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What DH bikes have Horst link?

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,034
9,691
AK
IME, horst bikes pedal pretty darned well, not as great as many bikes with SPV shocks, but then they are more sensitive and have better suspension usually than bikes with SPV shocks, then you get SPV+horst link and you can do a lot and tune it a lot of different ways.

The big negative with a horst link is the stiffness of the rear end. It's difficult to do, you need some kind of angular contact bearing, needle bearing, bushing, or double-bearing to impart stiffness to the rear end, as well as beefy linkage and chainstsays, these things drive up cost and are hard to design into the bike to function well.

As opposed to nearly everything else, the member that the rear wheel is attached to is not directly connected to the main frame. On other bikes, the wheel is usually on the swingarm, which directly connects to the frame. This doesn't inherently mean that a single-pivot bike is stiffer, BUT, there are special considerations that have to be taken into account to make a horst-link bike "stiff", and it adds weight to the bike.

I think the real trend these days is to design a solid-rear-end linkge type bike that is progressive and has a pivot that is active and pedals "decently", and then make up the difference with a romic or 5th type of shock. The turner and ventana definitely take this train of thought IMO, as well as the specialized demo9 which seems to address shock-sideloading by attaching it to a member that is directly connected to the frame. The bikes like the turner and a few others seem to give the best tradeoff...of course there's the issue of the brake, but not all horst link bikes are completely stable under braking anyway, at least according to braketherapy they aren't perfect. I think the real advantage of horst link bikes IS the active braking, but depending on the person and the application, it may not be a big issue.
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
FSR bikes are cheap to produce??????? wtf, so single pivots and faux bar are more expensive to produce??????

I dont really care if its FSR, Fauxbar, VPP,Lawwill or anything else, i just care for it to be a good bike, but thats just me.

I just like a sound design, trustworthy and reliable and i am happy with the FSR. I could also be happy with a single pivot or a fauxbar, i dont really care, as long as the bike works for me. all i know is that i ve ridden FSR and Idrives, and i liked the FSR a lot more.

Another bike to count for FSR is the FRM 125 by craftworks, several German bikes, and some old Bianchi XC bikes. Yes , FSR patent is non existent in Europe, as long as the product is not sold/manufactured in US/Taiwan.
 

Bulldog

Turbo Monkey
Sep 11, 2001
1,009
0
Wisconsin
Originally posted by math2014
Another bike to count for FSR is the FRM 125 by craftworks, several German bikes, and some old Bianchi XC bikes. Yes , FSR patent is non existent in Europe, as long as the product is not sold/manufactured in US/Taiwan.
DH bikes man, just DH bikes in the thread title. I did suggest one "FR" bike, but over 7" travel that DH/FR line gets blurry sometimes.
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
Originally posted by thaflyinfatman
Actually.....
Cheers for that, from what I've read I've always gotten the impression that M1s are perfect at everythign, nice to see that really they're just a jack-of-all-trades, good-at-none ;)
 

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
Originally posted by math2014
FSR bikes are cheap to produce??????? wtf, so single pivots and faux bar are more expensive to produce??????

I dont really care if its FSR, Fauxbar, VPP,Lawwill or anything else, i just care for it to be a good bike, but thats just me.

I just like a sound design, trustworthy and reliable and i am happy with the FSR. I could also be happy with a single pivot or a fauxbar, i dont really care, as long as the bike works for me. all i know is that i ve ridden FSR and Idrives, and i liked the FSR a lot more.

Another bike to count for FSR is the FRM 125 by craftworks, several German bikes, and some old Bianchi XC bikes. Yes , FSR patent is non existent in Europe, as long as the product is not sold/manufactured in US/Taiwan.
Yes, you don't need any special methods of production to make a part fit because it's in an awkward spot, all the pivots are in relatively accessible locations which means bearings are cheap (you can use off-the-shelf units pretty easily), the stresses in the members aren't huge (because they're reasonably short) so you don't need a full-on swingarm type beam or two like Lawwills have. "Faux bar", all else being equal (eg comparing a Kona to an equivalent linkage with FSR instead), aren't really gonna be any cheaper to produce than an FSR (bar the cost of the actual patent, which I've heard is pretty cheap per bike).

Not to say that singlepivots etc are cheaper to produce, just that FSR bikes aren't significantly more expensive.... as proven by Norco, Iron Horse etc who churn out the cheapest frames, using FSR.
 

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
Originally posted by - seb
Cheers for that, from what I've read I've always gotten the impression that M1s are perfect at everythign, nice to see that really they're just a jack-of-all-trades, good-at-none ;)
It's not the suspension that makes the M1 special, it's the geometry (IMO). They're a really nice bike, but now well and truly caught-up-to (and in some ways surpassed) by the cheaper bikes... which I would wildly speculate is why they've moved to VPP now.

They're definitely not perfect though, I got a decent ride on one a few months ago and was somewhat underwhelmed (due to pretty high expectations, it's not a bad bike as a whole).
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
Originally posted by thaflyinfatman
Yes, you don't need any special methods of production to make a part fit because it's in an awkward spot, all the pivots are in relatively accessible locations which means bearings are cheap (you can use off-the-shelf units pretty easily), the stresses in the members aren't huge (because they're reasonably short) so you don't need a full-on swingarm type beam or two like Lawwills have. "Faux bar", all else being equal (eg comparing a Kona to an equivalent linkage with FSR instead), aren't really gonna be any cheaper to produce than an FSR (bar the cost of the actual patent, which I've heard is pretty cheap per bike).

Not to say that singlepivots etc are cheaper to produce, just that FSR bikes aren't significantly more expensive.... as proven by Norco, Iron Horse etc who churn out the cheapest frames, using FSR.
Agreed and understood, more or less SP,FSR,VPP costs the same
 

ÆX

Turbo Monkey
Sep 8, 2001
4,920
17
NM
seb seb seb:rolleyes:

is your weight freekness disapeared from you being!

i will make you a deal on a frame.:D
 

Zark

Hey little girl, do you want some candy?
Oct 18, 2001
6,254
7
Reno 911
Ahh FSR's good stuff. :D

I think the big reason to own an FSR is if you don't like brake jack. For DH applications I think its pretty important, because anyone can counter brake jack and still ride fast, but its wasting energy making you more spent and beat up for the next run.

I think they pedal pretty damn well, especially with a 5th on there. My m1 is my 4th DH bike and 3/4 were FSR's and the one that wasn't taught me a lot:p

They handle neutrally without bad habits and thats why I stick with them. The M1 has been particularly good, because of the geometry. The low BB and slack angles makes it corner really nicely.

If I had to get a new DH bike tommorrow it would be a FSR of some sort. Demo probably, they are heavy and a little fugly, but they ride great and are even stiffer. The Iron Horse SGS and Azonic recoil also kick ass
 

- seb

Turbo Monkey
Apr 10, 2002
2,924
1
UK
Originally posted by bcd
seb seb seb:rolleyes:

is your weight freekness disapeared from you being!

i will make you a deal on a frame.:D
nah thanks mate, I've seen the ligth and am spending my pennies on increased holidays. A light bike is nice, but a holiday in whistler is a lot nicer. Especially for a UK monkey :)
 

math2014

wannabe curb dropper
Sep 2, 2003
1,198
0
I want to move to BC!!!
Originally posted by - seb
nah thanks mate, I've seen the ligth and am spending my pennies on increased holidays. A light bike is nice, but a holiday in whistler is a lot nicer. Especially for a UK monkey :)
Especially with the UK weather...
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Originally posted by SebringMGB
well, its fishy...... its a horst in the way the seatstays move, however, the shock actuation is single pivot. so id say you wont gain horst advantages as far as the "feel" of the shock,
There are really no "advantages" to that shock layout, at least in regards to leverage rate progression. Most of largest gains that I have been able to make with tuning the Horst link bikes actually has been in regards to lessening some of the less desirable lev rate progression traits of the conventional layout Horst like bikes.

Dave
 

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
Originally posted by dw
There are really no "advantages" to that shock layout, at least in regards to leverage rate progression. Most of largest gains that I have been able to make with tuning the Horst link bikes actually has been in regards to lessening some of the less desirable lev rate progression traits of the conventional layout Horst like bikes.

Dave
Meaning? You linearised the SGS's (relative to most FSR bikes) because they were too progressive? What's too progressive and what's not?