[DaveW]

I'd have to admit that I'm quite envious of all the pimpin euro diesel's that I've been seening around here in switzerland over the last month...... And they are not slow either...... I was sitting on 160kmph on the autobahn and getting left for dead by them.

 

[Toshi]

Why won't America embrace diesel?

The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have

inflated owner/fanboi reports aside a TDI jetta gets quite a bit worse mileage than a prius, on more expensive fuel. what's not to get? i'd love a hypothetical diesel hybrid (the first aptera series hybrid prototype used a diesel for its generator) but its only a bandaid because WVO is much more inconvenient than slipping one's credit card into the pump at the corner.

and with regard to this 65 mpg ford: a) US gallon != Imperial gallon (0.8:1 iirc); b) european (and japanese) driving cycles for testing purposes are much easier than those offered up by the EPA.

 

[jimmydean]

inflated owner/fanboi reports aside a TDI jetta gets quite a bit worse mileage than a prius, on more expensive fuel. what's not to get? i'd love a hypothetical diesel hybrid (the first aptera series hybrid prototype used a diesel for its generator) but its only a bandaid because WVO is much more inconvenient than slipping one's credit card into the pump at the corner.

and with regard to this 65 mpg ford: a) US gallon != Imperial gallon (0.8:1 iirc); b) european (and japanese) driving cycles for testing purposes are much easier than those offered up by the EPA.

While the TDI is worse than a Prius, it's still a great deal better than a "normal" fossil fuel rig. Also, with diesel pumps in Portland selling at least B5, it's not so much about home brew around here (it's damn near impossible to get WVO now that companies pay for it). Shell in Donald sells B99 and there are a growing number of B20 pumps as well.

Diesel blends have a better chance at sustainability than regular fuel. Combine that with the better mileage, even if it's only 20% better, is still a more viable option.

I would love a diesel hybrid.

 

[Westy]

Diesel engines cost more. The biggest factor is basically the American market is driven almost strictly by price. We will take cheap crap over good but pricy every time.

 

[Toshi]

Diesel engines cost more. The biggest factor is basically the American market is driven almost strictly by price. We will take cheap crap over good but pricy every time.

yet that doesn't explain the phenomenal demand for the Prius. if one puts on blinders and simply considers a new car with a warranty, 4 doors, and 4ish seats to be adequate then it is impossible to make the case for it as opposed to a Yaris or Corolla. american customers can grasp more intangible factors, but just not with consistency.

 

[jimmydean]

Diesel engines cost more. The biggest factor is basically the American market is driven almost strictly by price. We will take cheap crap over good but pricy every time.

Not always. Diesel engines do cost more, but also last an average of 2-3 times as long. Not many American and European gassers do well over 100k. Yet a diesel can go 300k with minimal wear.

But I do get your point. I am in the "buy good used" camp rather than cheap new.

 

[Toshi]

chrysler announced the fruits thus far of its ENVI project, namely 3 concept cars and 1 production-ready NEV.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4284293.html

the concepts: an electric Lotus Europa with fanciful specs (sub 5-sec 0=60, 120 mph top speed, 200 mi range); Jeep and Chrysler minivan range extended EVs a la the Volt, with a 40 mile electric-only range and a "400 mile" range on "8 or 9 gallons of fuel". the production NEV is the usual fare, looking like a moon buggy, limited to 25 mph, and with a 30 mile range.

the interesting part of the article besides the attempt at swaying public opinion to support govt loans to the automakers (hell, who's not getting bailed out these days?) is that chrysler claims they could take these cars to market in 2010.

dude.

 

[stevew]

TDI

hey vw, send this over here.

 

[Westy]

yet that doesn't explain the phenomenal demand for the Prius. if one puts on blinders and simply considers a new car with a warranty, 4 doors, and 4ish seats to be adequate then it is impossible to make the case for it as opposed to a Yaris or Corolla. american customers can grasp more intangible factors, but just not with consistency.

At least where I live the prius is a fashion item. People who own them traded in an Eddie Bauer edition Ford explorer to get one. For the most part a diesel will not be so lucky. TDI's have a cult following but partially because the demand for them was low enough few ever made it into the country. Once the average 'merican gets an oily hand after filling up the diesel will not look so fashionable. A downturn in the economy may help but most people can't grasp the idea of total cost of ownership over their monthly payments.

 

[CBJ]

plus it's a "mild hybrid" a la the current civic hybrid. can't run on electric juice alone for any distance. sad, even if it will be a good performer especially if it comes in at $18k.

and fwiw i thought the concept volt was ugly and unpractical, not to mention Bob Lutz's comment that it probably would have been more aerodynamic if they ran it backwards in the wind tunnel.

Ok, I did not read anywhere that it was a mild hybrid what a shame. I did read that they will all look a lot alike because of aerodynamics dictating the car design.

 

[jimmydean]

hey vw, send this over here.

I would rock that!

With all the latest mods to my friends Dodge Ram 3500 quad cab dually 4x4, he is pushing well over 400hp, 900ftlbs and gets 18/26 on B20 with the 5 speed. Last long road trip was 28mpg all highway.

Supposedly it will do even better once we swap in the 6 speed gearbox. It would be nice to see what it gets on B100.

 

[Toshi]

honda and yamaha developing full-electric motorcycles, possibly by 2010! plus a rumor of a honda hybrid-electric motorcycle range, from 50 to 1000cc displacement.

http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/09/honda-developin.html

 

[Toshi]

thanks to stevew for the tip:

CBS 60 Minutes: The Race for the Electric Car

mentioned: Tesla, Volt, Fisker Karma (including venture capitalists as mentioned in the "gas at $20/gallon" thread), Aptera, and the real possibility of failure.

 

[Toshi]

Awesome

the Kinetic entry (Prisoners of Petroleum) is leading the Escape from Berkeley race!

build log for the lotus 7-with-kubota mutt: http://www.kineticvehicles.com/XPrizeIntro.html

(this one, the original, was totaled this summer after being rear ended, but the second incarnation is out there kicking butt in the hippie-race and will be one of the automotive X prize, now christened the progressive auto x prize, competitors)

 

[jimmydean]

Oh yeah!

Link

Look out Tesla / Lightning -- a new competitor just rolled out, and it's sitting pretty. Ruf Automobile has gone public with its stunning electric eRUF concept car, which is obviously based on a Porsche 911. The automobile packs a three-phase electric motor that puts out around 200-horsepower and 480 lb.-ft. of torque, and it can reportedly go from nothing to sixty in under seven ticks. The juice is provided by a Li-ion phosphate battery pack that produces 317-volts / 480-amps and is constructed from 96 individual cells, and combined with the power garnered by the regenerative braking system, it can cruise up to 180 miles before needing a ten-hour recharge.

 

[jimmydean]

I was looking for a youtube version of this when I found the RUF article.

 

[SkaredShtles]

What they don't tell you is that if you drive it like a Porsche SHOULD be driven the batteries last 8 miles.

 

[jimmydean]

Eco-cars RULE!

Shelby Ultimate Aero EV

Shelby SuperCars makes the kind of cars that have over a 1,000 hp and can reach 250 mph. Not what you'd immediately associate with "low emissions" and "powered by clean energy", but the times they are a-changin'. Shelby's next hyper-fast car will be an electric vehicle, the Ultimate Aero EV. It's supposed to use a 500 hp electric motor, though 1000 hp twin-motor version, possibly with 4WD, is also on the drawing board.

Fisker Karma

With an acceleration from 0 to 60 mph of 5.8 seconds, the soon-to-be made in Finland Fisker Karma is not technically not faster than a Porsche 911, but it is a halo car that helps change the public's perception of greener cars. The Karma is a plug-in hybrid vehicle (similar to the GM Volt) with an all-electric range of 50 miles. Over that distance, a gasoline generator kicks in.

And as mentioned before (and still my personal favorite)

Wrightspeed X1

According to Wrightspeed: "The X1 prototype is a concept car, and a test platform. It is not a production car, and never will be. It’s a proof-of-concept vehicle that will lead to a production car in the future." It uses a modified Ariel Atom chassis, but the drivetrain is all electric. So what you see above isn't likely to end up in the showroom, but many parts of it, including the drivetrain, have a chance to make it. What's so special about the Wrightspeed X1? How about an acceleration from 0 to 60 of 3.07 seconds (in 117 feet)?

 

[Toshi]

2010 prius photos surface:

http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/54665-breaking-news-2010-prius-photos-posted-priuschat-first-confirmed-real.html

 

[Toshi]

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/10/17/revealed-electric-mini-e/

mini E.

We've known for a little while now that BMW would be introducing an electric version of its iconic MINI, and now we have the photo proof as Autocar has taken the wraps off the new electric car. Equipped with a 572-pound lithium ion battery of unknown capacity, the MINI E reportedly has a range of 150 miles after an 8-hour charge. Its electric heart beats out 204-horsepower and 162 lb-ft of torque, which should be plenty to make this MINI scoot. Indeed, the run to 60 should take a bit over 8-seconds and the top speed has been limited to 95 miles per hour. The entire car weighs in at a bit over 3,200 pounds and regenerative braking is used to extend the range.

more details:

- 500 to be built and delivered to the US in 2009
- private and fleet customers in NY, NJ, and, of course, California
- lease only, a la the General Motors EV1, with a one-year term with extension option, with the lease payment covering service, maintenance, and parts replacement (no option to buy at the end of the term!)
- 150 mile range
- back seat replaced by the battery
- 2.5h charge time with the provided 220V/80A charger
- Li-ion pack with 35 kWh capacity at nominally 380 V (possibly sourced from Tesla!), with 5088 cells in 48 modules
- weight is increased by 550 lbs over a Cooper S (total weight 3230 lbs/1465 kg)
- stability control is retained along with regenerative braking
- power steering and A/C are electrically driven
- 0-100 km/h in 8.5 seconds, top speed limited to 95 mph

 

[Toshi]

http://www.gasgoo.com/auto-news/1008035/Chinese-company-produces-1st-solar-powered-car.html

solar powered electric car from china! $5560, 150 km claimed range in exchange for 30h charging. i'm positive it wouldn't come close to us safety standards, and the speed is not mentioned but it's an encouraging development in any case.

 

[Toshi]

BioBot. lets you make ~20 gallons of biodiesel from WVO. $5k.

http://gizmodo.com/5067235/biobot-makes-bio-diesel-at-home

 

[C.P.]

mini E.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/products/cars/flash"]Hybrid Technologies has had one available for a little over a year now...

 

[Toshi]

Hybrid Technologies has had one available for a little over a year now...

true, and i trust that it was mentioned earlier in the thread. there's a big difference between a product tested and supported by a major manufacturer (with local dealers that can fix it!) and a $50k+ machine from a specialty shop.

 

[C.P.]

true, and i trust that it was mentioned earlier in the thread. there's a big difference between a product tested and supported by a major manufacturer (with local dealers that can fix it!) and a $50k+ machine from a specialty shop.

No doubt. It also appears that the Hybrid Tech model doesn't make mention of regenerative braking...the BMW model does...

 

[jimmydean]

Honda Prius, I mean Insight.

 

[Toshi]

the bankruptcy carnage begins: http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0811/gallery.gm__product_plans/7.html

GM's crisis-mode product plan

Saturn Vue Plug-in
Schedule: Delayed until 2011

The 2-mode Saturn Hybrid, a full-hybrid crossover SUV, is in the process of being introduced now.

GM had planned to introduce a plug-in Saturn Vue Hybrid in 2009. Now GM says it won't come out until 2011, launching after the Chevrolet Volt. Unlike the Volt, the Vue plug-in will not be able to drive under electric power alone.

Other than being able to take on electricity from a wall-plug it will operate like other hybrid SUVs. A gasoline engine will do most of the work with electric motors assisting. Nevertheless, fuel economy will be greatly improved compared to ordinary hybrids.

 

[Toshi]

the Kinetic entry (Prisoners of Petroleum) is leading the Escape from Berkeley race!

... and the Kinetic entry ended up winning, with a wood-gasifier Dodge Dakota coming in 2nd place.



in other news, the first mass-produced plug-in hybrid vehicle looks like it will be a scooter!

http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/11/11/piaggios-141-mpg-mp3-worlds-first-mass-produce-plug-in-hybrid/

The first mass-produced plug-in hybrid won’t be by GM or even Toyota. Italian scooter-maker Piaggio, who owns Vespa, says their plug-in hybrid MP3 scooter will get up to 141 mpg and will be on the roads as early as next year.
The parallel hybrid system of the Piaggio MP3 works just like Toyota’s Prius but provides additional mileage via an electrical cord that you can plug into a traditional wall socket. If Piaggio’s timeline is met, the scooter will be the world’s first mass-produced plug-in hybrid.
Power comes from a 125-cc gasoline engine mated to an electric motor allowing for a 0 to 60 mph time of 5 seconds. Piaggio says it has been working on its HyS hybrid powertrain for more than year. The hybrid system allows the MP3 scooter to travel 12.5 miles on electric power alone. Oh and it’s three-wheel easy-to-ride structure keeps you grounded and allows up to 40 degrees in turns.

i personally think this is a fabulous idea, but then again i do commute on a human-electric hybrid bike when not taking the electric trolley to work... irate2:

 

[jimmydean]

The MP3 looks damn cool!

 

[bikenweed]

I'd love to swap a small modern turbo diesel in my little toyota pickup.

YES! Why can't someone make a hybrid/diesel/electric/whatever pickup about the size of the old 4 banger, 2 seat, 2 wheel drive, standard cab, short bed Toyota's of the early 90's? There's a huge market for these old 'Yotas, and they struggle to get 24-25mpg.

1980's VW Rabbit pick up, with its diesel motor, supposedly gets around 42 mpg. That's what my Prius gets, and it's got no place to stash my moto! A trailer would ruin the mileage, and trailers are a PITA.

I'd love a hybrid motor in a tiny pickup. Ideal to drive my 195lb moto to the trails, or the MTB's out to sick new singletrack.

 

[jimmydean]

YES! Why can't someone make a hybrid/diesel/electric/whatever pickup about the size of the old 4 banger, 2 seat, 2 wheel drive, standard cab, short bed Toyota's of the early 90's? There's a huge market for these old 'Yotas, and they struggle to get 24-25mpg.

Toyota's are available in diesel everywhere but here.

I would love a 4 door turbo diesel Hilux.

 

[skatetokil]

Any idea why that is? My gut tells me it has something to do with the ****ing epa, but maybe toyota just doesn't think they'll sell.

 

[Toshi]

Any idea why that is? My gut tells me it has something to do with the ****ing epa, but maybe toyota just doesn't think they'll sell.

it's because of the EPA and CARB. but you can thank those regulations for having comparatively clean air. now that fuel economy is more pressing you may well see more offerings with diesels -- audi and VW in particular are promoting their diesels across a wider range of products than before, and subaru has their own diesel waiting in the wings but not yet firmly on the slate for importation to the u.s.

part of the problem is the horrid diesels of the 80s, and another part is the added cost: for small/cheap cars and pickups an extra couple of thousand really adds to the bottom line, and likely will never be made up for in fuel prices.

 

[wreckedrex]

Toyota's are available in diesel everywhere but here.

I would love a 4 door turbo diesel Hilux.

It's the perfect truck! The Tacoma sucks, it's way to damn big.

 

[bikenweed]

Toyota's are available in diesel everywhere but here.

I would love a 4 door turbo diesel Hilux.

Not me, and while I saw those (along with similar Nissan and Ford Ranger diesels) when I was in Spain, they're not at all the kind of truck I need.

I was curious about Tacoma versus Silverado MPG, so I did a little research. See the attached screen capture for my info. A Silverado with a small V8 will get 16 mpg, and a Tacoma with a V6 will get 18. Factor in that the little V6 in the 'Yota will be screaming to haul 2 dudes and their motos up a mountain, while the V8 won't even notice it. Also factor in that the Silverado seats up to 6, and 4 is fairly comfortably. Bottom line: Tacoma gets horrible gas mileage considering how tiny it is. I doubt a diesel would be much better. They're way too tall. I need something that gets at least 35MPG.

Something with a body style like this:

or

But with a motor like the VW 1.9l TDI Turbo Diesel. If that little motor makes at least 90HP, it'll move one of those small trucks and 450lbs in the bed up a mountain with no problems.

I don't need wheel drive. Not a 4-door (or even extended cab) "club cab" or whatever, just something small and simple, with enough torque to get 450lbs of dirt bikes/gear out to the trails. Why can't anyone build something like that? Is it just not cool enough?

 

[CBJ]

But with a motor like the VW 1.9l TDI Turbo Diesel. If that little motor makes at least 90HP, it'll move one of those small trucks and 450lbs in the bed up a mountain with no problems.

They are way more powerfull than that. I currently in Denmark driving a rented Opel 1.9 Turbo Diesel with 150 HP - its fast.

 

[dan-o]

Bikenweed, diesels usually give (conservatively) a 30% boost in mpg over a gasser.
My TD chevy gets 50% better in town and 35% better hwy than my old gas truck, which was otherwise identical, and it's by no means an 'economy oriented' diesel (360hp/650tq).

 

[Westy]

Gas is less than $2/gal. Americans don't have the attention span to care anymore, watch all these cars die.

 

[ire]

Gas is less than $2/gal. Americans don't have the attention span to care anymore, watch all these cars die.

I bet we see below $2/gal in the coming months. I would hope that people would remember $4/gal and that it will eventually come back, but somehow I doubt it

 

[jimmydean]

I don't need wheel drive. Not a 4-door (or even extended cab) "club cab" or whatever, just something small and simple, with enough torque to get 450lbs of dirt bikes/gear out to the trails. Why can't anyone build something like that? Is it just not cool enough?

No demand. You and 5 friends aren't enough of a demand for Toyota or any other company to build a truck for a market that small.

I was about half way into a diesel 2wd Chevy C10 project before it got way to expensive because that is what I was looking for. A truck to haul my family and our dirt toys on at least 25mpg.

I bought my 4x4 '89 Toyota 22RE for $2200 and I am getting 22mpg in it. I use it as a truck and not as a daily driver, so that works for me.

I have seen diesel Toyota's for sale on Craigs List, same body style you are talking about (84-88).