[JMAC]

Last year my physio told me not to use those leg extension things(the one that you're sitting and you straighten your leg) because it's bad for your knees. So i haven;t been using them, anyways i've started to notice an imbalance in my quads pulling my petalla outwards.
So yesterday i just said "screw this" and went on the that leg machine. It didn't hurt except i really felt it in my inner quad the one that's weak. So i'm thinking i should start using it to get everything in balance. What do you think?

 

[bbmj]

i think if you have an imbalance than you do whatever exercise you need to do to bring it back to where it should be. Just make sure that the exercise you choose doesnt end up making things worse. I havent really heard anything "bad" about leg extensions, but i think that there are better exercises out there for quad or thigh development

 

[SilentJ]

Ive gotten some different opinions on leg extensions. One physio told me that theyre bad, one told me that theyre good and my surgeon told me theyre good.

In the experience that Ive had, they're good. I think it depends on an individuals knee. Maybe they are bad for some peeps? I dont know. I do know that for me, contrary to what everyone told me, swimming was bad. I went swimming during the rehab process and it did nothing but hurt my knee in a bad way. Then everyone told me that I was doing something wrong because they were so convinced that swimming was the saviour of all knees everywhere.

I assume you've had some knee troubles? Ive got zero cartilage in my knees and a very slack ACL in my left. The leg exercises I do are:
Extensions
Hammy curls
Light lunges on the Smith machine (the one where the bar is attached to rails)
Light squats on the Smith machine <-bunch of foot positions
Walking lunges
I climb a retarded amount of stairs
Sprints (not jogging because jogging is the :devil: )
and a bunch of calf stuff

 

[Tweek]

My knees are kind of shot and I do leg extensions all the time. I never feel any problems in my knees because of it. One machine I DID stop using was the one (forget the name) where you're leaning back a bit but standing, the weight's on your shoulders and you do sort of a deep-knee-bend type of motion. That thing would always make me feel sore in my knee joints.

 

[bbmj]

Here we go. Forgot about some of the reference material i have. THis is from Mel Siff's book Supertraining, Mell Siff was one of if not the best strength/sport training coaches ever. Anyway what it says in here is:
"Most hyperextension machies increase the stress on the hamstrings and soft tissues of the knee, particularly the popliteal muscle and the joint capsule. Frequently, they do not permit you to change the height of the foot restraint or the distance between the hips and the ankles, so that the knees tends to be hyperextended and the advisable trajectory for the spine cannot be followed. To avoid damage to the structures of the knee or spine, you should not accelerate or decelerate rapidly. In addition, return to the upright posture after inversion can produce postural hypotension and consequent fainting, so you should keep your head low, and stand up gently and move the legs after completing the exercise. Individuals with abnormally low or high blood pressure should advoid the use of such devices. (Siff, 469) and
"Any machine that requires you to sit prevents you from using your hip, knee, and ankle joints to absorb shock or redistrivbute loading. The posture of stable neutral pelvic tilt becomes far more difficult to maintain throughout the exercise, spinal hyperextension, and hyperflexion occurs more easily, and spinal stress becomes much more likely. (Siff, 469) here is some more fun stuff to think about
"It is not appreciated that seated exercises always imposes a greater load on the lumbar spinal discs than equivalent standing exercises. Even without added load, sitting with the back, maintaining its neutral curvatures increases the lumbar disc pressure by about 40% (Chaffin & Andersson. 1984). If the back is allowed to flex forwars, this stress can increase by as much as 90%. An ergonomically designed backrest which adequately supports the lumbar region lowers the stress, but even then the lumbar disc pressure can be some 75% greater than during standing. The increase in stress becomes far greater against resistance, particularly if jerky movements are used to initiate or terminate the movement. the dangers are exacerbated by sitting, because one is unable to absord any shock by flexing the knees, hips or ankles, as is the case when standing. In the vast majority of cases NFR (non-functional resistance machines) provide an inferior, incomplete and less efficient way of training the muscoskeletal system (Siff 238)." and a little more reading for you:
"Some machines such as leg extension, lat pulley, and seated bicep curl machines are certainly safer if an individual is suffering from back weakness or injury (when compared to squats, or olympic movements). They can be very helpful in the early stages or re-habilitation, but are not helpful in hte long-term since continual avoidance of streess to the regions involved eventually leads to their progressive weakening. There is a defininte supplementary place in the gymnasium for certain NFR machines, but they should not replace free weights, pulley machines, and other functional resistance devices (Siff, 238)." so take from that what you want, basically it sounds like there are better exercises that someone qualified could demonstate to you to help balance out your knee problem.

 

[JMAC]

Wow thanks for all the info I think i'm going to go ahead and use the machine to get everything back in balance. If i start to get any pain from it i'll simply stop.

 

[DHRacer]

mondays are my legs days (for another two weeks anyway), and I've always heard and been told that leg extensions are an non-practical exercise... meaning, they make the muscle look pretty, but not improve it's funciton.

At any rate, what I've found that real works over my quads is Hack Squats. Smith racks are good, for squats, but they dont' isolate the the quad, you use a lot more muscle groups.

another that I've found that i feels works your inner leg is one leg leg presses... let the weight down slow, then explode out... good if your looking to develope explosive power in the legs.

anyway, just my two cents... hope everything works out the way you want

 

[JMAC]

Originally posted by DHRacer
mondays are my legs days (for another two weeks anyway), and I've always heard and been told that leg extensions are an non-practical exercise... meaning, they make the muscle look pretty, but not improve it's funciton.

At any rate, what I've found that real works over my quads is Hack Squats. Smith racks are good, for squats, but they dont' isolate the the quad, you use a lot more muscle groups.

another that I've found that i feels works your inner leg is one leg leg presses... let the weight down slow, then explode out... good if your looking to develope explosive power in the legs.

anyway, just my two cents... hope everything works out the way you want

well i did only extensions yesterday and after i did some squats just to see if it was the same muscles and i couldn't lift any weight on the squat rack. I find the muscles i use on the exctesion feel much like when i;m riding.

 

[douglas]

I do leg extensions, but only the 'top half' - I stop at 45 degrees (instead of bringing my legs all the way down for each rep)

 

[Westy]

A few years ago I was having terrible knee pain. Went to the doctors and he said I've had an imbalance and my knees looked "much older" than I was. He told me to do extensions as well as squats but to never bend my knee more than 80 or so degrees. I took his advice and my knees felt better in a few weeks and have felt great ever since.

 

[JMAC]

Originally posted by douglas
I do leg extensions, but only the 'top half' - I stop at 45 degrees (instead of bringing my legs all the way down for each rep)

Thats sounds like a good idea because for cycling you don't use a full 90degree movement.

 

[Nate at RIT]

Bah, just do some good old fashioned ass to the grass squats. Nothing like them for leg development and power. Here's a good one that always kicks my ass. Find a weight you can do for 10-12 reps without stopping. Put that same weight on, and do 20 reps with that weight without putting it back on the supports. If you have rest, do so, but with the weight still on your shoulders. However long it takes you to grunt them out, do it, I promise it'll be worth it. Only do one set though, if you do it right you should only need one hard set of these. Be aware though, you should set the pins up at the correct level, and/or have a spotter. First time I did this, I put the bar back on the supports, hung onto it, adn everything went black for a couple of minutes.

Try to get away from machines, and use as many free weights as possible. Of course, this is assuming you're perfectly healthy, and not re-habbing.

 

[Jorvik]

Originally posted by Nate at RIT
Bah, just do some good old fashioned ass to the grass squats. Nothing like them for leg development and power.

Try to get away from machines, and use as many free weights as possible. Of course, this is assuming you're perfectly healthy, and not re-habbing.

Exactly. Free weights should be the base of your workout regime. Machines should only be a small part of it.

 

[Grendal]

I did personal training for years and still train with weights. I just went thru my 2nd knee surgery. The WORST thing you can do for knees is, leg extensions and lunges. Your best bet on buidling up your quads is to do single leg presses. This keeps you from favoring 1 side or the other. Another good one is to use the smith machine and do squats, but with light weight. Take it from someone who has went thru a couple of surgeries....

 

[DHRacer]

Originally posted by JMAC
well i did only extensions yesterday and after i did some squats just to see if it was the same muscles and i couldn't lift any weight on the squat rack. I find the muscles i use on the exctesion feel much like when i;m riding.

but think about it... the movement you do when riding is not the same as when doing leg extensions. when riding, you don't kick your leg out straight... so while the muscle might burn the same, it's not the same movement, thus you'd not really increase the power

I know that didn't probably make a lot of sense the way it's written...

 

[DHRacer]

Originally posted by Nate at RIT


Try to get away from machines, and use as many free weights as possible. Of course, this is assuming you're perfectly healthy, and not re-habbing.

Smith machines and Hack squat sleds are free weights (i consider any thing that uses a pullely system as a machine and straight weight as free weights) they just help isolate the movement and are safer for the person doing the exercise.

 

[Jorvik]

Originally posted by DHRacer
Smith machines and Hack squat sleds are free weights (i consider any thing that uses a pullely system as a machine and straight weight as free weights) they just help isolate the movement and are safer for the person doing the exercise.

No they arn't. They are machines that limit your range of motion. They are no safer than using proper form on free weights. In fact, you're better off learning proper form and using free weights than just stepping into a machine and pushing weight around.

Free weights are dumbells and bars.

 

[ito]

I'll chime in here too. After knee surgery I was told to stay away from leg extensions and to probably stay away from them altogether. It can damage the knee and puts strain on it that isn't meant to be there. My physical therapist that told me this got me active in about half the time I should have been, so I'll trust her on this. Since then I've stayed away from any machine except for the leg press, which I use for single leg and to isolate my VMO when it wasn't responding.

I've started working out with weights regularily now and find that freeweights definitely have an advantage. They also happen to be alot more interesting than machines and you are able to do a number of different excercises and motions without changing machines and waiting. Once you learn proper technique and as long as you stay smart about the weight you are lifting I think you'll stay pretty safe.

The Ito

 

[DHRacer]

Originally posted by Jorvik
No they arn't. They are machines that limit your range of motion. They are no safer than using proper form on free weights. In fact, you're better off learning proper form and using free weights than just stepping into a machine and pushing weight around.

Free weights are dumbells and bars.

ok sparky

 

[Snacks]

Originally posted by Jorvik
No they arn't. They are machines that limit your range of motion. They are no safer than using proper form on free weights. In fact, you're better off learning proper form and using free weights than just stepping into a machine and pushing weight around.

Free weights are dumbells and bars.

I agree about using free weights as much as possible, but sometimes the machine is the only safe way to lift a certain area of your body.

My back is so bad that I have to use the smith machine for squats. I would rather take advantage machine limiting my range of motion then damaging my back.

 

[Nate at RIT]

Going to have to agree with Jorvik on this one. Smith machines only allow movement in a pure vertical motion, whereas if you look at someone doing a free squat properly from the side, there is some motion of the bar horizontally as well.

Of course, if your back prevents you from doing free squats, maybe the smith machine is your only option. All I know is I've never felt comfortable squatting on a smith machine, or doing anything on a smith machine before.

 

[JeffD]

If you're back's prohibiting you from barbell squatting you need to address your core issues and/or squat technique. Smith machine will only exaggerate strength imbalances in the long run, setting you up for more debilitating injuries in the long run.

 

[Snacks]

Originally posted by JeffD
If you're back's prohibiting you from barbell squatting you need to address your core issues and/or squat technique. Smith machine will only exaggerate strength imbalances in the long run, setting you up for more debilitating injuries in the long run.

I have two herniated discs in my lower back. I'm scheduled for surgery later on this spring.

 

[Grendal]

All of you have valid points. What it boils down to is what you "feel" comfortable doing and what is comfortable to do. The key with dealing with knees is not to do anything were the knee will be infront of the ankle. Thus, free weight squats and lunges. If you don't have any knee problems, your best excercises are free weight squats, lunges and leg presses. I don't recommend leg extensions for anyone, most people don't know them right, you should only do a partial leg extension. Don't allow yourself to go all the way back, or to allow your knee to break a 45 degree angle...

 

[JMAC]

I just recently had a session with a women who does sport spefic weight training plans. She has me doing free weight squats,extension, and these really cool lunges with one of those huge fitness balls it using crasy balance i really like it. However with squats i'm finding them to really hurt my knees(yes i am doing them the correct way). So i think i;m going to cut them out. Either weight training should be coming to an end soon, as i should be doing more riding and cardio training now.

 

[JeffD]

Originally posted by Grendal
All of you have valid points. What it boils down to is what you "feel" comfortable doing and what is comfortable to do. The key with dealing with knees is not to do anything were the knee will be infront of the ankle. Thus, free weight squats and lunges. If you don't have any knee problems, your best excercises are free weight squats, lunges and leg presses. I don't recommend leg extensions for anyone, most people don't know them right, you should only do a partial leg extension. Don't allow yourself to go all the way back, or to allow your knee to break a 45 degree angle...

Proper squat form does include your knees going in front of your toes. Let me illustrate something...think about this next time you go to take a dump (seriously):

Assuming you're not using your arms to grasp a fixed object like a rail on the way down, what happens? You gradually lean forward at the waist and sit back and down simultaneously. You hips go down in a backwards arc and your ankle doesn't have to bend to accomodate any knee movement.

Voila! You just squatted with minimal pressure on your knees. Problem is most trainees rely on machines that don't allow rear hip movement (smith machines) and/or trainees don't have sufficient core strength to maintain and upright torso with a bar on their backs and attempt to stay upright by shifting their weight onto their toes and letting their knees move forward. This displaces a lot of load off the back and puts it onto the knees - why most trainees naively assume squats are hard on their knees when in reality it's poor form or attemtping too much weight relative to what their core can support.

 

[Nate at RIT]

Originally posted by JeffD
Proper squat form does include your knees going in front of your toes.

I've always had the understanding that proper form included keeping the knees behind the toes. In fact most powerlifting keep their shins perpendicular to the ground. And that's whats always worked for me. When the knees come out in front of the toes, usually the person is leaning too far forward, and their heels are coming off the ground.

Reading your whole post, I'm confused as to what you meant. From the above statement with regards to the rest of your post, it sounds like something's mistyped in the above quote.

 

[Jorvik]

Your knees can be in front of your toes, just not by much, and they best not be bowing out or in. The most important thing is to have your knees pointing exactly where your toes are.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Originally posted by ito
I'll chime in here too. After knee surgery I was told to stay away from leg extensions and to probably stay away from them altogether. It can damage the knee and puts strain on it that isn't meant to be there. My physical therapist that told me this got me active in about half the time I should have been, so I'll trust her on this. Since then I've stayed away from any machine except for the leg press, which I use for single leg and to isolate my VMO when it wasn't responding.

I've started working out with weights regularily now and find that freeweights definitely have an advantage. They also happen to be alot more interesting than machines and you are able to do a number of different excercises and motions without changing machines and waiting. Once you learn proper technique and as long as you stay smart about the weight you are lifting I think you'll stay pretty safe.

The Ito

Thats what my Dr. said too after my ACL surgery, no knee extentions. However I just started doing them 4 years after my surgery. I keep the weight light so I don't put too much stress on the legiment. I just do it to try to work the muscle a bit.