about the city of sj being sued by a mtn biker who got hurt there...whats your take ?
http://www.msdhw.com/forum/showthread.php?p=30480#post30480
http://www.msdhw.com/forum/showthread.php?p=30480#post30480
stuff about Calabazas park
- Thread starter snutty
- Start date
Damn, you beat me to it. I really don't know what to say... I completely understand that Grande's parents have bills to pay, yet I doubt Grande would agree to this... Jeez, this is awful.
yea...im pretty dissipointed that it had to come too this..
Your inability to take care of yourself, financially or in terms of knowing inherent risks in the sport in which you participate should never EVER justify blaming or expecting financial compensation from those who provide you with the resources to enjoy your sport. "Grande's" parents are irresponsible for expecting such from a public agency who has gone out of their way to keep that place accessible. If Grande engages in an activity in which they dissaprove, it is their responsibility to act to prevent that participation, not the city of San Jose. It's not like the Parks and Rec department was kicking him in the nuts, making him ride calabassas. They did nothing more than allow what he and so many other people practically begged to be left in place. To be so short sighted as to actually sue over this is assinine. I broke several bones and recieved numerous serious injuries skateboarding on both private and public propery when I was in high and junior high school. Not once did litigation ever come up.snutty said:
I don't want to write letters to public agencies. I want to write letters to this kid's parents. If you've got problems with bills, raffles, fundraisers from fellow riders......anything like this should come far before suing someone for your own misfortune when all that was ever provided was a service to your kid.
good call on it...i agree on you on that.....i just wanted to throw that other part out seeing what it be like in their shoeskidwoo said:
Suck it up crybaby. Unless you ride around wrapped in a cushion of toilet paper to soak up all your tears, injuries are a part of the sport you participate in. If every noodnik with a bump and a scrape filed a case where would skaters, snowboarders, BMX'rs, rollerbladers, hikers, ballers at pickup games, beach volleyball players, tennis players, roller hockey players, trail runners, rock climbers, and anyone else that's active in sports go to do what they love. NOWHERE. Be a man and be responsible for your own actions. Don't delude yourself into thinking that you're gonna get other people to be accountable for something you did to your self. You and your parents can get off your litigious high horse and go find something safer for you to do like watching the grass grow.
This happens all too often in the U.S. Parents constantly blame everyone else for their kids problems. I feel sorry for Grande, he was injured doing something that we all love, and anyone of us could have the same thing happen. His parents need to realize its their son's fault he was injured. This in no way shape or form was the fault of The Parks and Rec. Department.
I find it ironic how we are constantly bombarded by News articles in papers, and on TV about how Americas Youth is Overweight, and Lazy. Then the same people are quick to sue anytime one of these kids injures himself being active. These same people doing the suing are responsible for the problems with the Youth of today. Parants need to allow their kids to go out and take risks. Taking risks and being active can teach many life long lessons to both kids and adults.
Recently a friend of mine was telling me about how the soccer league his daughter plays in does not keep score because they don't want the losing team to feel like losers. I find it to be so typical of our society today. We are so concerned with being "PC" that we are training our youth not to understand how to deal with the hardships that come with life in general.
I guess to sum this post up, I am very dissappointed that Grande, and his family have made a choice to sue the Parks and Rec. Department for an accident that was Grandes fault. Financial struggle or not, I feel his parents are teaching their son that its ok to blame others, or to use others when times get tough. It will also send the wrong messege to the younger generation of riders who use this park. They will see that it is ok to sue somebody even if they were not at fault. Although I am dissappointed I have to say that it is a pretty typical move. I'm sure if they took the time and researched they could find an alternative route to raise the money.
I find it ironic how we are constantly bombarded by News articles in papers, and on TV about how Americas Youth is Overweight, and Lazy. Then the same people are quick to sue anytime one of these kids injures himself being active. These same people doing the suing are responsible for the problems with the Youth of today. Parants need to allow their kids to go out and take risks. Taking risks and being active can teach many life long lessons to both kids and adults.
Recently a friend of mine was telling me about how the soccer league his daughter plays in does not keep score because they don't want the losing team to feel like losers. I find it to be so typical of our society today. We are so concerned with being "PC" that we are training our youth not to understand how to deal with the hardships that come with life in general.
I guess to sum this post up, I am very dissappointed that Grande, and his family have made a choice to sue the Parks and Rec. Department for an accident that was Grandes fault. Financial struggle or not, I feel his parents are teaching their son that its ok to blame others, or to use others when times get tough. It will also send the wrong messege to the younger generation of riders who use this park. They will see that it is ok to sue somebody even if they were not at fault. Although I am dissappointed I have to say that it is a pretty typical move. I'm sure if they took the time and researched they could find an alternative route to raise the money.
Its being done. http://www.msdhw.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=39kidwoo said:
are the parents sueing or is it an insurance company or somethign like that?
It's not the cities fault, its good the mtb communities helping, the jumps mean a lot to a lot of people
While rock climbing on private land 10 years ago I fell to the ground and fractured my back and my sternum. Did I go out and sue the landowner for my stupidity and negligence? Years later some kid got hurt at the same climbing area, his parents' sued the landowner, and now it's closed down.
It sounds like this Grande family is going to screw everyone out of one of the best djing area in the BA. Why can't he sack up and take responsibility for his own mistake? It sucks he's hurt, but trying to sue his fellow citizens to pay for his error is selfish and short sighted. Even if he loses his case San Jose may decide to shut the park out of fear of future litigation.
This kind of crap is everything that's wrong with America.
It sounds like this Grande family is going to screw everyone out of one of the best djing area in the BA. Why can't he sack up and take responsibility for his own mistake? It sucks he's hurt, but trying to sue his fellow citizens to pay for his error is selfish and short sighted. Even if he loses his case San Jose may decide to shut the park out of fear of future litigation.
This kind of crap is everything that's wrong with America.
Do you know how much of what was suggested in that thread is or has been done?The Kadvang said:
Are his parents at the point where they feel like they really have exhausted their resources to the point where suing someone is the only thing that's going to keep them from living in a cardboard box? How much money are we talking here? I mean bills, not what their claiming in a legal suit.
I don't even live there but would be willing to participate in fundraising efforts if it might help his parents back down.
being an avid fan and putting in shovel time on these jumps for several years now. i hope this kids family gets hit by a bus......
No!! Then his grandparents will sue the department of transportation and the San Jose regional transit system and then the roads will be closed and I'll never be able to drive there!!!WestCoastHucker said:
Wait, then I can sue his grandparents for emotional distress and get them to come build a calabassas replica at my house........
Good point. GO BUS!!!!
I feel bad for the guy and all, and with medical prices the way they are I'm sure that his parents are pretty strapped right now. But this is 180 degrees from a fix. I really hope someone can put a plan together to stop this. Even from a non riders perspective, I think closing calabazas would be just one more nail in the communities coffin. I hope before any other parents or non-riders jump on the closure bandwagon (i.e. http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=54744), they stop and realize that the streets (especially in a town like San Jo ) have alot of after school "activities" that are BY FAR more dangerous than dirt jumping. Right now kids are going to the dirt jumps, take those away and I can guarantee that other "activities" will make sure to come to them.
I really am not the one to talk to about this, as I am very much on the fringes. But as of now, the raffle/assorted fundraisers has been called off by the organizers because of the pending suit.kidwoo said:
So those willing to help have quit because his parents want more. Great. If you know this kid's address or phone number I really would like to write a very well presented letter to his folks, mostly about how people are willing to help them.....The Kadvang said:
I'm not some raving lunatic kid, but I really would like to convey to them some alternatives to what they are doing. If you've got any info on how to contact them, I really would appreciate a PM. Thanks.
Just for the record, it's not Grande who's sueing the city. Alex is 16 years old. He's half paralyzed. It's his father who is doing so.
PM sent.kidwoo said:
Please check this link guys.
http://www.msdhw.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30813&postcount=43
In it, is Grande's explanation and clarification. He has also given out his father's contact information. Maybe we can convince the man to rethink this lawsuit.
http://www.msdhw.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30813&postcount=43
In it, is Grande's explanation and clarification. He has also given out his father's contact information. Maybe we can convince the man to rethink this lawsuit.
I put alot of hours into Calabazas when I was in the area both riding and digging...although it would be sad to see it go...I knew it would happen sooner or later...sucks though 'cause that's where my true bike riding began...D
Calabazas is officially closed for now 
it got fenced off yesterday.
its not for sure that they bulldoze it, but the chance is still there and to voice our opinion at a meeting on November 1st at Lybrook High. I hope that a lot of you can show up. The meeting is from 7 pm to 9 pm.
The address is 1280 Johnson Avenue, San Jose, CA 95129.
They are located at the corner of Rainbow Ave. and Johnson Ave.
official thread here on MSDHW
http://www.msdhw.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3791
it got fenced off yesterday.its not for sure that they bulldoze it, but the chance is still there and to voice our opinion at a meeting on November 1st at Lybrook High. I hope that a lot of you can show up. The meeting is from 7 pm to 9 pm.
The address is 1280 Johnson Avenue, San Jose, CA 95129.
They are located at the corner of Rainbow Ave. and Johnson Ave.
official thread here on MSDHW
http://www.msdhw.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3791
The kid sounds like a stand-up little dude.
His sperm-donor (I use the term because he's not acting like enough of a role model to be called a father) deserves a :nuts:
His sperm-donor (I use the term because he's not acting like enough of a role model to be called a father) deserves a :nuts:
Hey guys,
Let me toss in another perspective here. I pretty much agree with what you all have been writing about personal responsibility.
But we also don't know all the details. This kid is possibly in a wheel chair for life, and his lifetime medical costs may be ruinous to his entire family. A lot of insurance plans have caps on how much they'll pay out. Do you really expect his parent(s) to just say "Oh well."?
If you haven't read it already, pick up Lance Armstrong's book and read the part about how he got insurance coverage and treatment after he got cancer. It was only due to some major arm twisting by one of his sponsors (Oakley, I think.) Without that, he'd be a dead man.
Too bad there isn't some better system for catastrophes like this than to sue. Or maybe there is, but that's a topic for the politics forum...
Let me toss in another perspective here. I pretty much agree with what you all have been writing about personal responsibility.
But we also don't know all the details. This kid is possibly in a wheel chair for life, and his lifetime medical costs may be ruinous to his entire family. A lot of insurance plans have caps on how much they'll pay out. Do you really expect his parent(s) to just say "Oh well."?
If you haven't read it already, pick up Lance Armstrong's book and read the part about how he got insurance coverage and treatment after he got cancer. It was only due to some major arm twisting by one of his sponsors (Oakley, I think.) Without that, he'd be a dead man.
Too bad there isn't some better system for catastrophes like this than to sue. Or maybe there is, but that's a topic for the politics forum...
I hear what you are saying, and feel for the family.
However, should you and I as taxpayers in this county he held liable?
However, should you and I as taxpayers in this county he held liable?
Dang, the case hasn't even gone to court and Cali is already closed. That's where I "learned" to dirt jump. How depressing.mealsonwheels said:
Harry, where does the offloading of individual responsibility stop? If a drunk driver paralyzes himself in a car crash or a burglar breaks his neck jumping out of an apartment he robbed am i also responsible for his medical bills? Where do we draw the line on taking accountability for your actions?
What would his folks do had Grande been out road riding and crashed on Hwy-9 or something?
Are you going to sue the state because the road was wet?
Are you going to sue the state because the road was wet?
Edit: I started writing this before the above post about crashing on the road, but that post went up 1st. HC
.........................
Good questions, guys, and I don't know that I have the answers. But let me toss out some thoughts and other questions. I think it's important we think about these things for the sport and for the larger community.
I think you'll see if you look at my first post again that I'm not suggesting we "offload responsibility". What I said was "Too bad there isn't some better system for catastrophes like this than to sue." I don't have much sympathy for the "victim" in either of the scenarios Squarewheels suggested, but I don't think they are fair comparisons, either. (Of course, as a practical matter, we probably do end up paying for the burglar at some subsistence level, whether in prison or a care facility. The drunk driver should have insurance.)
But what if the drunk paralyzes someone else and lacks the insurance or assets to take care of the victim? Do we as a society turn our back on that victim? Or what if the person with the catastrophic injury was doing something not as apparently dangerous as dirt jumping? For that matter, is dirt jumping that dangerous? Are there a lot of incidents like this? I'm sure there must be lots of minor injuries, up to broken limbs, but are there lots of broken backs or necks? It seems like a lot of people on this forum are saying this accident was a likely outcome, and I guess I'm surprised by that. If this sort of injury is common, then there will be lots more lawsuits, and the bike industry will be as big a target as local governments.
By the way, remember the first wave of skate parks back in the 70's? They all closed. What has changed since then that now they are being built, albeit usually by local governments? Is design better? Is it because local gov't can afford the insurance? Is park skating less risky than dirt jumping?
.........................
Good questions, guys, and I don't know that I have the answers. But let me toss out some thoughts and other questions. I think it's important we think about these things for the sport and for the larger community.
I think you'll see if you look at my first post again that I'm not suggesting we "offload responsibility". What I said was "Too bad there isn't some better system for catastrophes like this than to sue." I don't have much sympathy for the "victim" in either of the scenarios Squarewheels suggested, but I don't think they are fair comparisons, either. (Of course, as a practical matter, we probably do end up paying for the burglar at some subsistence level, whether in prison or a care facility. The drunk driver should have insurance.)
But what if the drunk paralyzes someone else and lacks the insurance or assets to take care of the victim? Do we as a society turn our back on that victim? Or what if the person with the catastrophic injury was doing something not as apparently dangerous as dirt jumping? For that matter, is dirt jumping that dangerous? Are there a lot of incidents like this? I'm sure there must be lots of minor injuries, up to broken limbs, but are there lots of broken backs or necks? It seems like a lot of people on this forum are saying this accident was a likely outcome, and I guess I'm surprised by that. If this sort of injury is common, then there will be lots more lawsuits, and the bike industry will be as big a target as local governments.
By the way, remember the first wave of skate parks back in the 70's? They all closed. What has changed since then that now they are being built, albeit usually by local governments? Is design better? Is it because local gov't can afford the insurance? Is park skating less risky than dirt jumping?
part of the reason that skateparks are covered is because skating is so big, MTB dirt jumping isn't, its unfair what happened to Cali, but I think that we can understand why his parents are sueing, because they don't want to see their son in a wheel chair for the rest of his life, he is only 16 I think
No.offdawalley said:
No "we" can't.
I've got a good friend sitting in a hospital right now with a remarkably similar situation. He went over the falls surfing in Long Beach, was dead for about 4 minutes (yes, well into the zone of uncertainty) and is now 2 months later starting to get feeling in his upper abdomen. His parents aren't suing King Neptune just because he's exhausted his insurance options. He's 25, not 16 so actually the entire burden is on him. What has happened however is that there have been several fundraisers as well as an open account for medical bill donations at Western Union. And his parents have started getting in contact with his ski friends (here in tahoe) his family friends back in seattle and his school friends down there to try to generate some revenue.
Suing other people for your own misfortune is one of the ways to make this country suck!!! And degrees of severity don't justify it anymore than if Alex had a skinned knee.
These are all responsibilities that come with having kids!! That until he/she is 18 (I think that's the age)
It's like if you owned a PitBull and one day you let him off his leash and suddenly he attacks a kid and severely injures him. Who do you think is responsible for the dogs actions? YOU!!!
Be careful what you say on forums...next thing you know you could get sued for causing e-discomfort by saying something bad!
It's like if you owned a PitBull and one day you let him off his leash and suddenly he attacks a kid and severely injures him. Who do you think is responsible for the dogs actions? YOU!!!
Be careful what you say on forums...next thing you know you could get sued for causing e-discomfort by saying something bad!
what I was trying to say was that I don't think his parents understand what Cali means to so many people, they are not out there jumping, they shouldn't have the right to sue the city, and I don't agree with it, I was just saying that I understand why his parents are sueing, I don't even know Grande but I don't think that he would NOT sue the city
no disrespect
Medical expenses are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US. With a decent universal health care system, like those in Canada and Europe, Grandes father would have no need to sue. Stop blaming the small potatoes and get down to the root of the problem. When election day comes in just a few short hours, keep all of this in mind...
jeff, you old enough to vote?
Well when I wrecked myself at cali I sent parks and rec a letter assuring them that the community was responsible for its actions and the city had nothing to worry about. They even sent me back a letter thanking me and saying that they thought cali was a good thing for the city.
It didn't occur to me that the PARENTS of riders would be an issue. I am so mad at the whole world right now for sucking. SO MAD.
Here's a thought:
The government can require motorists to have insurance...
The government SHOULD require "extreeeeem athletes" to have health insurance. I have insurance, and I get my money's worth (100,000+ for elbow and counting). I can be the "secratary of gnar" and I willl decide which sports need licenses and insurance mandates.
P.S.: Someone explain to me again why this problem cannot be resolved with waivers.
P.P.S: I am moving to australia in a month. thank god.
It didn't occur to me that the PARENTS of riders would be an issue. I am so mad at the whole world right now for sucking. SO MAD.
Here's a thought:
The government can require motorists to have insurance...
The government SHOULD require "extreeeeem athletes" to have health insurance. I have insurance, and I get my money's worth (100,000+ for elbow and counting). I can be the "secratary of gnar" and I willl decide which sports need licenses and insurance mandates.
P.S.: Someone explain to me again why this problem cannot be resolved with waivers.
P.P.S: I am moving to australia in a month. thank god.
your seriously moving there?...for how long?...can i come?SirChomps-a-Lot said:
I heard a rumor that the city hired Matt Mardesich to "design" and maintain Cali. I really doubt this ever happened, but it brings up a good point. If we can get a "professional" rider to step in and "engineer" the jumps, it might make everything good. Grande's father is suing because the jumps weren't built by an engineer. With a professional involved, it might put and end to the lawsuit. At the same time, that's a heck of a lotta work. Hmmm, maybe we could get Beavers, a pro rider and engineer, to check over the jumps and certify that they're all built properly. That might just work in weakening the lawsuit, and in turn, saving the spot.
HarryCallahan said:
yes they should say oh well. these things happen. begging for oney in the form of a lawsuit because the jumps werent built by an engineer is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. They are dirt jumps for crying out loud. the parents knew he was out there jumping the city or whoever should not be liable for it.
as far as lance is concerned he had no insurance at all at that time in his life until oakley stepped up to bat. maybe he should sue cancer.