[ALEXIS_DH]

so, ive been wondering about this lately.

the fastest south american guys (gutierrez, estrada, jarrin, leiva, berchtold) are pretty damn fast....
and in local races, they regularly beat people like steve smith, cedric gracia, greg minaar and others (who apparently are not not sandbagging)...

our fastest local rider was within 2-3 seconds off steve smith´s pace at last panamerican championships, which is very fast, but still faaaaaaar from the fastest (gutierrez), who in turn is faaaaaaaar from gwin, hill, peat et al, at the world cups...

now, this got me thinking... how is this possible??

our fastest locals train pretty much year-round (unlike the northern hemisphere, were winters are off season), on long (10km+) natural courses. i have seen them train 3-4 times a week, in very different courses,work out, eat right. they usually come from affluent backgrounds, so they start very young and access to bikes/spares/shuttle trucks isnt really an issue.... i remember steve smith saying he trained on a single mountain while he was a kid, shuttled by his mom in the afternoons, and sam hill saying he only trains DH once a week... those are fairly modest trainning programs compared to the fastest locals, who have access to shutle drivers, and almost year-round access to long downhill runs within 2 hours of their houses.

i seriously cannot see how much more trainning can the fastest locals get (since they already ride almost full time), yet even the fastest hardly get among the top 20 at the world cup races... what makes such difference??

 

[Silver]

Maybe the world cup guys riding together raises their game a little bit extra?

 

[marshalolson]

less brakes, more fast

 

[baca262]

maybe the wc guys are real natural talents, like you can't train to become albert einstein or celine dion, you have to simply be the best.

 

[Westy]

Consider the number of people in each country participating in the sport. You are more likely to find great talent in a larger sample.

 

[trib]

The UK has dozens of race series', a very close knit racing scene and is used to having to ride in ****ty conditions year round. That level of competitions coupled with being able to ride in all kinds of adverse conditions helps to make for some real fast riders.

We've also had a steady history of fast riders, inspiring more fast riders. Peaty, Warner and JMC were super fast at DH's peak and helped bring along riders like the Athertons, beaumont, Fairclough who in turn have inspired Cunningham, Smith, Bryceland,Dale.

As an extra feather in the 'how are brits so fast' cap, we have magazines like MBUK that used to take swathes of riders on tours and riding holidays for their gimmicky articles. Whilst the writing produced was aimed at kids new to the sport it can't have hurt having young riders getting paid to go riding in Spain with their heros a couple of weeks every year and helping add to the already close DH community.

Can't speak for the rest of the world, but that's my thinking for the UK

 

[trib]

Consider the number of people in each country participating in the sport. You are more likely to find great talent in a larger sample.

Not trying to be an ass, but why is there one super fast US rider constantly in the top 10 (if not winning each race) and then only 2, maybe 3 other riders in the top 30 at WC events? The UK, Australia, NZ all seem to have smaller pools but larger amounts of talent within them.

 

[norbar]

As trib has said. The UK race scene is amazing. They have a ton of races. The French on the other hand have some neat ideas about rising new riders and overall seem very methodical about creating good riders. Not sure about the Aussies but I really think it all comes to riding with top WC pros. Look at NZ. Some time ago they had one good WC rider (retired now, can't remember, Rotorua guy) but soon after him you had an invasion of top riders.

Also comparing local tracks I've seen around here and yurp - WC tracks are very very different beasts. At least most of them.

As for the Americans do you really think they have that good results? It's the biggest bike market on the planet and a very big country. No wonder they have a few good riders.



btw. The top pros usually are going a bit slower or at least lack motivation for those events. We had the same thing with Polc comming here he told us that it's a good "warm up race" for him. Not sure if he claimed he could have went faster but he sure looked like it.

 

['size]

something tells me the top wc guys are not always going 100% at these other races - they aren't going to put their WC season in jeopardy - it's just not worth it. many of them are also testing new gear and getting familiar with changes to components and completely new bikes - gaining knowledge and familiarity is probably more of a priority than winning, especially this early in their seasons.

the entire northern hemisphere doesn't go dark and cold during the winter months. if you follow DH oriented websites and the social networks of many of the top WC racers you'll see how many are currently in or spend time in california and other warmer winter locales. for some it's for training, for others it may just be to be somewhere where outdoor physical activity doesn't have to stop.

 

[Westy]

Not trying to be an ass, but why is there one super fast US rider constantly in the top 10 (if not winning each race) and then only 2, maybe 3 other riders in the top 30 at WC events? The UK, Australia, NZ all seem to have smaller pools but larger amounts of talent within them.

I think it is safe to say that a great athlete can be successful at almost any sport. Great athletes in the US get sucked into team stick and ball sports.

 

[gemini2k]

so, ive been wondering about this lately.

the fastest south american guys (gutierrez, estrada, jarrin, leiva, berchtold) are pretty damn fast....
and in local races, they regularly beat people like steve smith, cedric gracia, greg minaar and others (who apparently are not not sandbagging)...

The WC guys aren't trying anywhere near their best in those races. They have wayyyy to much to lose to get hurt in some local race. That's not a dig on S.A., just non-WC or high profile races in general. They are probably at only ~85-90% of WC race pace. It's hard to understand just how CRAZY F-ING fast those top guys are going when they are pushing it at a WC race without seeing it live. It'd be insane to do that any more than you absolutely have to.

 

[kidwoo]

Not trying to be an ass, but why is there one super fast US rider constantly in the top 10 (if not winning each race) and then only 2, maybe 3 other riders in the top 30 at WC events? The UK, Australia, NZ all seem to have smaller pools but larger amounts of talent within them.

Because it's insanely easy to plateau off as a 'fast american' based on the available race series and current level of competition here. Only a handful of guys venture out past that.

That's a somewhat recent thing because you know it wasn't like that 10 years ago. Norbas were about as competitive as WC races and pulled in the same level of competition. Those days are gone now. You win a western/eastern/midwestern series and you get at least a little bit of sponsorship, domestic attention and you haven't had your ass handed to you so it's no so much in your face of JUST HOW FAST the WC caliber riders are until you go there. So it's hard to pick goal posts.

But being a little bit psychotic like Gwinn or Palmer helps to stand out in this country when you hit the world stage too.

But I mean even the 'slow americans' aren't really that slow. They're still beating tons of people from other countries (even *gasp*......ENGLAND!). It's just that hard to break top ten bracket where americans haven't had much of a presence until recently.


edit: and plus what westy said Most of the real athletic talent here chases multimillion dollar lifestyles that don't involve kiddy toys like a bicycle. Hell, even just look at the olympics. Americans usually have a decent presence there. Why? Because dollars go there.

 

[gemini2k]

I think it is safe to say that a great athlete can be successful at almost any sport. Great athletes in the US get sucked into team stick and ball sports.

Also very true. They are way more higher paying professional sports in the U.S. (per capita that is) than in other countries. Plus you have the whole college sports scene which draws a lot of those 18-21 year olds that might otherwise do action sports like DH. I mean, lets be honest, a full ride scholarship at a D1 school (of which there are probably thousands) is worth a lot more than 99% of "professional" DH racers are getting paid.

 

[kidwoo]

As far as the south american question.........no idea.

With the coca supply you guys have going, there's really no excuse for the poor showing at big events

 

[Westy]

Also very true. They are way more higher paying professional sports in the U.S. (per capita that is) than in other countries. Plus you have the whole college sports scene which draws a lot of those 18-21 year olds that might otherwise do action sports like DH. I mean, lets be honest, a full ride scholarship at a D1 school (of which there are probably thousands) is worth a lot more than 99% of "professional" DH racers are getting paid.

My buddy has a daughter that is clearly very athletic. He wants to get her into the sports he enjoys, clibming and cycling. My advice was to also get her into soccer, he will not have to pay for her college education.

 

[bdamschen]

I think Marcelo could consistently be a top 10 world cup threat if he had the support that some of the other top WC pros do. He trains hard and is talented.

 

[toodles]

maybe the wc guys are real natural talents, like you can't train to become albert einstein or celine dion, you have to simply be the best.

Celine Dion?

My buddy has a daughter that is clearly very athletic. He wants to get her into the sports he enjoys, clibming and cycling. My advice was to also get her into soccer, he will not have to pay for her college education.

Pics of the daughter.


If you're going to look at top riders as a percentage of population then you've got to give the kiwis some credit. I don't know why everybody thinks that other countries have magical race development or talent identification programs.

 

[norbar]

It's hard to understand just how CRAZY F-ING fast those top guys are going when they are pushing it at a WC race without seeing it live. It'd be insane to do that any more than you absolutely have to.

THAT. When I first went to Schladming without seeing you could hear why this guys need to get free wheels Not to mention that they rode on another level.


Also kidwoo - great point. I notice it even in my case. If I have no friends or people that I know of too chase I loose some motivation. I kinda lost interest in snowboard because of that since there was no SBX race scene when I was 18 around here and I just hit a plateu skillwise. I bet it's even worse when you get consistently top5 results in your country but no one is really that much faster than you and you just don't see much room for progress.


@bdamschen - do you know how many kids are out there that fit that description? Every 2-3 years we have a kid that at 16 gets top 3 elite results in the nat scene. Hell one of those kids was 10th Junior in champery and that was his 2nd or 3rd big foreign race. It's not really about support.

 

[Westy]

Pics of the daughter.

She is 8.

 

[gemini2k]

If you're going to look at top riders as a percentage of population then you've got to give the kiwis some credit. I don't know why everybody thinks that other countries have magical race development or talent identification programs.

That's because they live in MTB heaven. I remember when I lived in Christchurch I lived in the middle of the downtown, and could basically coast for 10 minutes to the bottom of the public DH trails, which had a large amount of vert. And oh ya, they could hold national caliber races on public, legal trails, in the middle of town, with 40+ foot doubles and 10 foot drops, and they are dedicated DH use trails, not bull**** multi-use hiking trails like a lot of Socal. Amazing. It's not fair.

 

[norbar]

That's because they live in MTB heaven. I remember when I lived in Christchurch I lived in the middle of the downtown, and could basically coast for 10 minutes to the bottom of the public DH trails, which had a large amount of vert. And oh ya, they could hold national caliber races on public, legal trails, in the middle of town, with 40+ foot doubles and 10 foot drops, and they are dedicated DH use trails, not bull**** multi-use hiking trails like a lot of Socal. Amazing. It's not fair.

Your post brings back the thoughts of moving to NZ. You are an evil person.

 

[kidwoo]

She is 8.

Never discount the power of a good makeup job.


Here's the real answer to the op's question that everyone seems to be missing.


EUROS: Other than the french and maybe italians.......horrible horrible sex lives.....especially the english

Imagine the kissing....

You can see the awkwardness in the bedroom in this clip from a documentary on the very subject.

With that much pent up energy, they HAVE to be fast. Only outlet.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Austrailians: They're all totally fvcking drunk. Straight belligerent. No idea they're even bouncing off trees. Won't remember a thing tomorrow.

Here's troy brosnan's dad just walking to the store to pick up some gatorade. Sam Hill and Jared Graves in the car.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Americans: We have to keep moving in the woods because these retards are EVERYWHERE

Not hauling ass in america is above all else........just not SAFE!

 

[ultraNoob]

Not sure if this applies, but my teammate and I were chatting with Eric Carter on the hill once. Of what was said, I clearly remember EC mentioning that he rides road and trail more than DH. I'm sure fitness and conditioning play a big part with overall WC DH speed.

Sure riding DH only will condition you for descending skills, but stamina, pedal cadence, leg strength, spinning technique are better trained in road and XC/AM rides.

 

[tabletop84]

I think Marcelo could consistently be a top 10 world cup threat if he had the support that some of the other top WC pros do. He trains hard and is talented.

Well I think he trains alot with gracia in andorra and I don't think he would have done so good in leogang or champery without the support of a professional race team.

He's the highest ranking south-american and I think it makes a difference when you train with a veteran like gracia and have the support and infrastructure of a team.

 

[Whoops]

My 2 cents (being a Kiwi, but a slow one)... most of the very few NZers that make it the world stage do so after spending at least 2 years in the French Alps. NZ racing is good training for 'crazy', but France is best place for altitude, slope angle, french chicks, and chairlifts.

UK racers get fast by learning in the mud, and then training in the French Alps trying to keep up with the Kiwis.

US racers dope. Flame away.

Aussie racers are bat**** crazy and drunk pretty much all the time, as pointed out above.

French racers? It's a mystery why they don't own everyone anymore. Too interested in lycra I guess.

 

[fluider]

IMO, Big money and big names in WC prohibit WC riders from gambling. Those 2-3 seconds are simply not worth of destroying the rest of their season. WC is more evolution program than some sport-entertainment competition.

 

[Mo(n)arch]

Aussie racers are bat**** crazy and drunk pretty much all the time, as pointed out above.

So that's why you can't understand anything when Hill speaks?!

 

[Wa-Aw]

Riding with other fast guys is my guess. It's the single biggest factor that's gotten me to improve.... And racing on courses that are a step above your skill level. Something about that just drives you to suck up your balls and get it done, at the end of the day you're either a much better rider and/or in the hospital.

I imagine the world cup series and have to compete against other riders on increasingly gnarly tracks and pedally tracks is what makes the top guys stay on top.

 

[norbar]

Never discount the power of a good makeup job.


Here's the real answer to the op's question that everyone seems to be missing.


EUROS: Other than the french and maybe italians.......horrible horrible sex lives.....especially the english

Imagine the kissing....

You can see the awkwardness in the bedroom in this clip from a documentary on the very subject.

With that much pent up energy, they HAVE to be fast. Only outlet.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Austrailians: They're all totally fvcking drunk. Straight belligerent. No idea they're even bouncing off trees. Won't remember a thing tomorrow.

Here's troy brosnan's dad just walking to the store to pick up some gatorade. Sam Hill and Jared Graves in the car.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Americans: We have to keep moving in the woods because these retards are EVERYWHERE

Not hauling ass in america is above all else........just not SAFE!

I remember seeing Dannys girl somewhere and I doubt he complains


@Whoops - what french chicks? Morzine is a one big gay bar. Enter any place later at night and if you spot more than 2 girls and less than 40 brits you are lucky

 

[numerik]

I remember seeing Dannys girl somewhere and I doubt he complains

Yeah, but she does

 

[slimshady]

My two cents... Here in South America there aren't enough up-to-par to WC tracks. Most of them are just two to three minutes long. How many events like Valpo Cerro Abajo or the Brazilian Downtown could you find year-round down here? Three, maybe four? How long are those tracks open before and after the race? Most of the tracks are semi-permanent, and not precisely well-maintained.

- Most of the local scene is built/maintained by the local racers. But how many of those local racers have seen a WC track in their lives?

- Being up to par with guys who basically pay just a quarter to half the price for each bike and/or part (and have plenty of stuff to choose from) isn't exactly a motivation for any S.A. guy either. We have to deal with unresponsive, irresponsible dealers who consistently bring new products down here, but won't import any replacement parts. Unless you have a major brand sponsorship (practically non-existent), or a VERY fat wallet it's a long way to the top.

- Many times I've seen topics here in the Monkey referring how the number of regional championships is decreasing in US and Europe. Here in Argentina, the Open Shimano (Argentinean DH/XC Championship, the only one where you can score some UCI points) has just four races, distributed over 4000 miles of territory. There are other local races, but their tracks are too short and simple, designed so they can be completed with a front suspension bike. They are just races by enthusiasts for enthusiasts, and I hardly doubt any World Champion could raise form such scene.

As a side note, last week a similar topic was discussed in a Chilean forum. The local guys were comparing their scene to the one in my country (Argentina). From the comments, part of the blame went to the guys from the past generation: they don't want to pass their knowledge to the newbies, since they are still active and competing against those who might learn from them.

 

[manhattanprjkt83]

vegemite and fear of drop bears make the aussies fast.

 

[Mo(n)arch]

I remember seeing Dannys girl somewhere and I doubt he complains

Ratboy's girlfriend looks like alot of fun too

Riding with other fast guys is my guess. It's the single biggest factor that's gotten me to improve.... And racing on courses that are a step above your skill level. Something about that just drives you to suck up your balls and get it done, at the end of the day you're either a much better rider and/or in the hospital.

Yeah I remember the days when I rode scared. Trying to overcome that fear and to go fast on these type of tracks makes you so much more confident on other tracks. Basically your comfort zone raises and you become faster overall.
For me the fastest/best riders in every sport are that good, because they are able to ride in their comfort zone even in the gnarliest conditions, during the toughest races.
Best example: Aaron Gwin.
Or in an other sport: Travis Rice. He wasn't injured for over ten years. And we know what he does on his snowboard.

 

[jnooth]

I wonder the same thing about those crazy guys you see hang with sam and troy at that race in Indonesia. Popo and pornomo.

I agree that no top world cup racer will give that 110% world cup pace at just any local race. to much on the line to chance getting hurt. also when locals see big "stars" show up at their local track they tend to do crazy things and sometimes they can pull it off. who wouldnt hang it out there for that one shot to beat sam hill on your local track? for them its their shot to get recognized as the local that showed up the big guys. for the big names they are there most likely because their sponsors want them to show up.

 

[kickstand]

My buddy has a daughter that is clearly very athletic. He wants to get her into the sports he enjoys, clibming and cycling. My advice was to also get her into soccer, he will not have to pay for her college education.

ding ding ding.

My son is young, and I want him to enjoy what he wants to enjoy, but he is a fantastic wrestler, he's in his second season, last year he won 1 match.

This year he has only lost 3 and has not wrestled in a single tournament where he placed lower than third. If he enjoys it long enough I am hoping it will pay for his college education, but that's up to him. He also enjoys snowboarding, bmx racing, and riding DH. so we'll see.

 

['size]

US racers dope. Flame away.

 

[stiksandstones]

Someone mentioned, in regards to americans, that our athletes chase sports with money. Not so the case in bmx where currently in the UCI world rankings we have 5 americans in the top 20, and an american leading (connor fields), france trails with 3 guys in the top 20, australia has 3 and so on. In the women's ranking, there are 3 USA women in the top 10 with an american also leading (Haro/TLD Brooke Crain).

That being said, I bet all those athletes combined (top 10 women and top 20 men) do not make the salary of the top 5 MTB world cup men.

Point of the story is, BMX is alive and well in USA, we have thousands of kids in this country chasing pro dreams, and it ain't about the money.

 

[-BB-]

Yeah, but they DO have x-games heros on BMX to emulate. Maybe they don't have a local pipe or "street" course, but they can ride trails out back in the woods, hone skills, and have mom and dad take them to the locak track.

We don't get that much publicity.... And a ton of the good US DH'rs are former BMX'rs.

What was my point again?

 

[norbar]

Not to mention BMX racing is not very popular outside of the states. I know the French have some programs but that's all. I'm yet to meet a living bmx racer in Poland. I know some people who own racing bikes but none of them really race.

 

[jonKranked]

BMX is also in the olympics.