get courses that you might think are "totally sick my bre!" (god I hate talking like that even when making a point) The DNR and most land owners aren't going to let you build whatever you want, however you want to build it. For DNR, if a stream or stream bed is of a certain size a bridge must be built. If it is beyond that size a study has to be done to determine what needs to be done and the ways to approach it, if even possible, usually its just delaying the inevitable. Most private land owners are scared ****less with this generations habit of everyone wanting to sue for burning themselves with their own damn coffee. Most arent even willing to give you a chance to prove to them that they wont be liable, others even after showing them this aren't too sure about it, and rightfully so.

In other words, do your homework before you go pissing people off. Round and Round does a great job of hosting events, and like any business they do have areas in which they can improve, if you want something to be improved approach them politely intsead of throwing a petition in their face. Did you fill out the WIM survey? Did you tell your friends to? Are you willing to volunteer to work with land owners to find locations?

 

[mplutodh1]

Does anyone else feel that beacon is fun but not a good direction for DH racing?

Yup, I enjoy the course, but at the same time I don't enjoy the "race" itself. Where I would like to see DH racing going is more like Schweitzer but a little shorter obviously. Or heck even Wenatchee I enjoy. The race is won by a pedal stroke here, a bobble there. Not who wants to hit something and who wants to make it to the bottom so they can drive home... Beacon is not a race course, beacon is a freeride area. A race course should flow, beacon doesnt flow IMO, its drop.... pedal... drop/jump... pedal.... drop...pedal. A race course should challenge you almost the whole time, drops are fun and nice, so are jumps but they arent everything. Chatter bumps, rock gardens, off camber corners, thats where racing should be going I think. Show who can handle a bike, not who has the balls.

 

[NateH]

Ok I think I need to lay a few things down before I go insane:

1.) I have known Wendy, Gino, and the Whole round and round crew for over 5 years and am on great terms with all of them (I have stayed at the rn'r condo at schweitzer for 2 years in a row and was given the WIM junior award.) So anyone who thinks that I don't care about them can just shove off.

2.) Our goal is in no form to present WIM with a boycot. Someone on here said boycot and everyone has seized that our goal is by hostile means. What we are asking of your guys and not getting much in the way of cooperation is a very simple task. We simply want to know if you like the courses now or if you don't. If you dont we ask you to send an email to me so that we can send them an email saying what we want to do and who agrees. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO THREATEN THEM!!!!!!!!!!!! We simply are trying to get some positive change towards what we hear in the shuttle trucks, on our weekly rides, and from all the poeple on line. If we don't see a change we aren't coming to boycot we are simply going to go to races we like (Spokane, Schwietzer, BC Cups) We are doing this cause we like the WIM series and would rather stay local for our races.

3.) Willingness to help is not an issue. We already have about 10 people totaly lined up who are willing to come and help dig, scout, talk to land owners, etc...

The whole point of this thing was simply to get a group of people together that agree that they'd like to see a change so that we can civily present WIM with a unified and cohesive set of change that we'd like to see. I am probably going to help on the "Scouting party to the west side" that Erik mentioned in his letter (which is being done by otis the intern) So please stop bashing on me, I am trying to help. Anymore responses that don't read what I keep saying are going to be met with extreme scorn. Not cause I'm mean but because I have a job and a life to and can't keep spending 4 hours a day writing back explaining what I have already said half a dozen time.
Good night to you all and thanks for your input.

 

[trailhacker]

..."totally sick my bre!" (god I hate talking like that even when making a point)...

I refuse to listen to KISW ever again until they get rid of the retard that is always talking like that!!!

 

[clognot]

Sigh....This thread is not about the difficulties that might arise when looking to create a new DH course. Please read the original threads, and you might find a couple of replies that steer us back to the original thread topic such as, "I don't see this as a productive addition to our goal". RnR can only benefit from a petition presented in kind and with sincerity. The customers have a right to speak, and that's all this thread is trying to accomplish.

Perhaps the word 'survey' is better than 'petition', but I would consider this thread to me more of a survey in support of an idea..., that is all it is at this time.


cb

 

[bibs]

I refuse to listen to KISW ever again until they get rid of the retard that is always talking like that!!!

yea, agreed! I met that guy at Hooters once, the "ricker" or some ****! I almost kicked his ass..hes a fag!

 

[mplutodh1]

yea, agreed! I met that guy at Hooters once, the "ricker" or some ****! I almost kicked his ass..hes a fag!

YUP! its the station of choice in the shop but as soon as that tool gets on the air we all run for the tuner

 

[NateH]

Please stop talking about radio stations. I'd like to keep this on topic.

 

[trailhacker]

Please stop talking about radio stations. I'd like to keep this on topic.

HAHAHAHA!!!!! Good luck!!!! How bout those Sea-chickens this year?

 

[bibs]

HAHAHAHA!!!!! Good luck!!!! How bout those Sea-chickens this year?

yea, good the ricker needs to get killed in the face@! I stay away from that station just cuase of him, what a tool!

Tell Tad I have that spering for him...

Hey do you any of you guys like GI Joe?..I found some cool websites!

 

[buildyourown]

yea, good the ricker needs to get killed in the face@! I stay away from that station just cuase of him, what a tool!

Tell Tad I have that spering for him...

Hey do you any of you guys like GI Joe?..I found some cool websites!

LOL, focus bibs, focus.
I think you have ADD. Try and keep the posts congnisant.

 

[NateH]

Thanks for the seriousness guys.

 

[bibs]

Im totally serious, I hate the ricker...hes a fag! AND tell Tad I have the Boxxer spring for him!....whats not serious about that!???

 

[Certified Drunk]

 

[oly]

Thanks for the seriousness guys.

Nate, this is always expected on a 4+ page thread..... it always gets off topic... why? i dont know.... just the way the monkey works.....

 

[Borregokid]

You guys got your worked cut out for you. This week I got my invitation to the "18th Annual Methow Valley Fall Bike Festival-Fun For the Whol Family!" They list three different races-no down hill races. So there is another race that is going away.

 

[mplutodh1]

You guys got your worked cut out for you. This week I got my invitation to the "18th Annual Methow Valley Fall Bike Festival-Fun For the Whol Family!" They list three different races-no down hill races. So there is another race that is going away.

Old news, they didnt draw a very big crowd in the past, so instead of focusing on the DH they added cyclocross and road events.

 

[NateH]

I was realy disappointed by the mtn. bike festival. I think that that race is just an awesome way to end the season.

 

[NateH]

From: Tad Evans

Hey guys Monday is the day we are sending our ideas into WIM. I think WIM is right on target with their lame courses. Although we have some whiners, 61 to be exact, 5 who are actualy concerned enough to email us directly. The majority, 932 to this point, have absolutly nothing to say. So it would seem that many people are happy with the races just the way they are. Without help from the majority, which in this case is a simple email to Nate, I don't beleive we will get anything done. Still Nate and I plan to push ahead hope you guys like the drives to B.C.

 

[Chuckwagon]

I buy my apples from the local fruit stand; have been for years. two (2) one pound bags per week. The guy who runs the stand always manages to strike up great conversations with me when I shop, and over the years, one of those friend/customer situations has developed.

Anyways, the cost of running an orchard has continued to rise, and as a result, quality has dropped. Now, his apples are usually bruised, sometimes plain old rotten, and every once in a while, they are full of worms!

Despite the serious drop in quality, I have continued to do buisness with the fruit stand since he is sort of a friend. In fact, I haven't even mentioned my extreme dislike for the taste of worms inside apples; after all- I would not want to offend him.

Apples:WIM races connect the dots...

 

[Jewels]

Just be glad you guys have a race series at all. True, WIM doesn't do the best job with DH but you must admit that Spokane is one of the funnest courses. I'd rather just ride there on an off weekend anyway. Going to a WIM race consists of spending waaaay too much money to do 4 runs. I could do more riding for absolutely nothing and be a 50% better rider for it. But if you wanna stand around with all the gear bumpin shoulders all weekend eyeing eachothers sh!t and then complain about it afterwards then thats your fault. If you don't like whats on tv then turn it off. It's simple....the only exception to Washington racing is Kevin Ryan series. That dude did it right.

Racing in Washington = too much talk, not enough ROCK!

Quit yer bitchin and go race in Canada

 

[oly]

Quit yer bitchin and go race in Canada

Funny you say that cuz we are this weekend!!!!!!

 

[Snacks]

If you don't like whats on tv then turn it off. It's simple....the only exception to Washington racing is Kevin Ryan series. That dude did it right.

Hahaha! Thanks Jewels

 

[oly]

Nate, i just sent you an e-mail. Now you have 6.......

 

[NateH]

Thanks for the email damon, everyone helps. We agree that Kevin put on some great races but he is no longer putting them on so any talk of how badass they WERE just seems wasted. If you (Snacks, Jewels, Trailhacker, etc...) Have any information about a KR series for next year I'd love to hear it cause we can just wrap this thing up now. Jewels, I guess you probably don't like racing much, and it seems like you think the WIM series doesn't take quite the right approach to things either, so my question is, why are you arguing with us, go be an internet tough guy somewhere else.

 

[Jewels]

What is WIM racing? It should be fun, challenging, and rewarding, right? I have a hard time finding any of those aspects in driving 3-4 hours to ride over picnic table, and for finals no less. But I digress...WIM does a great job at providing the best they can and are a good group of people. If I don't like somthing I just go and do somthing else. If you want to do ton of riding while racing, do some XC country...if you wanna stand in line and fight to get on a truck to do 3-4 practice runs, race DH. The only problem with WIM dh is the lack of chair lift access. If you guys can pool your $$(ha) and start building lifts than I say good luck...in the meantime i'll be out riding my bike

 

[66]

so Nate, did you guys ever approach RnR? what did they say?

 

[NateH]

In the works man. I have a letter drafted and ready but due to the race over the weekend I've been super busy. It will definatly be off tomarrow (tuesday) and I will tell you guy whats up as soon as I hear.

 

[NateH]

Dear Round and Round,

In behest of concerned racers from around the Northwest Region, Myself, Nathan Hoch, and my friend John Evans would like to bring to your attention some things that we see as highly troubling and offer assistance to remedy theses problems. We appreciate the fact that we are lucky enough to have a local race series however; in respect to our courses, we are lagging behind the rest of the world by what seems like ten years. In support of your series and why we want to help, you guys defiantly care about the riders and do an awesome job organizing races, but you are working with courses that don’t truly allow your talents to shine. As testament to how our courses are compared to the rest of the country and world look at the results of our local racers at the Schweitzer Mountain Nationals, WIM racers are not adept at riding full Nationals level courses because they don’t get to ride them. Also as a result of the low level courses many riders have started to use their money to go to Whistler, where the same funds can pay for lodging and buy a lift ticket that allows them to ride some of the most challenging trails in the world. As part of the riding community we hear from everyone, and what we have learned is that many people instead of trying to change things or even voice their opinions have opted to simply not race WIM series events. We don’t want to see this.
Our intention is to bring the challenge, fun, prestige, and most importantly the racers back to WIM series races. What we have done is comb all the riders we could get in contact with and come up with some good preliminary ideas to help you guys and suggest what racers would like to see in their 2005 WIM series races. After all what fun is racing without the challenge that large fields of riders, and more technical courses provide?
So after much thought these are the suggestions that we have heard and also what we will do to help you attain the level of racing that the racers desire.

I. Course Locations

Here is a Rating of last year’s courses by the riders: (Ratings are in 1-10, 1 being I would never return to this course, 10 Being sign me up for next year!)

Spokane (Both courses): 7- Definitely much loved courses and deservedly so, only lacking in length and some shuttling difficulty. The only courses that we would keep unchanged. Should be a benchmark for other courses, besides length. Beginners have commented that some of the easy-outs could use some work to make them more rideable.

Winthrop: 5- A course with much potential despite some complaints. With some additions this course could be one of the best (see: Section III: Course Work)

Chelan: 5- Again, a course that is fun but in need of much improvement and repair. (See: Section III: Course Work)

Wenatchee: 2- Far substandard but with land access issues and lack of existing trails to improve bringing this course up to standards is out of reach. Definitely a course that 50% of racers will not be returning to.

Schweitzer: 9- A vast improvement and an all around challenging course. With all the makings of a great course (chairlift, length, difficulty) Schweitzer was defiantly the best WIM event of the season. The only thing preventing this course from being a 10 is drive length and the shear exhaustion of a weekend of racing there.

II. Suggestions on Future Series locations.

The number one suggestion by racers and also the number one question has to do with the ski areas. With more than a dozen areas and people clamoring to ride lifts, why are there no races at the ski areas in our state?

A favorite that is conspicuously missing is Port Angeles. One of the best courses ever raced in Washington and with the addition of a Pro/Expert line one of THE places to race in Washington. P.A. is closer to many racers than Spokane or Wenatchee and has landowners who are amiable to riding. There was an organized ride and a race this season and both were said by many to be the best events of there kind this year. This was a course sadly missed as a WIM series event. Perhaps a place for future courses as well.

With the partnering of Round and Round and the promoters of the Oregon races for the Northwest Cup what is preventing a Mt. Hood WIM race. This would be an awesome addition that is equidistant from both sides of the state.

Just a suggestion, is a possible partnership with the promoters of the BC cup races and Cycling BC for future races. After talking with the head of the BC cup race series there is a definite enthusiasm for future races in Washington (Contact Gary Jackson of Cycling BC.) This would open such venues as Hemlock ski resort, a ski area open to bikes and within a 3-hour drive of Seattle.

West side areas are something that a large amount of riders would like to see. Surprisingly this sentiment is shared by both east and westsiders. Many of my friends from Spokane and Coeur d’ lane have expressed that the riding scene on the west side of Washington has far outpaced what is happening near their homes.


III. Course Work

To reach the goals that we are trying to set we have enlisted a number of experienced trail builders who are willing to donate there time to the cause of improving courses. What we would like to see is an across the table change for 05 season followed by an organized fall course work weekend, for one course each year into the future. This way we can ensure that as the face of mountain biking changes so too does our race series. The essential part here is that course work must be done in the fall when it has the chance to get rained and snowed on which will in turn make our work semi-permanent instead of simply making new piles of dust.









IV. An Imaginary Schedule for 2005

Race 1: Spokane- Either Course
Race 2: Winthrop- Bigger, Better, Faster, Stronger!!!
Race 3: Chelan- Now with even more ridiculousness!
Race 4: Port Angeles- an old classic returns.
Race 5: *New* west side venue
Race 6: *New* west side venue and Series Final

We didn’t include Schweitzer as a series race due to both logistics and organization. Have a National event as part of a series creates point’s issues as well as simply being a lot of extra work.

V. Organizational Changes

At Nationals and many other races the organizers have chosen to run Pro and Semi-pro racers last, with an ascending order to the race. In other words, beginners come down the course when it is freshest and are done first. Then Sports, then Experts, followed by Semi-Pro/ Pro riders. This allows the beginners the best course while adding challenge to the Pro event. Also this allows new racers who might not otherwise have a chance to watch the more experienced riders come down the course.

With a race series of six or less races dropping two events is not a logical way to run a series. This takes away the whole idea of a series. In Nationals the champion often has a 22nd place finish in his year but having good finishes otherwise is what makes him a rounded rider. Make the riders either commit to the whole series or just come out for a day of racing. Dropping one race allows riders to compensate for injury, family trouble or something as simple as a crash. Two or more simply promotes riders to be less consistent and rounded.

Riders we have talked to have voiced that 10-15$ more per race would not be a bad thing if our courses and shuttling were improved. Hopefully this will result in better venues and better shuttling.


We appreciate all the work that goes into our WIM series races but the bottom line is that racers are customers and many have begun to decide to take their business elsewhere. This is the last thing that we as racers want to see. Hopefully with a partnership between the racers and the organizers we can all come out happy and ahead.

Sincerely,
Nathan Hoch
John (Tad) Evans
And Concerned Racers Everywhere

 

[mplutodh1]

Well glad to see you voiced your opinions instead of pissing and moaning much more on a discussion board. I think you are going the right direction on a few things but others I think the wrong. Unfortunately I might stand alone on this one but I don't particularly like the Spokane courses. When I started racing several years ago my favorite courses were Mt. Spokane, Schweitzer, and Winthrop. In recent years, Mt Spokane hasn't been included but Wenatchee I enjoyed.

My reasonings - Spokane isn't a race course, Beacon is a playground, good place to go ride for fun, enjoy a day of pushing up a hill and hitting the "big shiat" or whatever the Jr. Experts or big balled riders want to call it. Ever listened to people complain about the courses, particularly the younger up and comers in the sport. The things I usually hear from the individuals who aren't "huckers" are that they just didn't have the balls to do a drop/jump or whatever at Beacon. Listen to the same thing about Schweitzer, they didn't complain about having balls, they complained about not being in shape, not being able to hold onto a bike for that long and stay in control at speed. Racing in my mind is combining a bit of everything, endurance, skills, practice and a small bit of balls thrown in there. I see courses like Wenatchee, Winthrop and Schweitzer as good places for EVERYONE to step it up, the "huckers" or so called experienced riders complain about these courses because they can't show off how big their balls are, and the times are much closer, one bobble in a corner could mean the race for the upper ranks. Well why not have everyone strive to be a much better rider and learn how to ride controlled at speed through difficult terrain rather than teach them how to huck a drop or jump. I was just looking back at the World Cup held at Snoqualmie and the terrain used for that course. If many of you remember there weren't particularly many drops or jumps, just steep ass rooty rocky terrain, sharp corners and a variation of speeds. To me that course showed who had skill not balls. So again, I know a lot of downhillers, even many who are part of my team favor the big huck/jump courses, but my argument remains that racing should show skills not balls.

As for your comment about paying more to race, $10-15 more for better courses? Dang they better be TOP notch fun courses with lift access to get people to pay that kind of money. To drive all the way to Beacon paying for the gas, hotel, food, and then a spendy race entry I better get some serious fun and a lot of runs out of my weekend.

As for courses, I know many have said this before but I am going to say it again. It's great for everyone to say the courses need to change, I agree they need improvement but I also admit I don't have the time nor funds to drive to Spokane to lend a hand for a day to help improve the courses. Until more people actually do step up not much that is going to change. R&R doesn't have a staff to build courses, volunteers do this, and a lot of that is all just talk. Part of why we still have the courses we have had for a few years in some locations.

 

[NateH]

I'm not going to argue, but I disagree about what you are saying and if you read your own statement you echo our sentiments exactly. As you said, "Racing is about controling your bike at speed over rough terrain" What about Wenatchee classifies as rough terrain. I'm not going to respond to any more talk about this though because I am going to go practice riding my bike at speed over rough terrain for the national championships. Where I hope to huck myself to a good result.

Cheers

 

[WARider]

Can't we all just get along

Actually, it would be great if we could all get some sort of ballet together to get signatures and supporters for at least one resort in the state of Washington to open up chair access all summer long. Those locals who get to ride places like Whistler(as we all know), Platekill(NY), Snowshoe(WV), several locations in CO, several in CA, improve on a daily basis because of the 10-15 runs they get in a day. Most of us are stuck with one good run because it takes us all day to get to the top of something worth hiking...like my sig says . I'm coming in on the tail end of this and I'm fairly new to WA (2.5 years) but where I was last at was great for skills improvement as Tahoe runs several resort lifts a year. I think you locals of the PNW have a step up on the rest for skills in the North Shore arena and of course big hit in sketchy situations but when it comes to DH runs, we're lacking because of our lack lift access. When I first moved here I rode up at snoqualmie, and even though it's a rather weak spot to ride my board in the winter, it was pretty killer for DH riding even as short of a run as it was. So why doesn't Washington have chairlift access when just about every western state does?

 

[oly]

Mt Hood Ski Bowl has been running bikes on chairs for years. Anyone here ever go? They dont have a ton of trails, but its a place with some potential. We just raced there yesterday and it was a blast! Terrain was very challenging. They have big plans for that series too next season.

I for one will be attending more of those races next season........

also,
the letter to wim looks good. Most the points i agree with. I dont think though i'd pay 10-15 bucks more unless the races were held at a ski resort.... they can afford another truck with the current load of $$ they take in.... but i'd be willing to spend some more to help them cover insurance and stuff for running chairs.... maybe at the summit???

thanks,
damon

 

[WARider]

Mt Hood Ski Bowl has been running bikes on chairs for years. Anyone here ever go? They dont have a ton of trails, but its a place with some potential.

Oly,

What's the drive time to get to the parking lot from Seattle?

 

[NateH]

We agree that we wont pay 10-15 extra for spokane and like courses, but what about cool new places that have prices to access the land? If i'm going to a race I'd like to race somehting sweet but i agree that the price does get crazy. I already pay 10 more than the average so It doesn't seem too bad.

 

[oly]

Oly,

What's the drive time to get to the parking lot from Seattle?

Its just under 3 hrs from Olympia. Easy drive. I-5 S to I-205 to I-84to the Mt hood exit in gresham (forget the #), then on to HWY26 up to Government camp..

Its a pretty fun place. 2 chairs to get to the top. Old school chairs that are slow, unlike the nice quads of whistler. Its pretty cheap too. THeres a few DH trails and some blue mellower trails. Not sure how much longer they will be operating.....

D