[thruster]

I just found out that the DNR has founded our trail and has destroy all the jumps and drops that we had bastards.

So could someone give me some advice on how to work with the DNR to let us build legal trails. I am told this is a lost cause. I don't feel bad for building ilegal trails because all they do is cut acres of trees eveywhere then feed us a bunch of bull crap on there web site on how they protect the enviroment yeh right. The only thing I would like would be a section that is not going to get torn down that we can build on, the last place we had was an old abandon road who would of ever thought that they would care about this.
Should I just keep building ilegal trails or try to work with the DNR?
So give me you thoughts.

 

[HippieKai]

i would never condone the building of ilegal trails but DNR isn't likely to let you either.
in this sport there are risks you take physicaly and legaly, you just have to choose how much of a risk you want to take.
kai-

 

[NineFingers]

I just found out that the DNR has founded our trail and has destroy all the jumps and drops that we had bastards.

So could someone give me some advice on how to work with the DNR to let us build legal trails. I am told this is a lost cause. I don't feel bad for building ilegal trails because all they do is cut acres of trees eveywhere then feed us a bunch of bull crap on there web site on how they protect the enviroment yeh right. The only thing I would like would be a section that is not going to get torn down that we can build on, the last place we had was an old abandon road who would of ever thought that they would care about this.
Should I just keep building ilegal trails or try to work with the DNR?
So give me you thoughts.

I feel for you man! It's total BS IMO and in this state, there seems to be no answer. This is why I'm moving back to somewhere rural just as soon as I graduate!

 

[thruster]

Building ilegal or legal trails it doesn't matter to me I just thought it might be easier trying to work with the DNR. I am going to ride reguardless of what they say. I would think there might be some legal action taken against the DNR only letting certain groups have access to public land like motorcycles that tear up the land worst then we do.

 

[HippieKai]

like motorcycles that tear up the land worst then we do.

i found out that most of those trails (in bellingham anyway) are ilegal too. They do let us use certain parts of land to ride...but not realy build anything new.

 

[buildyourown]

. I would think there might be some legal action taken against the DNR only letting certain groups have access to public land like motorcycles that tear up the land worst then we do.

That is probably the worst way to go about it. Threatening people with a lawsuit doesn't make them want to work WITH you. Perhaps contacting the IMBA and see if they are interested. I'm not sure what the DNRs policy is because they obviously allow bikes on some of thier lands. If you are going to build renegade trails, try and do it in a place where nobody goes. The trail wil be found and it will be destroyed.

 

[Borregokid]

This has been brought up before-building on public lands, if its done its going to be illegal and will get torn down. I live over in Cle Elum the home of the Rat Pac trail. Rat Pac is on private property, most of which was Plum Creek timber when the trail was built. Plum Creek has a long tradition of allowing multiple use of its forest lands, including ATV, ORV, and Hunting. The best bet on building a trail is to find something that is already there and build it up with natural materials, logs, berms etc. The recent article on Mountain Biking in the Seattle Times was about guys who built trails on private timber lands in the Olympia area. I think their rules were, keep it natural, no man made materials, no metal, no fires and no medi-vacs.

The downside is that like the recent road being knocked through Rat Pac you can expect the property to be logged eventually and you will have to put up with it. There are probably a lot of unused trails that could be converted into decent mountain bike trails in WA. Even next to Rat Pac there is a little used trail that goes straight down in a couple of places and I am sure there are other possible MTB trails in the area.

 

[buildyourown]

That is pretty good advice. Don't go and cut a fresh trail with lots of poorly constructed bridges and ladders. Those are easy to rip out with a small crew and a chainsaw. (ie, tapeworm) If you build it well with good berms and natural jumps that utilize natural features such as rocks and logs they are very hard to destroy. If the trail is already a legal one, then you aren't in the wrong at all and the relationship with the land manager is preserved.

I was up at 27 earlier this year and someone attempted to close the "new" trail. Since it was all natural, all they could do was drag debris onto the trail. Within 30 min we had it cleared. If we had had some shovels, and hour of digging would have been enough to make it as good as new.

 

[oly]

. The recent article on Mountain Biking in the Seattle Times was about guys who built trails on private timber lands in the Olympia area. I think their rules were, keep it natural, no man made materials, no metal, no fires and no medi-vacs.

Any more info on that? being from olympia my self that intrests me.

Also remember that on DNR land you cant hide from THESE guys..... Its their job to know whats out there......

 

[thruster]

All of our trails were done by using the natural jumps, berms and old dead tree drops better yet it was on a old dirt road that was use for logging not real well hidden but you would not know that there was anything there unless you hike into it. O'well time to start over and build something new. I am gald that they didn't do this in the summer time.

 

[buildyourown]

All of our trails were done by using the natural jumps, berms and old dead tree drops better yet it was on a old dirt road that was use for logging not real well hidden but you would not know that there was anything there unless you hike into it. O'well time to start over and build something new. I am gald that they didn't do this in the summer time.

Where was this trail? Just curious if I've ridden it.
BTW, logging companies often have a don't ask don't tell policy regarding bikes. At Tolt for example, they see trail construction as a good thinning for the forest system. We don't cut anything standing that is over 3" and we clear a lot of brush that hinders tree growth.

 

[Borregokid]

Any more info on that? being from olympia my self that intrests me.

Also remember that on DNR land you cant hide from THESE guys..... Its their job to know whats out there......

Heres the link to riding in SW Washington. I think it was last Thursdays Times.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/outdoors/2002055741_nwwbiking07.html

 

[oly]

Thanks for the link!

 

[trailhacker]

I was up at 27 earlier this year and someone attempted to close the "new" trail. Since it was all natural, all they could do was drag debris onto the trail. Within 30 min we had it cleared. If we had had some shovels, and hour of digging would have been enough to make it as good as new.

I could be wrong, but I think the people that tried to close the "new" trail were the people that built the "old" trail.
I remember about a year ago the original builders went through a lot of meetings with the DNR to keep the trail open. I think one of the conditions was that they don't build anything new. Then all of a sudden someone (on this board I believe) built this "new" trail that cuts across the road a few times in plain view.
I think the original people were concerned that everything they had worked for was going to get removed because of this "new" trail.
This is all just speculation of course........

 

[thruster]

The trail was up by jones creek near the one way trail.
I just got done talking to the DNR and was told the reason they tear down trails with stunts on them is that they could be responable if someone gets hurt. I was told if I want to build trails for freeriders I would have to lease the land from them and this would cost a lot. I can send in a proposal to the pacific northwest office and see were it takes me. Well not sure if I should waste my time or not.

 

[buildyourown]

I could be wrong, but I think the people that tried to close the "new" trail were the people that built the "old" trail.
I remember about a year ago the original builders went through a lot of meetings with the DNR to keep the trail open. I think one of the conditions was that they don't build anything new. Then all of a sudden someone (on this board I believe) built this "new" trail that cuts across the road a few times in plain view.
I think the original people were concerned that everything they had worked for was going to get removed because of this "new" trail.
This is all just speculation of course........

Yeah, I kind of new that. That trail was very poorly placed. Whoever "closed' it did a very poor job and all we did was clear debris that was more likely to hurt someone than effectively close the trail.

 

[zane]

Was it the larch freeride trail? Or the houseman trail?

 

[oly]

The trail was up by jones creek near the one way trail.
I just got done talking to the DNR and was told the reason they tear down trails with stunts on them is that they could be responable if someone gets hurt. I was told if I want to build trails for freeriders I would have to lease the land from them and this would cost a lot. I can send in a proposal to the pacific northwest office and see were it takes me. Well not sure if I should waste my time or not.

But what if i fall on a rock or root on a normal trail? Shouldnt i be able to hold them responsible then? To me thats sort of a dumb argument... but hey, it isnt my land.

 

[BoomSplat]

What dnr property are you guys talking about? Shoreline

 

[oly]

This trail was down south, but DNR has lands everywhere.

 

[oly]

jones creek....

http://www.dnr.wa.gov/dataandmaps/maps/pdf/jc_cover.pdf

 

[oly]

green mountain.....
http://www.dnr.wa.gov/dataandmaps/maps/pdf/gm_both.pdf

the master list....
http://www.dnr.wa.gov/dataandmaps/maps/trail_maps.htm

 

[thruster]

The houseman trail.

 

[Dave_Schuldt]

Have any of you riden in Tahulya State Forest? There is a thin layer of soil over gravel. The motos quickly rip through the soil and dig huge trenches. Mountain bikes will do the some thing it will just take longer. What I don't understand is why they are so concerened about Tiger. It's just a tree farm. We have put tons of work into Preston which I conseder a lame trail. Why can't we build more at Tiger while Tahulya is torn to bits?

 

[thesacrifice]

Building ilegal or legal trails it doesn't matter to me I just thought it might be easier trying to work with the DNR. I am going to ride reguardless of what they say. I would think there might be some legal action taken against the DNR only letting certain groups have access to public land like motorcycles that tear up the land worst then we do.

Way to approach the situation maturely

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

I think the problem is simple. We all need to learn how to do backflips, 360's and other gnar tricks...period.
What I meant to say is that freeriding is in a place now where skateboarding was just over a decade ago. Unknown, unappreciated and unaccepted. They persevered and prevailed. It seems like we're getting to the point where perseverence should begin to pay off.
The more a place such as Whistler continues to be successful, the more understanding the general public will be about what it is we are doing/what we're about.
We're basically fighting an undeclared war. We just have to go at it one battle at a time. The more battles we can endure, the closer to winning the war we shall be.
That is a day that I am anxiously anticipating.

I had a couple of buddies that built some stuff in a remote area near Index about a year ago. It took the DNR a whole month to tag it all for demolition. They're good.

 

[RhinofromWA]

As far as Moto killing the land I would tend to disagree....it jsut makes it harder for MTBrs to ride becuase they benefit from a smoother more packed surface.

I grew up riding dirt bikes and all I can say is that the land that has been taken away (or jsut plain old developed, a natural progression for the cities ) around these parts would boggle your mind.

Actually Tahuya hold up real well with the massive traffic it receives. THe gravel base actually holds up well, gives year round riding (even if 50% is puddle water it is still gravel base) I have ridden Tahuya a couple times on a MTB and it was. That land has been used fopr motorized recreation (along with hunting, logging, Horseman, and jsut about everything else you can think of) for many decades. Another issue is that money to maintain and manage the area is generated by ORV users. How many MTBrs buy tabs, parking passes (some do if they ride in areas it is required) and buy the extra gas to run the ORV's paying tax into the NOVA fund. A fund created to pay for and maintain trails for ORV's that has been pilliaged and stole from for non-ORV trails to better the areas hikers (and sometimes bikers) only get to use?

Don't make enemies with the ORV groups.....we get our trails shut down and get ticketed if we were to build illegal trails on private or DNR land.

Here is a thought......

ride where it is legal.

Man that sounds bitter. But a LOT of the areas you all ride are in a large part in existance because ORVs and the money and lobbying down 30-40 years ago. Free riders are only just now experiencing what ORV users have had to deal with for decades. Fact is MTB are no different to a tree hugger than a motorcycle unless you are only using the Burke Gilman trail.

Why can't MTB work with ORV user groups? Are we to granola? To close to our tree hugging past? Targeting other groups gets you no where.

How can someone sue for having a unauthorized trail tore down on someone elses land? This is getting me in a tizzy...... I appologize it jsut seem MTB are new to this land use issue and have some antiquated and stupid ideas. Not that I am enlightened....I have jsut been around it since I was a baby.

Rhino "bitter old man" from WA

 

[RhinofromWA]

I am going to ride reguardless of what they say. I would think there might be some legal action taken against the DNR only letting certain groups have access to public land like motorcycles that tear up the land worst then we do.

You can ride on the land available to motorcycles and other user groups. The unauthorized building of trails and creation of "stunts" on public lands is plain STUPID.

How you can equate a moto trial to a freeride stunt trail is beyond me. You don't see freeestyle moto ramps in Tahuya or Capital forest....right? You find Basic "trails"

Now consider what you are asking the DNR or Whomever to do. Sanction and take responsiblity(atleast in part) for something that is overtly dangerous. I don't care how good you think you are there are dumb arses that are going to come in after you leave and kill themselves.

A stunt six feet in the air is different than a root or a rock. You can't effectively remove a natural object though they maintain and do their best to. They build stuff to be safer and long lasting. Building a safe "Stunt" park is kind of oxymoron and you wouldn't be interested in it anyway.

 

[NineFingers]

Rhino makes a strong point. I basically gave up riding dirt bikes in this state because you have to drive 2 hours just to access an area to ride??? What I don't get is that this state has sooooooooo much land that one measily little trail in the national forest up 410, hwy 2 or anywhere else isn't really going to have any type of inpact on the land. There's hundreds of miles of THICK forest here in Washington, some area's so thick that you can't even hike in it. What is the government hiding out there in our thick forests that a man made trail will expose? Someone told me that this area holds the largest amount of Big foot sitings in the nation. Maybe the reason the activists are fighting to not allow any use of the land that is in huge abundance is because they are hiding something, possibly alien activities ?

Point is, there's tons of acres out there, and as long as were in the national forest, who cares if we cut a trail through the jungle?

Dirtbikers, hikers, horsemen, mtn. bikers etc are all of the same category...people outside enjoying the great outdoors, why are we arguing and fighting over the type of use we choose to partake in? It falls in line with the xc vs dh stupidity or skiers vs snowboarders...Aren't we out to have a good time in the great outdoors?

I for one don't mind dirtbikers on some of the trails as they seem to maintain them better than we do. Thing that sucks is that there's always some dumb sh!t in each group that spoils it all for the rest of us. (drunk hillbilly 4wheelers, cocky spandex xc guys who think they own the trail, prick dhers that blow past people, angry horsemen with guns, etc etc etc...) Then of course you have the hippie activists. Which I find funny that they are against mtn. biking as mtn biking is a form of non gasoline poluting transportation isn't it?

I think it's group hug time, lets all get together in a big circle with our different activity counter parts and sing Kumbayah(or however it's spelt)

 

[Borregokid]

Your post reminded me their was an article in the Ellensburg Daily Record the other day about some trail rebuilding they did here in the County. The article pointed out that the ORV Groups, 4x4 and hikers helped rebuild a couple of trails, but no mtb bikers were present. It did say that the trail rebuilding was mostly word of mouth. The BBTC does a lot of work, but is not as big as some of the other groups. Over here the snowmobile groups hauled out almost every bit of trash in the spring on the trails. In the past 5 months I hauled out 3 full pickups of trash around Rat Pac. It was a lot easier than trail rebuilding but if its not cleaned we could lose useage. I dont think mountain bikers did much of the trashing although I did find a fairly decent bike seat someone junked. I am pretty sure most of the trash was local, unless guys from the west side our bringing over enough furniture and appliances to fill a house.

Any idea where the state is spending the ORV funds they got hold of for trail building? I know Chelan got three miles of new mountain bike trails-kind of nice. We could sure use some more.

I dont know if it was the mountain bikes or the ORV's but US Timberlands did some serious trenching and piling debris over two of my favorite trails. They posted the area no ORV but you wont get a bike through unless you carry it.

 

[oly]

Yay rhino! Good points.

 

[Skookum]

As far as Moto killing the land I would tend to disagree....it jsut makes it harder for MTBrs to ride becuase they benefit from a smoother more packed surface.

No way dude moto's rip the crap out of trails, there are trails that can take the abuse and some that can't, that's just common sense. If motorcycles were there before i love the challenge of manualing thru 2 foot deep ruts and hopping light thru fat baby head rocks moto's stir up in the trail on a descent. Just incase you forgot there are mt. bikers that can handle and occasionaly like the destruction, but c'mon dude don't try to sell me that moto's don't rip the hell outta trails...

I grew up riding dirt bikes and all I can say is that the land that has been taken away (or jsut plain old developed, a natural progression for the cities ) around these parts would boggle your mind.

This is very true, not many here know that in the 70's and early 80's the sandy section of South Seatac was actually called the "Sandpits" and was used by dirtbikes.

Actually Tahuya hold up real well with the massive traffic it receives. THe gravel base actually holds up well, gives year round riding (even if 50% is puddle water it is still gravel base) I have ridden Tahuya a couple times on a MTB and it was. That land has been used fopr motorized recreation (along with hunting, logging, Horseman, and jsut about everything else you can think of) for many decades.

i've heard that Tahuya sucks for mtb but i've never been maybe i should check it out. i just read the other thread about moto's gettin kicked out of Green Mt. that's seems pretty lame to me, because of the points you bring up, and since trails like Wildcat can take the abuse.

Another issue is that money to maintain and manage the area is generated by ORV users. How many MTBrs buy tabs, parking passes (some do if they ride in areas it is required) and buy the extra gas to run the ORV's paying tax into the NOVA fund. A fund created to pay for and maintain trails for ORV's that has been pilliaged and stole from for non-ORV trails to better the areas hikers (and sometimes bikers) only get to use?

boo hoo hoo...
crying because government rips you off? Get in line..... :devil:

Don't make enemies with the ORV groups.....we get our trails shut down and get ticketed if we were to build illegal trails on private or DNR land.

This spoken from the guy who told Serial Midget he shouldn't be allowed to ride his road bike on the road, because road bikes get in your way when you drive your vehicle.... Tell us the truth are you just addicted to gasoline fumes, or do you just own stock in Halliburton....

Here is a thought......

ride where it is legal.

You're no fun......

Man that sounds bitter. But a LOT of the areas you all ride are in a large part in existance because ORVs and the money and lobbying down 30-40 years ago. Free riders are only just now experiencing what ORV users have had to deal with for decades. Fact is MTB are no different to a tree hugger than a motorcycle unless you are only using the Burke Gilman trail.

Why can't MTB work with ORV user groups? Are we to granola? To close to our tree hugging past? Targeting other groups gets you no where.

Yes this is true and i really don't know why there seems to be a push to kick out dirt bikers out of DNR areas....
i can tell you this though. Trails built for and by mt. bikers from XC trails like Lake Sawyer are cool and cannot handle moto or horsey use. The same goes for the freeride trails. So it's interesting, i agree with you, that where moto's are accepted like Cap, Green, Tahuya, Ravens Roost, Tanuem, Mission Ridge etc. etc. i think it's bad bad policy for mt. bikers to work against moto's.
But as far as mt. bike trails for mt. bikers it sucks big balls for dirt bikers or horseys to come thrash our trails. Victor Falls is a perfect example of that. Gaibraith would suck if moto's were allowed in there.....
But if there's a push from mt. bikers to go against dirt bikers i would suspect the reasons i state above are the justification....

 

[Borneo]

I feel like an idiot just responding...
How many times do we have to go over this?
You build without permission anywhere and it's likely that it will be torn down. Those who go ahead and do it should know the consequences. You want legal freeride stuff? Go to a meeting, write that letter(please use spellcheck), play the game and get it done legally instead of whining about it here.
No whining allowed. Although, good typing skills may earn one a couple empathy points.
Even wunder why the peple who whine about getin' ther botleg trials torn down by the man kan't splel?

As for "upgrading" existing trails. There's two points to make. If anyone built berms and jumps on Preston using natural materials without permission for example, the proverbial crap would hit the rotary air pusher. On two fronts, from the BBTC because they've been working with the DNR all these years on those trails. And, from the DNR itself. And, for good reason.
Now, for the touchy part. Upgrading existing trails that are user built(bootleg, illegal, whatever) is the ultimate disrespect for the original trailbuilder. You don't like the flow? Build your own. Get permission or go elsewhere.

Personally, I'd would'nt like to see someone try to sue the DNR. It would just help put the hammer down on what they already consider their 3rd biggest problem on the lands they manage. The progress that has been made at 38 shows that it can be done. If the New Trail does indeed need to be blocked in order to preserve the rest. Then, it should be done. And, done well. With a sign (or many) stating as to why so that no one wastes 30 minuites of riding time undoing it in the future.

 

[RhinofromWA]

No way dude moto's rip the crap out of trails, there are trails that can take the abuse and some that can't, that's just common sense. If motorcycles were there before i love the challenge of manualing thru 2 foot deep ruts and hopping light thru fat baby head rocks moto's stir up in the trail on a descent. Just incase you forgot there are mt. bikers that can handle and occasionaly like the destruction, but c'mon dude don't try to sell me that moto's don't rip the hell outta trails...

MTB are destructive also...now we are going to argue how much? See how much destgruction happens at Snoqualmie pass when the lifts were running and how much the land changes after a day.....

Bikes are destructive (not as much) to the land and are seen as so by many naturalists and greeners.

To argue that a 50hp big nobied bikes does more damage is a no brainer. But please don't dilusion yourself into thinking MTB are non-impactive to the environment.

Tis is very true, not many here know that in the 70's and early 80's the sandy section of South Seatac was actually called the "Sandpits" and was used by dirtbikes.

i've heard that Tahuya sucks for mtb but i've never been maybe i should check it out. i just read the other thread about moto's gettin kicked out of Green Mt. that's seems pretty lame to me, because of the points you bring up, and since trails like Wildcat can take the abuse.

The way it goes I guess....

boo hoo hoo...
crying because government rips you off? Get in line..... :devil:

You mean illegally ignoring the rules set up to the proper use of ORV funds? YEah I am a little down on that.

This spoken from the guy who told Serial Midget he shouldn't be allowed to ride his road bike on the road, because road bikes get in your way when you drive your vehicle.... Tell us the truth are you just addicted to gasoline fumes, or do you just own stock in Halliburton....

THat was because I feal a 200lbs biker/bike combo should yield to 3 ton vehicle driver combo based on physices alone....

You're no fun......

Your momma dresses you funny.....

Yes this is true and i really don't know why there seems to be a push to kick out dirt bikers out of DNR areas....
i can tell you this though. Trails built for and by mt. bikers from XC trails like Lake Sawyer are cool and cannot handle moto or horsey use. The same goes for the freeride trails.

Are moto's legal to ride there? If not I don't condone riding there.

So it's interesting, i agree with you, that where moto's are accepted like Cap, Green, Tahuya, Ravens Roost, Tanuem, Mission Ridge etc. etc. i think it's bad bad policy for mt. bikers to work against moto's.
But as far as mt. bike trails for mt. bikers it sucks big balls for dirt bikers or horseys to come thrash our trails. Victor Falls is a perfect example of that. Gaibraith would suck if moto's were allowed in there.....
But if there's a push from mt. bikers to go against dirt bikers i would suspect the reasons i state above are the justification....

If it is illegal for dirt bikes to ride on these "legal (for non-motorized)" trails then I agree the bikes should be kept out. But to attack dirt bikes because they hurt the earth more than MTB is poor ground to stand on. Try Tahuya out some time. It isn't that bad. It is sandy and can be loose so bicyclists generally have a harder time there. It is relatively flat land with short hills and long loops. The DNR map is outdated....you may try to find someone who knows the area to show you around. Some trails are better suited for human powered pedaling....it jsut depends. I rode from the main paved parking lot to the sand pit and back on the road (because I didn't know how to get back with out back tracking : ) for a good 3 hr ride. Some trails are wooped out. THey generaly are the heavily traveled and near the parking lots for the "squids" tend to screw around on. Keep in mind the traffic this area sees has intensified incredibly over the last decade or so because huge tracks of land have dissappeared (developed) or taken away (closed down) to dirt bikes. Like anything....to much in a small area drastically increases the wear on the area. It used to be really nice when I was 10yo riding around on my dirt bike. It istill is but the preasure is there.

100 bike on 100 acres or 90 bikes on 10 acres...there is a difference on the impact of the land.

 

[buildyourown]

MTB are destructive also...now we are going to argue how much? See how much destgruction happens at Snoqualmie pass when the lifts were running and how much the land changes after a day.....

Bikes are destructive (not as much) to the land and are seen as so by many naturalists and greeners.

To argue that a 50hp big nobied bikes does more damage is a no brainer. But please don't dilusion yourself into thinking MTB are non-impactive to the environment.

Lumping DH bikes in with xc bikes isn't fair either. Riding dh bikes hard at a ski area were all the trees are already cut down and the trails will see maintenance is ok in my book. Look how much trail damage is done at an area like tolt that sees lots of traffic but because of the nature of the trail, you aren't skidding into corners and roosting your tires. Not much.

Apples to oranges. I think it's fair to say that there are areas for motorcycles and areas for bikes. Some they can share, some they shouldn't

 

[RhinofromWA]

Lumping DH bikes in with xc bikes isn't fair either. Riding dh bikes hard at a ski area were all the trees are already cut down and the trails will see maintenance is ok in my book. Look how much trail damage is done at an area like tolt that sees lots of traffic but because of the nature of the trail, you aren't skidding into corners and roosting your tires. Not much.

Apples to oranges. I think it's fair to say that there are areas for motorcycles and areas for bikes. Some they can share, some they shouldn't

News flash.....

People other than MTB don't see the difference. I used the DH bikes because you can actually see the change in short order. There weren't that many riders up there on the weekends either. It had a definate impact ont he land and no maintenance was going to fully correct it. The key is to deminish the negative impact. Much of what dirt bikers and other groups try to do.....though many dirtbikers don't have MTBs in mind when building or repairing areas. First most id your own interest....like MTB have when building their trails...it is not a new concept and shouldn't suprise anyone.

You wouldn't need knobbies if you were a non-impact sport. I am not sayign that MTB are bad...good god don't take it that way. But is most of what you see is the trail leaving from a parking lot for dirt bikes and base your opinion on that you are grossly mistaken.

The arguement sort of morphed into "how can the DNR do this to us MTBrs when dirt bikes are the devil"....sort of agruement. That is just ignorance at it's best. Way to deflect your own issues onto an easier target so you can sneek under the radar.

St eds is a spot used mostly by XC and trail bicycles......you can't say that the area is not affected by MTB's. The question is how much are you ready to allow? To certain recreational groups the annoying MTB should probably be kciked out of the park. It is all in thier better interest to kick you out. MTB tear it up more than hikers...wich by definition use a trail that is a destruction of forrest....to a degree.

Ride 30-40 miles out into tanuem and see how motorcycles haven't ravaged the earth and yet have ridden there for more than half of a centery......

I tend to stick up for ORV use because of my background. I have expereinced both. I grew up on dirt bikes and really got into MTB 10+ years ago..... so I have formed opinions. Ocassionally I voice them.

 

[ioscope]

I actually did a pretty extensive report on this issue. I'll send it to anyone who wants it. Basically it makes a case that mountain bikes erode/disrupt/trample less or equally as horses, hikers, etc. i.e. In scientific studies, mountain bikes affect nature less than ANY other trail users.

 

[oly]

I actually did a pretty extensive report on this issue. I'll send it to anyone who wants it. Basically it makes a case that mountain bikes erode/disrupt/trample less or equally as horses, hikers, etc. i.e. In scientific studies, mountain bikes affect nature less than ANY other trail users.

Unless your skidding down plummer on GM like last sunday.....

 

[Skookum]

Unless your skidding down plummer on GM like last sunday.....

aha :evil: don't worry ioscope i think it was your pedals screwin you up.

on that trail i put my foot down and possibly moved a rock!!!!

i don't think i'm dissillusion about trail damage at all from my personal perspective. Hell i believe a deer trail is damage, let's tell the deer to use different routes dammit!!! The back trails of Taneum are less traveled is all, let's ride out at Rieter Pit to get an idea of what moto's are about. Popular mt. bike trails are equivelant to popular hiking trails, i've been on a few trails in my day....

but still while an intersesting side issue trail damage isn't really the issue so much as liability with illegal free-ride trails. (i just like flippin crap to Rhino mostly) It's a new sport, people haven't been doin the "NorthShore" thing or even mt. biking for that matter for 40 plus years. It's a little bit unfair to compare ORV users and mt. bikers since mt. bikers are just recently getting established as a community and still trying to find an identity really. Andy (DBRX whatever...) made some comments earlier in the thread i think alot of people here silently believe when it comes to the issues at hand. But on the other side of the spectrum you are correct to point out that mt. bikers ARE NOT ENTITLED to slap down trails wherever we want. In other words don't whine and cry when they find and destroy your trail. We have to work towards legitamacy to get things accepted and it takes time, effort, on the political front as well as the underground (or overground in our case) movement.

 

[oly]

Thats it, im making hover bikes that dont skid up the trails, and auto correct for poorly built jumps. That way no one will have anything to complain about.......