[mudpup]

Doing Wheels...The Final Step

I've always taken my wheels to others for truing and rebuilds. I turn a wrench on everything else on the bike, so I think its time to take the plunge and learn about wheels, truing, and building. As far as tools are concerned, I am set for everything but wheels.

Can anyone recommend some good books on the subject? I would like something technical, as well as a basic how-to. If you think more than one book would be better, that's fine. I know of The Bicycle Wheel, but, what about others? Do you use a spoke tensionmeter?

I know a lot of you are partial to the Park Pro Stand as well. How about the Master Stand? How about other makes and models? Have any of you used the Hoadley True products at all as add-ons to the TS-2 from Park?

If any of you out there are wheel meisters could you pass on some advice?

TIA,
MP

 

[spokedwheel]

Oh boy..the can of worms has been opened.


Jobst's book "The Bicycle Wheel", offers what I thought to be a view from an engineers perspective which since I'm not an engineer I found some interest in reading it. While "The Art of Wheel Building", by Gerd Schraner provides more of a practical theory. I suggest you check out both books if you really want to learn some stuff about wheels.

For tools I like to use the park pro stand, I think it works great, it's durable and spare parts are easy to get when necessary. I think a good stand is a must for anyone who wants to build or even just true wheels on a frequent basis. Having a nice solid stands makes it so much more enjoyable, and like I said it will last a long time(I have over 8+ years and have spun MANY wheels on my current stand).

I also really like the DT pro spoke wrench although the standard park wrench works great, I personally found when I started having arthritis type pain in my hands/wrist when doing a large quantity run of wheels, the DT wrench helped alleviate a lot of the pain.

I also do use one of the DT tensio's when producing a high quality wheel I think it's imperative for the spokes to be within 5-10% of each others tension, now that excludes comparing drive & non-drive. You can get fairly close to this by using the pluck method if you have a good ear for sound or I think I've seen stuff where velomax is using pitch gauges to determine tension. For standard shop work where the customer is paying $35 per wheel they get a ear/finger determined tension, I'm only slotted 30-45 minutes per wheel and checking each spoke with the tensio takes too much time. The tensio comes out for the big money $75-$150 gigs, or the buddy deal.

Couple other ramblings/tips...

get the wheel true and round before bringing it up to a higher tension. It's a lot easier for you and better for the wheel. Slowly layer on the tension, using 1/4-1/2 turns when your starting out.

Don't forget to stress relieve.

Lube those rim eyelets & nipples.

Do your spoke measurements twice or possibly three times when starting.

Build a bunch of wheels for yourself and ride the hell out of them.

Good luck, wheelbuilding is awsome.

 

[mudpup]

SW,
Thanks for the info. I saw Shraner's book on the United Bicycle Institute website and was curious as to whether it was worth buying. I will pick up that and Jobst's book. I like to have a book to reference away from the computer.

http://www.omnipost.com/hoadley-true/ is the site for some add-on products for the Park TS-2 truing stand, It includes a dishing tool that dishes while in the stand. I wasn't sure if this was a desirable thing or not. From what I have read elsewhere you have to dish the wheel off the stand with the Park dishing tool?

I will bite the bullet and get the basic Park TS-2 stand at first, along with some spoke wrenches. That is probably the easiest way to start and then I can see if these other products are worth spending the cash on. I appreciate the feedback on the DT tools.

I also posted this in the Mechanic forum. I usually don't cross post, but, it appears that this area gets a bit more traffic.

I will get the books and read through them. I have read Sheldon Brown's website and checked out some of the links there also.

 

[riderx]

I highly recommend "The Art of Wheel Building" by Gerd Schraner. It's the only book I've ever needed.

Other quick thoughts as recommended in the book:
-when building a dished wheel, pull the wheel to the short spoke side first to get the proper tension (better description in the book)

-Always lube the spoke threads

-Always stress relieve and retension/retrue several times.

Read the book front to back first, before you even get your tools out. Then get everything you need in front of you and take your time. Don't rush the job and be patient.

Good luck!

 

[spokedwheel]

All those gauges look pretty trick, I wouldn't worry about them right now though. Although if you got some dough, go for it and let me know how they work, that setup would be cheaper than the TS-3.

Just a side note, there is a new wrenchforce truing stand on the way or just released that has led indicators which indicate the hot spots on a wheel via different colors, anyone seen this in person yet? The trek rep was playing it up really hard the other day. I'm pretty skeptical though.

The park WAG-1 dishing tool works fine with the wheel on the stand I've found. I use a WAG-3 at the races, that one is harder to use on the stand, I usually have to take the wheel off for that one.

Originally posted by mudpup
SW,
Thanks for the info. I saw Shraner's book on the United Bicycle Institute website and was curious as to whether it was worth buying. I will pick up that and Jobst's book. I like to have a book to reference away from the computer.

http://www.omnipost.com/hoadley-true/ is the site for some add-on products for the Park TS-2 truing stand, It includes a dishing tool that dishes while in the stand. I wasn't sure if this was a desirable thing or not. From what I have read elsewhere you have to dish the wheel off the stand with the Park dishing tool?

I will bite the bullet and get the basic Park TS-2 stand at first, along with some spoke wrenches. That is probably the easiest way to start and then I can see if these other products are worth spending the cash on. I appreciate the feedback on the DT tools.

I also posted this in the Mechanic forum. I usually don't cross post, but, it appears that this area gets a bit more traffic.

I will get the books and read through them. I have read Sheldon Brown's website and checked out some of the links there also.

 

[mudpup]

More good info. Thanks a bundle sw and rx.

SW,
On that new LED based truing stand - I design control computers for a living and I would definitely want to see the granularity/range of each LED's indication of how far "out of true" something is. A digital readout with a small one line LCD may be far better instead of LEDs. In other words, each LED will have a range associated with it. If that range is acceptable to a master wheelbuilder, it would probably be good enough for me. I don't know the tolerances of various rims and other components. Hopefully, they designed the LED based system with that slop in mind.

If they are using an embedded microcontroller with at least an 8 bit a/d converter that would give the capability of 256 steps of accuracy/range. The firmware to control the lcd instead of LEDs would be pretty easy and wouldn't take up much more ROM space than the LED control code does. If you have any technical specs on the led readouts and their ranges let us know.

Instead of this kind of design, a few inexpensive dial indicators would probably be just as cost effective. Most of the damned things are made in china now anyway and can be had for less than $20 each these days.

 

[spokedwheel]

Those are some good points as to how much distance each light refers to, I believe there was like 3-4 lights on each side. I would prefer dial indicators myself, more "real". All I know about it is what the rep spewed out, the Trek dealer catalog has nothing. Maybe I'll give the tech guy a call tomorrow. One of the things that kind of interests me, is that snap-on builds alot of the wrenchforce products, and I'm a huge snap-on fan. I wonder if they did any of the production of this new stand?

oh another random thought when it comes to wheelbuilding. Use a spoke calculator that doesn't round off for you, and when ordering spokes DT's run about 1mm shorter. EX: A 260 DT measures out more like a 259.

Originally posted by mudpup

SW,
On that new LED based truing stand - I design control computers for a living and I would definitely want to see the granularity/range of each LED's indication of how far "out of true" something is. A digital readout with a small one line LCD may be far better instead of LEDs. In other words, each LED will have a range associated with it. If that range is acceptable to a master wheelbuilder, it would probably be good enough for me. I don't know the tolerances of various rims and other components. Hopefully, they designed the LED based system with that slop in mind.

If they are using an embedded microcontroller with at least an 8 bit a/d converter that would give the capability of 256 steps of accuracy/range. The firmware to control the lcd instead of LEDs would be pretty easy and wouldn't take up much more ROM space than the LED control code does. If you have any technical specs on the led readouts and their ranges let us know.

Instead of this kind of design, a few inexpensive dial indicators would probably be just as cost effective. Most of the damned things are made in china now anyway and can be had for less than $20 each these days.

 

[Shibby]

Related spoke question:

Does using spokes 2-3mm longer than the calculated length improve the strength of the nipple/spoke interface? I would think that the greater number of contacting threads would, but does anyone know? Of course this only applies to doublewall rims...

 

[mudpup]

SW,
Thanks for the heads-up on DT spokes.

I have always liked SnapOn tools myself. I always considered WrenchForce tools to be the affordable versions

Another thought on those LEDs for the truing stand. What they may have done is have a blink function on the center led to indicate how close you are to being "true". Once again, the ranges of the leds would be all important. Another plus would be the capability to calibrate the led indicators for your own ranges. That would be a major plus for the tool.

Oh yeah, I called up United Bicycle Supply on those Hoadley True add ons for the TS-2. Once they found out I wasn't a bike shop they got rid of me. I did find out before they did that the Hoadley True dishing tool was $85.00 to bike shops from them. I wasn't able to get the pricing for the lateral and radial attachments, or for the alloy base. Really, the way to go if you bought those tools is to just get add ons without the dial indicators. More than likely they are made in China anyway and you could buy a good dial indicator and switch it between the various tools.

 

[spokedwheel]

Originally posted by Shibby
Related spoke question:

Does using spokes 2-3mm longer than the calculated length improve the strength of the nipple/spoke interface? I would think that the greater number of contacting threads would, but does anyone know? Of course this only applies to doublewall rims...

No a proper spokelength calculation will give you the length of a spoke that when brought to tension will come right to the end of the nipple. Actually the spoke end should be right at the base of the slot in the nipple. by adding 2-3mm you would have extra spoke sticking out and alot of the nipple not even engaging the threads on the lower part of the spoke.

 

[mudpup]

If anyone is interested in the books that were mentioned, I found Brandt's book for $14.00 here:

http://www.cambriabike.com/misc/books.htm


I found Shraner's book at amazon for $15.37:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964983532/qid=1020445854/104-4946451-4460746

Amazon was out of stock on Brandt's book for 3-5 weeks and was selling it for $24.99.

 

[Mtn Pete]

Just rember that any hops in the wheel need to be removed before tension is applied to the wheel. Use spoke prep or loc-tite on the treads and white lightning on the nipple eylet interface. Don;t rush you will regret it in the long run.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Necrobump.

I've been considering picking up some tools to true up/build some wheels with the little bit of the cash I have left over from getting hit last time. Even though my LBS almost never charges me for a true, I'm a big believer in if I have to borrow/pay someone more than three times to do something, I need to know how to do it myself. This thread seems very informative, but we have invaded half a dozen countries and gone through multiple recessions since the last post. I wonder how much of this thread remains relevant and true, and what would anybody add or change in the decade that has passed?

 

[jonKranked]

Necrobump.

I've been considering picking up some tools to true up/build some wheels with the little bit of the cash I have left over from getting hit last time. Even though my LBS almost never charges me for a true, I'm a big believer in if I have to borrow/pay someone more than three times to do something, I need to know how to do it myself. This thread seems very informative, but we have invaded half a dozen countries and gone through multiple recessions since the last post. I wonder how much of this thread remains relevant and true, and what would anybody add or change in the decade that has passed?

haven't read the thread. here's my point oh two:

• truing stand. get as good as one as you are willing to pay for (i have a park ts2.2)
• spoke wrenches. get good ones
• nipple starters are nice, but not necessary
• spoke prep. sure you can buy bike industry stuff, but a gallon of linseed oil is $20 and will last longer than you're building wheels.
• spoke tensioner. IMO optional. sure its nice, but i've built plenty of wheels without one.

 

[jstuhlman]

when you get it close you can ping the spokes with your fingers and do it by ear...

 

[jonKranked]

when you get it close you can ping the spokes with your fingers and do it by ear...

or just ham fist it.

 

[Nick]

I bet I've built maybe 2 dozen sets of wheels over the years.

I've done most by hand with great results. Then got a tension gizmo, its shocking how UN-calibrated a human being is. If your new at building wheels and you can borrow a spoke tension meter its worth it, in my opinion. It will be stronger, it will likely stay true longer.

Also I use anti seize on threads because I've always had it around in the garage.

 

[jonKranked]

I've done most by hand with great results. Then got a tension gizmo, its shocking how UN-calibrated a human being is. If your new at building wheels and you can borrow a spoke tension meter its worth it, in my opinion. It will be stronger, it will likely stay true longer.

learn how much force it takes to strip the threads on a spoke/nipple, then do a little less

 

[Jm_]

Necrobump.

I've been considering picking up some tools to true up/build some wheels with the little bit of the cash I have left over from getting hit last time. Even though my LBS almost never charges me for a true, I'm a big believer in if I have to borrow/pay someone more than three times to do something, I need to know how to do it myself. This thread seems very informative, but we have invaded half a dozen countries and gone through multiple recessions since the last post. I wonder how much of this thread remains relevant and true, and what would anybody add or change in the decade that has passed?

Carbon wheels see a significant drop in tension when you mount and air up a tire. Make sure to do final truing with the tire installed and aired up. Otherwise, the tension will be unsafe IME. Also, galvanic corrosion is real, if building with carbon and aluminum nipples, you need to do something about it.

 

[Jm_]

I bet I've built maybe 2 dozen sets of wheels over the years.

I've done most by hand with great results. Then got a tension gizmo, its shocking how UN-calibrated a human being is. If your new at building wheels and you can borrow a spoke tension meter its worth it, in my opinion. It will be stronger, it will likely stay true longer.

Also I use anti size on threads because I've always had it around in the garage.

Tension meters can be a rabbit hole: https://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/crazy-high-spoke-tension-tension-meter-off-981573.html

I've never used one.

 

[jonKranked]

Carbon wheels see a significant drop in tension when you mount and air up a tire. Make sure to do final truing with the tire installed and aired up. Otherwise, the tension will be unsafe IME. Also, galvanic corrosion is real, if building with carbon and aluminum nipples, you need to do something about it.

#1 - you need to tension release (and retrue) *all* wheels prior to riding. (disclaimer here: i've never built carbon wheels on my own <yet> but i don't doubt its more important / significant on them)

#2 - thou shall not used aluminum nipples

 

[Jm_]

#1 - you need to tension release (and retrue) *all* wheels prior to riding. (disclaimer here: i've never built carbon wheels on my own <yet> but i don't doubt its more important / significant on them)

#2 - thou shall not used aluminum nipples

Yeah, I'm not so sure about 1. I think this is more of a myth from poorly built machine wheels. Apart from just grabbing the spokes to squeeze and check tension, I don't see what else you have to do? If you are properly lubricating the spoke/nipples, what exactly are you doing here? Yes, I know the theory, but I've never seen it working. Yes, you should look at truing after the first ride, but all of my recent experience (with the exception of one aluminum wheel) is set-and-forget. Hell even that aluminum one was pretty close to this due to the newer stiffer alu rims. I'm thinking some of this came from the old flexy aluminum wheels and still getting a bit of tension drop with the tires mounted, but not nearly as much. But the carbon wheels are so stiff that they just don't go out of true unless something is significantly wrong. I start getting OCD trying to take out slight lateral deflection and hop that I would never waste my time with on an aluminum wheel. And when it's all good, tensioned and straight, I typically don't ever have to touch it again. Yes, I've busted a couple nipples over the years, not super common, but upon putting a new nipple/spoke in there and tensioning back up to what it was, it's amazing, I don't have to "true" the wheel, everything is back perfect. It's been much nicer to build wheels with CF rims...except that the tire-mounting step is extremely important and that tension drop so dramatic that you can easily be at unsafe-tension levels if you didn't do it. A few of the crustier wheelbuilders denied this over and over for a while until they were set straight by the CF builders. I'm thinking this tension drop is so significant it basically precludes any extra "tension release" step.

Building with aluminum nipples is kind of a crap shoot with carbon. If you figure on replacing them every couple years, not a big deal, but that's a lot of work obviously. Sometimes you get lucky in a dry climate with a good build and no significant corrosion (good anodizing, carbon coat, etc.), but if you aren't keen to do this every other year, yes, go with brass by all means.

 

[jstuhlman]

buddy is one of the best wheelbuilders in the area; after getting shit tight he'd always put each end of the hub on the ground and work his way around the wheel pressing down hard on opposite sides of the rim. looked hilarious. then re-checks tension. i guess this is what he was doing. his wheels are bombproof and only come out of true with the greatest of fuckery. so i don't question it.

 

[Jm_]

My biggest self critique for wheel-building is not getting long enough spokes. It's happened a few times in the past and it's better to be 1 or 2mm longer, always, than shorter. Use some damn nipple washers if you have to, but do not ever build with spokes too short. Unfortunately, sometimes you don't realize until you get the thing all together and start increasing tension. When it's all said and done and you can still see spoke threads...that is bad.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Carbon wheels see a significant drop in tension when you mount and air up a tire. Make sure to do final truing with the tire installed and aired up. Otherwise, the tension will be unsafe IME. Also, galvanic corrosion is real, if building with carbon and aluminum nipples, you need to do something about it.

I didn't know about the carbon/galvanic corrosion link...

 

[jonKranked]

Yeah, I'm not so sure about 1. I think this is more of a myth from poorly built machine wheels. Apart from just grabbing the spokes to squeeze and check tension, I don't see what else you have to do? If you are properly lubricating the spoke/nipples, what exactly are you doing here? Yes, I know the theory, but I've never seen it working. Yes, you should look at truing after the first ride, but all of my recent experience (with the exception of one aluminum wheel) is set-and-forget. Hell even that aluminum one was pretty close to this due to the newer stiffer alu rims. I'm thinking some of this came from the old flexy aluminum wheels and still getting a bit of tension drop with the tires mounted, but not nearly as much. But the carbon wheels are so stiff that they just don't go out of true unless something is significantly wrong. I start getting OCD trying to take out slight lateral deflection and hop that I would never waste my time with on an aluminum wheel. And when it's all good, tensioned and straight, I typically don't ever have to touch it again. Yes, I've busted a couple nipples over the years, not super common, but upon putting a new nipple/spoke in there and tensioning back up to what it was, it's amazing, I don't have to "true" the wheel, everything is back perfect. It's been much nicer to build wheels with CF rims...except that the tire-mounting step is extremely important and that tension drop so dramatic that you can easily be at unsafe-tension levels if you didn't do it. A few of the crustier wheelbuilders denied this over and over for a while until they were set straight by the CF builders. I'm thinking this tension drop is so significant it basically precludes any extra "tension release" step.

Building with aluminum nipples is kind of a crap shoot with carbon. If you figure on replacing them every couple years, not a big deal, but that's a lot of work obviously. Sometimes you get lucky in a dry climate with a good build and no significant corrosion (good anodizing, carbon coat, etc.), but if you aren't keen to do this every other year, yes, go with brass by all means.

spoke wind up occurs regardless of rim material. when you de-tension a spoke by hand (with a spoke wrench, as opposed to the method described by @jstuhlman ), you're addressing the spoke windup at the same time.

absolutely do NOT use lubricant on spokes. you want some manner of thread lock, and lubricant does not perform this function in the slightest.

and yes, there's circumstances where alloy nipples are perfectly fine, but in general i don't recommend them unless you're the type of person re-lacing wheels on an annual basis. or are having the team mechanic do it for you.

 

[jonKranked]

buddy is one of the best wheelbuilders in the area; after getting shit tight he'd always put each end of the hub on the ground and work his way around the wheel pressing down hard on opposite sides of the rim. looked hilarious. then re-checks tension. i guess this is what he was doing. his wheels are bombproof and only come out of true with the greatest of fuckery. so i don't question it.

i do that too. releases spoke wind up. this method doesn't really work as well with carbon.

 

[jonKranked]

My biggest self critique for wheel-building is not getting long enough spokes. It's happened a few times in the past and it's better to be 1 or 2mm longer, always, than shorter. Use some damn nipple washers if you have to, but do not ever build with spokes too short. Unfortunately, sometimes you don't realize until you get the thing all together and start increasing tension. When it's all said and done and you can still see spoke threads...that is bad.

it is definitely not better to be longer, at least not more than a mm, because then you're running the risk of spoke sticking out the backside of the nipple; depending on how deep your rims are this can interfere with your tube / rim rape. when dealing with spoke calculators (most of which give you a fraction of a mm) i always round it down, but generally try to keep it to 1mm, but i have done 2mm short before with no ill effect. one way you can compensate for this is by using something longer than a 12mm nipple.

 

[jonKranked]

I didn't know about the carbon/galvanic corrosion link...

i had to google myself, the carbon fibers themselves are conductive

 

[6thElement]

Park wheel stand.
Park spoke keys have worked well for me, I know some hate them for some reason.
Park spoke tension meter - better than trying to figure it out by hand

I think I always followed the lacing instructions on Sheldon Brown. After lacing and tensioning I use the rest the wheel on the side of the hub and lean on the sides of the rim method, then re-check.

 

[HAB]

I didn't know about the carbon/galvanic corrosion link...

I had an early pair of Enve wheels completely disintegrate because the aluminum nipples corroded away to nothing. They switched to brass not long after. Their internal nipples probably made the problem even worse, and I think they didn't bother anodizing them since they weren't visible.

 

[Jm_]

it is definitely not better to be longer, at least not more than a mm, because then you're running the risk of spoke sticking out the backside of the nipple; depending on how deep your rims are this can interfere with your tube / rim rape. when dealing with spoke calculators (most of which give you a fraction of a mm) i always round it down, but generally try to keep it to 1mm, but i have done 2mm short before with no ill effect. one way you can compensate for this is by using something longer than a 12mm nipple.

You could run a nipple washer to fix that. If the spokes are too short, you are more screwed, need all new nipples or spokes. I'm not sure a longer nipple is ideal (but yeah, all of these are less than ideal), even though it may be grabbing the threads correctly, the correct length spokes tend to reinforce the nipple head and add significant strength to this part, which wouldn't be happening with a longer nipple to "reach" the threads.

 

[Jm_]

absolutely do NOT use lubricant on spokes. you want some manner of thread lock, and lubricant does not perform this function in the slightest.

I disagree with this part though, thread lock just jams your spokes to the nipples and makes any adjustment down the road next to (or totally) impossible. I've had to cut out spokes when I was using this method. I'm not suggesting straight up grease or anything, but I've never had good luck using spoke-prep/thread-locking compounds. They always jam the nipples. Possibly, brass nipples can be "broken free" without rounding, as I haven't built with them in a while, but for aluminum? I learned my lesson on this. What I use is something to provide some barrier to the galvanic corrosion and that also acts as a lubricant. I've never had spokes come loose doing this. I seem to remember a long time ago, like 15-20 years, spokes/nipples occasionally loosened up. Not sure why, too long ago.

 

[jonKranked]

I disagree with this part though, thread lock just jams your spokes to the nipples and makes any adjustment down the road next to (or totally) impossible. I've had to cut out spokes when I was using this method. I'm not suggesting straight up grease or anything, but I've never had good luck using spoke-prep/thread-locking compounds. They always jam the nipples. Possibly, brass nipples can be "broken free" without rounding, as I haven't built with them in a while, but for aluminum? I learned my lesson on this. What I use is something to provide some barrier to the galvanic corrosion and that also acts as a lubricant. I've never had spokes come loose doing this. I seem to remember a long time ago, like 15-20 years, spokes/nipples occasionally loosened up. Not sure why, too long ago.

i always use linseed oil. never had an issue.

you don't want to use full on thread lock like locktite, you want spoke prep or similar intended for this application. and used sparingly.

 

[Jm_]

i always use linseed oil.

But you just said to not use a lubricant? I'm confused now.

 

[jonKranked]

But you just said to not use a lubricant? I'm confused now.

linseed oil is not a lubricant. when it dries it polymerizes.

 

[6thElement]

Nipple cream.

Rock n Roll Nipple Cream

Rock n Roll Nipple Cream :: From $13.98 :: Wheel Building Tools & Supplies

www.universalcycles.com

 

[Jm_]

linseed oil is not a lubricant. when it dries it polymerizes.

But it works as a lubricant while you are using it, no?

But yeah, I'm way suspicious of stuff that "dries" or "hardens", too many jammed nipples down the road.

 

[jonKranked]

But it works as a lubricant while you are using it, no?

But yeah, I'm way suspicious of stuff that "dries" or "hardens", too many jammed nipples down the road.

nope. ideally you wanna let it dry/cure on the spokes before lacing them. i've never had a jammed nipple in all the years i've been using it. it gets more gummy when it dries/cures.

 

[Pesqueeb]

Of unfortunately timely relevance to this thread, my rear I9 has consumed 2 drive side spokes in 3 rides. Clearly something is going on with the wheel. I had it rebuilt by Industry a number of years ago, but I'm unable to find any documentation that tells me exactly when, so I'm going to assume this is an age/use issue. An admittedly brief search on teh intertubez seems to indicate I9 spokes may be hard to come by these days, at least in red. I need to price out tools/books/I9 spokes, if I can even find them, and see if it's even within my budget at this point to do both.