I just got my 135mm rear 32 hole ringle abbah hub in the mail to go with my dual duty rim. What spokes and nipples should I use? It is going on my 05 demo 8. I am going to be riding at n* and whistler. I weigh 130ish and still growing. I would like to keep the wheel strong and light, and not too expensive.
what spokes and nipples?
- Thread starter max123
- Start date
DT Competition spokes. They come with Alloy nipples so you are going to want to order some brass nipples.
thats actually opposite, they come with brass, youll want the alloy, dont run DB for the rear though. stick with the DT comp 14 guage. The weight savings with going to DB for the rear wheel isnt worth the lower strength, the comp 14 guage will feel better and last longer. remember you want to lose more weight to the outside of the wheel, and DB spokes just dont give you that big difference in the feel. 14/15 db spokes up front are ok, but they just dont hold up on teh rear
sort of. If you buy the silver DT Comps you get Brass. The black DT Comps come with Alloy.
Double butted are just as strong as straight guage. The failure does not occur in the center of the spoke. It is just a littleharder to prevent wind up.
Brass nipples are a requirement for a wheel to stay be maintained. You can not get enough tension with Alloy and you surely can not maintain it longer term since alloy nipples round too easily. That is unless you can get spline drives still from some top secret source.
Whatever they say but you better hurry since opening day is this Friday. See ya there.
Alloy nipples like to pop their heads off after a while. Stick with brass. The weight savings just isn't worth the hassle. It can be a real weekend ender.
Double butted spokes are more durable since the thinner midsection is more elastic and takes the strain off the threads and shoulder.
That being said, I build all my DH wheels with straight gauge and brass nips. I've never had a spoke failure from fatigue. Straight gauge are half the price of DB.
Mike
Double butted spokes are more durable since the thinner midsection is more elastic and takes the strain off the threads and shoulder.
That being said, I build all my DH wheels with straight gauge and brass nips. I've never had a spoke failure from fatigue. Straight gauge are half the price of DB.
Mike
Yeah, rounding out alloy nipples definitely isn't an issue if you use a good spoke key - but the aforementioned issue with heads breaking off is a very real one. They just fatigue and start popping away one by one over time I found, and you'd be kidding yourself if you thought they were a good long term option for DH.
They're probably not too bad for a front wheel, but definitely not for a rear. My advice would be stick with brass, and feel free to save the weight elsewhere (spokes, hubs, and rims - all within reason).
They're probably not too bad for a front wheel, but definitely not for a rear. My advice would be stick with brass, and feel free to save the weight elsewhere (spokes, hubs, and rims - all within reason).
Udi
What nipple wrench are you using? I have a full set of Park wrenchs. However, they only grip on 3 sides. I understand there is a wrench that grips on 3.5 sides.
What nipple wrench are you using? I have a full set of Park wrenchs. However, they only grip on 3 sides. I understand there is a wrench that grips on 3.5 sides.
I'll just say this.
last time I had a thread almost exactly like this...it was locked because of the over use of the word "nipple"
congrats on yours still exsisting!
last time I had a thread almost exactly like this...it was locked because of the over use of the word "nipple"
congrats on yours still exsisting!
Yeah i've (now) got the four sided park key, which like you said grips 3.5 sides of the nipple. Works great, but it's kinda annoying as it gets stuck on the nipple sometimes and takes a bit of force to pull off.
But honestly, I didn't have a problem with rounding them even with a normal key as long as it was the correct size. The problem I did have was each time I went to tension it, i'd catch 2-3 nipples that had cracked at the head - and I broke 5-10 of them while riding (over a season or so).
Well, i have about 300 different spoke boxes in stock, All dt, none with alloy nipples all makes colors shapes and sizes. As far as the alloy nipple rounding, Use a good tool, as far as not getting enough tension when you first build it????? Learn how to build, not to be an Ass or anything but i have built more than a fair share of wheels, for BMX Road FR and DH, most all with alloy nipples, my own included. My DH wheels are now two and a half years old with about 1500 miles on them, and i havent actually needed to true themmore than after my first 100 miles, my last set of road wheels had about 2k on them with alloy nipples, same thing tured them after about 100 miles stayed straight ever since. Never once have i not been able to get enough tension on a wheel using alloy Nipples. Unless your using those DT Spokelock crap things they had for a while
Only reason you wont be able to get enough tension is your not Lubricating your spokes and Nipples before you build your wheel, I know this has been a Huge debate here before, but if you want your wheel right, Lube them up prior to Building, some people use triflow, i dont like it myself, you need to go through afterwords with some Rubbing Alcohol to wash it out after words. Personally i like to lube them up with some Phill wood, works great and no need to clean it out afterwords. But also dont forget your spoke freeze once your done building.
I hope i dont upset anyone with this little rant, but i am a 240 lb rider, and up till last october i was a 315lb rider, And i can tell you that if your alloy nipples are popping off, they were probably too tight to begin with, i dont build a wheel without a tension guage.
P.S. you dont always tighten a spoke to get a wheel true
Everything you said is spot on. I could not have said it better myself. I really can't add much on spokes and nipples other than I like Wheelsmith and Sapim DB spokes better than DT's. As for spoke wrenches, I use a regular park tools wrench then swap to the 4 sides for my final tensioning. If you use a park tools 4 sided wrench you will have to cut about a 1/2" gap in the top of the handle to fit it on and off your nipples easily. If I were going to buy one now I would probably try the Pedros or super expensive DT one. But absolutely under no circumstances should you ever purchase a Pedros tuing stand. Biggest piece of ****e out there.
My three favorite tools.
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=SW-0
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=SW-1
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=SW-2
those count as one BTW
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=TS-2
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=TM-1
And dont forget this one when your building wheels,always double check
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=WAG-3
And if your building up some of those crazy shimano 16 spoke wheels you might need this one, that or you might be bringing a wheel back from the dead
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=SW-14
And of coarse Mavic has to throw there in too the mix
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=SW-13
Also my fovorite nipple to use, 16mm version for my own use
http://www.dtswiss.com/index.asp?fuseaction=nipples.bikedetail&id=6
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=SW-0
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=SW-1
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=SW-2
those count as one BTW
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=TS-2
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=TM-1
And dont forget this one when your building wheels,always double check
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=WAG-3
And if your building up some of those crazy shimano 16 spoke wheels you might need this one, that or you might be bringing a wheel back from the dead
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=SW-14
And of coarse Mavic has to throw there in too the mix
http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=SW-13
Also my fovorite nipple to use, 16mm version for my own use
http://www.dtswiss.com/index.asp?fuseaction=nipples.bikedetail&id=6
I tried those Pro heads and honestly couldn't tell the difference from any other nipples I have used in the past. What rims are you building with that you prefer 16mm nipples? For a weight weenie like me, 16mm is out of the question.
DirtyMike
I have all of the exact same tools that you have including the tension meter. They work great for building. I typically run 140-150 KgF on the DH wheels I build. I have put my tension meter on some brand new wheels built by some supposed experts and it's interesting how uneven the build is.
I build about 30-40 a year between supporting our team and the few I sell to people that are nice. I have a day job, bike building / maintance is just something I do since I can't stand to see people wasting money buying new stuff when their existing parts can be repaired.
Anyway, yes I do lube the nipples. That is a very critical point.
The reason I do not recomend alloy nipples to other people is that most do not have the patience to build with them. The same for Revolution spokes. Both are great, however it increases the required attention to detail. Most beginner wheel builders are not going to have the technique perfect on the first time. I would hate for them to get discouraged.
In addition, DH puts wheels into very abusive situations that failures can happen no matter how good the build is. That is when the brass nipples come in handy. When you need to try to fix a wheel that has a major ding good enough that someone can ride out the weekend until they have the cash for a new rim.
To that point, rim selection has a big impact on long term durability. If someone wants a bomb proof wheel requiring little to no maintance and they don't care about weight, I recomend Mag30's. Those rims are so laterally stiff that even with spokes missing you can complete a run. I personally had 8 spokes blown out on a mag30 wheel when I jammed a derailuer through the wheel and I was able to ride it to the bottom of the hill. I replaced the spokes and the wheel was perfect again.
For the weight concious, I recomend Sun Singletracks. They can be had for $20-30 if you look hard enough and they are a real world weight of 200-250g lighter than Mag30s. Mavic rims are good too, however they are so expensive and don't seem to last any longer.
Anyway, I'll repeat it again. I think people just starting to build wheels and maintaining their own wheels should go with Brass. It is just easier and only slightly heavier.
I have all of the exact same tools that you have including the tension meter. They work great for building. I typically run 140-150 KgF on the DH wheels I build. I have put my tension meter on some brand new wheels built by some supposed experts and it's interesting how uneven the build is.
I build about 30-40 a year between supporting our team and the few I sell to people that are nice. I have a day job, bike building / maintance is just something I do since I can't stand to see people wasting money buying new stuff when their existing parts can be repaired.
Anyway, yes I do lube the nipples. That is a very critical point.
The reason I do not recomend alloy nipples to other people is that most do not have the patience to build with them. The same for Revolution spokes. Both are great, however it increases the required attention to detail. Most beginner wheel builders are not going to have the technique perfect on the first time. I would hate for them to get discouraged.
In addition, DH puts wheels into very abusive situations that failures can happen no matter how good the build is. That is when the brass nipples come in handy. When you need to try to fix a wheel that has a major ding good enough that someone can ride out the weekend until they have the cash for a new rim.
To that point, rim selection has a big impact on long term durability. If someone wants a bomb proof wheel requiring little to no maintance and they don't care about weight, I recomend Mag30's. Those rims are so laterally stiff that even with spokes missing you can complete a run. I personally had 8 spokes blown out on a mag30 wheel when I jammed a derailuer through the wheel and I was able to ride it to the bottom of the hill. I replaced the spokes and the wheel was perfect again.
For the weight concious, I recomend Sun Singletracks. They can be had for $20-30 if you look hard enough and they are a real world weight of 200-250g lighter than Mag30s. Mavic rims are good too, however they are so expensive and don't seem to last any longer.
Anyway, I'll repeat it again. I think people just starting to build wheels and maintaining their own wheels should go with Brass. It is just easier and only slightly heavier.
You can get pro heads in 12mm too.
I am confused though why DirtyMike recomended alloy nipples when he runs 16mm Pro Heads that are brass.
I am confused though why DirtyMike recomended alloy nipples when he runs 16mm Pro Heads that are brass.
does anyone use this:
That costs two arms a leg and a nut sack. I rock a modified Park tools 4 sided wrench. I think the pedros is the best bang for the buck.
does anyone use this:
One of my mates does. He swears by it. But you would to, if you paid $100 for it.does anyone use this:
Ha slap me for not paying attention, you can order the Pro heads in alloy, reason i like the 16mm is that they are just easier to work with on some of the deeper channeled wheels. Used the 16mm alloy on my singletracks i buuilt for my dh rig, and also used them when i relaced my stock alex wheels that came on my 1200. I did not use the 16 mm when i built the open pro/ultegras i have now though. for the same reason mentioned above, i was being a bit of a weight weenie.
As far as the pretty bunny lookin tool, too expensive. In my Exp, i have seen that alloy nipples may crack, but brass can plain pull the threads through. I cant personally see any difference in using the brass verse alloy during the build. i use both all the time, and they build up the same each time.
Like i said earlier though, i dont want to be an asshole or such, a bottom line to remember that i forget and have to remind myself, is that somethings/methods work better for some and not others. I can lace a wheel in a multitude of ways, crows foot, raqdial 1,2,3,4,5x, radial/3x mix on the same side. wheel building is an art that in the long run must be learned over time. Truth be said a novice wheel builder is going to have a hard time with brass or alloy nipples. Also need to find which style fits you better as well, IE. Do you put all 32 spokes in teh hub then start lacing? or do you put them in one at a time.
P.S. 5x wheel are a PITA. normally i recomend a straight forward 3x wheel
As far as the pretty bunny lookin tool, too expensive. In my Exp, i have seen that alloy nipples may crack, but brass can plain pull the threads through. I cant personally see any difference in using the brass verse alloy during the build. i use both all the time, and they build up the same each time.
Like i said earlier though, i dont want to be an asshole or such, a bottom line to remember that i forget and have to remind myself, is that somethings/methods work better for some and not others. I can lace a wheel in a multitude of ways, crows foot, raqdial 1,2,3,4,5x, radial/3x mix on the same side. wheel building is an art that in the long run must be learned over time. Truth be said a novice wheel builder is going to have a hard time with brass or alloy nipples. Also need to find which style fits you better as well, IE. Do you put all 32 spokes in teh hub then start lacing? or do you put them in one at a time.
P.S. 5x wheel are a PITA. normally i recomend a straight forward 3x wheel
Here's the $8 version...does anyone use this:
Grips 3 corners as the DT tool. Never a rounded nipple.
Mike
Ive done quite a bit of custom thread and fastener design and contacting on sides is a bit of a misnomer, wrenches contact on the corners. The tighter the wrench fit the greater the contact area making it look like you are contacting a flat, but in actuality its just a larger area of the corner. A good wrench can make all the difference in the world. 4 sided Tools like the DT cut contact stresses in 1/2 making it less likely to round off your nipple. The wrench pictured appears only to contact on 2 sides. Just think about using a crescent wrench v/s a socket or box end wrench. Thats the kind of difference you get with a 4 sided v/s 2. The $100 is still frigging outrageous, hence why I went the el chipo route.
Here's the $8 version...
Grips 3 corners as the DT tool. Never a rounded nipple.
Mike
The Spokey is "four sided" as you call it. You have to push it down on the nipple. The picture is misleading because you can't see the metal insert with the "keyhole" slot in it.