Quantcast

Who Killed Jesus?

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus


Mel Gibson's powerful but troubling new movie, 'The Passion of the Christ,' is reviving one of the most explosive questions ever. What history tells us about Jesus' last hours, the world in which he lived, anti-Semitism, Scripture and the nature of faith itself.

Who Killed Jesus?
Newsweek | Feb. 16, 2004 | Jon Meacham

It is night, in a quiet, nearly deserted garden in Jerusalem. A figure is praying; his friends sleep a short distance away. We are in the last hours of the life of Jesus of Nazareth, in the spring of roughly the year 30, at the time of the Jewish feast of Passover. The country—first-century Judea, the early 21st's Israel—is part of the Roman Empire. The prefect, Pontius Pilate, is Caesar's ranking representative in the province, a place riven with fierce religious disputes. Jesus comes from Galilee, a kind of backwater; as a Jewish healer and teacher, he has attracted great notice in the years, months and days leading up to this hour.

His popularity seemed to be surging among at least some of the thousands of pilgrims gathered in the city for Passover. Crowds cheered him, proclaiming him the Messiah, which to first-century Jewish ears meant he was the "king of the Jews" who heralded the coming of the Kingdom of God, a time in which the yoke of Roman rule would be thrown off, ushering in an age of light for Israel. Hungry for liberation and deliverance, some of those in the teeming city were apparently flocking to Jesus, threatening to upset the delicate balance of power in Jerusalem.

The priests responsible for the Temple had an understanding with the Romans: the Jewish establishment would do what it could to keep the peace, or else Pilate would strike. And so the high priest, Caiaphas, dispatches a party to arrest Jesus. Guided by Judas, they find him in Gethsemane. In the language of the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, there is this exchange: "Whom do you seek?" Jesus asks. "Jesus of Nazareth." The answer comes quickly. "I am he."

Thus begins the final chapter of the most influential story in Western history. For Christians, the Passion—from the Latin passus, the word means "having suffered" or "having undergone"—is the very heart of their faith. Down the ages, however, when read without critical perspective and a proper sense of history, the Christian narratives have sometimes been contorted to lay the responsibility for Jesus' execution at the feet of the Jewish people, a contortion that has long fueled the fires of anti-Semitism.


*Click the word Newsweek just below the title block for more*
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
Uh, Jesus willingly died. It's the whole lamb of God thing. His self sacrafice for our sin deal.

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, E'lo-i, E'lo-i, lama sabach'thani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Ps. 22.1

35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Eli'jah.

36 And one ran and filled a sponge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, Ps. 69.21 saying, Let alone; let us see whether Eli'jah will come to take him down.

37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

Mark 15 34:37 King James


Thanks for trolling N8.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
I was asked in a job interview once what made me a good engineer, I said I played with lego ALOT when I was a kid........they made me an offer right on the spot (no joke)

But I digress, I read that article this morning. From a historical persective it was the Romans who killed Jesus, but from a Biblical, it was all humanity.

It really rubs me raw these "Christians" that think the Jews killed Jesus (news flash, He was suppose to die.....), that attitude is a) contrary to the NT, and b) most Christians in the early church were Jewish so if you "hate" Jews you hate the early church "fathers" (Paul, James, Peter, John,).

Anyway, thats what I think FWIW.
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
Originally posted by Andyman_1970
I was asked in a job interview once what made me a good engineer, I said I played with lego ALOT when I was a kid........they made me an offer right on the spot (no joke)

But I digress, I read that article this morning. From a historical persective it was the Romans who killed Jesus, but from a Biblical, it was all humanity.

It really rubs me raw these "Christians" that think the Jews killed Jesus (news flash, He was suppose to die.....), that attitude is a) contrary to the NT, and b) most Christians in the early church were Jewish so if you "hate" Jews you hate the early church "fathers" (Paul, James, Peter, John,).

Anyway, thats what I think FWIW.
Most of the flap is coming from the ADL. Anti-Semitism is on the rise and they are trying to keep awareness high on the issue. Can't blame 'em. When you get religion all tied up in politics (Isreal-Vs-Palestine) it's easy to lump the faithful into the policys of the government. Not a good deal.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Wouldn't God ultimately be the one responsible for killing Jesus..??? Mere mortals do not have that kind of power, or do they?
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Originally posted by N8
Wouldn't God ultimately be the one responsible for killing Jesus..??? Mere mortals do not have that kind of power, or do they?
Ding ding ding, we have a winner! Your absolutly right N8, He willingly gave up His life. The text says that He gave up His spirit, not that He died of His wounds.

Good job!!! :thumb:
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Originally posted by Andyman_1970
Ding ding ding, we have a winner! Your absolutly right N8, He willingly gave up His life. The text says that He gave up His spirit, not that He died of His wounds.

Good job!!! :thumb:

Waffer please!

:)
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Originally posted by LordOpie
So he's a quitter?

:devil:
Nah... "died" is not quite the correct term I should think. Jesus is God and can not die per say. This is one point that always confuses me.
 

ummbikes

Don't mess with the Santas
Apr 16, 2002
1,794
0
Napavine, Warshington
Originally posted by N8
Nah... "died" is not quite the correct term I should think. Jesus is God and can not die per say. This is one point that always confuses me.
I beleive that Jesus was transformed from God the man to God the Holy Spirit when he "gave up the ghost."

Stinkle, Andyman, Damn True, does this sound right?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Originally posted by ummbikes
I beleive that Jesus was transformed from God the man to God the Holy Spirit when he "gave up the ghost."

Stinkle, Andyman, Damn True, does this sound right?
what complicates this for me is the whole descending into hell bit. If i recall, this was not symbolic, but rather literal.

<handoff>
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by $tinkle
what complicates this for me is the whole descending into hell bit. If i recall, this was not symbolic, but rather literal.

<handoff>
We don't believe in hell :D

<punt>
 

bikeCOLORADO

Chimp
May 9, 2003
98
0
Colorado Springs, USA!
Originally posted by Tweek
Through our sins, we all did.
Case closed.
That's it...the Bible clearly states this time and time again. It's a difficult concept for the modern world to grasp for some reason. This whole thing has taken focus of the real POINT...
This movie and this story isn't about WHO killed Jesus, but that He was killed - He died for EVERY one of us so that we can have eternal life - PERIOD.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Originally posted by ummbikes
I beleive that Jesus was transformed from God the man to God the Holy Spirit when he "gave up the ghost."

Stinkle, Andyman, Damn True, does this sound right?
Yep, He did physically die on the cross, and on Sunday morning He physically rose from the dead (not a Spirit).

His death was the equivalent (on a much larger scale, all of humanity) to the OT blood sacrafice for the atonement of Israels sins. Per the OT there is not remission of sins without the shedding of blood, that's why He had to literally die.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Originally posted by Andyman_1970
Yep, He did physically die on the cross, and on Sunday morning He physically rose from the dead (not a Spirit).

His death was the equivalent (on a much larger scale, all of humanity) to the OT blood sacrafice for the atonement of Israels sins. Per the OT there is not remission of sins without the shedding of blood, that's why He had to literally die.
Scripture tells us very little about Jesus' state between his death and resurrection. The most commonly cited biblical passages are Acts 2:31; Ephesians 4:8-10; 1 Peter 4:6; and, most importantly, 1 Peter 3:18-20.

how's that?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Originally posted by Andyman_1970
Really :confused: , I seem to have read several passages in the OT (Jonah of the top of my head) where the Hebrew word "Sheol" is used to denote Hell, or the place of the dead.
was that a joke? i think sheol is their version of sunday school. hey........
 

Tweek

I Love Cheap Beer!
Originally posted by ummbikes
I beleive that Jesus was transformed from God the man to God the Holy Spirit when he "gave up the ghost."

Stinkle, Andyman, Damn True, does this sound right?
From the moment of His conception, Jesus was both completely human and completely divine in nature. "He was born by the power of the Holy Spirit," which dwelled witihin Him throughout his life. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. So basically, the HS, like God the Father has always been.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Originally posted by Andyman_1970
Really :confused: , I seem to have read several passages in the OT (Jonah of the top of my head) where the Hebrew word "Sheol" is used to denote Hell, or the place of the dead.
I don't think we believe in the generic hell of pain and torture. And I think the idea of gnashing teeth and screams and such comes from not a place of eternal torment and such, but what happened to criminals who were thrown into a pit for capital punishment. Don't be bad or you'll get thrown in the pit and burn up and it would really suck :D

So, if I'm not mistaken, "hell" was a tangible place on earth to execute the really bad people and the typical "hell" that people think of managed by satan/lucifer doesn't actually exist.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,180
17
TN
Hmmm...

What struck me odd about Nates post was that the Roman dude was named Pilate.
Pilates, the exercise for abs, comes from around Rome or Italy or something right?

But if i recall correctly...jesus was the one with great abs. At least in the pictures. I sense some jealousy. I think I've found a motive.
 

charmin

Monkey
Dec 8, 2003
136
0
Originally posted by Andyman_1970
Yep, He did physically die on the cross, and on Sunday morning He physically rose from the dead (not a Spirit).

His death was the equivalent (on a much larger scale, all of humanity) to the OT blood sacrafice for the atonement of Israels sins. Per the OT there is not remission of sins without the shedding of blood, that's why He had to literally die.
Speaking of a misconception (and this might be TMI) -- the OT does not use human blood ever -- there were ceremonies that required blood (a red heffer's in particular) from which the priests used the blood to "purify" (bad translation -- actual translation is closer to open creativity floodgates).
 

zod

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,376
0
G-County, NC
Originally posted by LordOpie
So, if I'm not mistaken, "hell" was a tangible place on earth to execute the really bad people and the typical "hell" that people think of managed by satan/lucifer doesn't actually exist.
What Bible have you been reading?? Make no mistake about it, the Bible makes it very clear what Hell is, that it exist, and that it's real and the inevitable end of the road for those who deny the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ...

Back to the topic, historically there is no denying that the Jewish high preist are the most responsible party for the death of Jesus, followed closely by the Roman Empire(and let us not forget the role Judas Iscariot played as well).Spiritually every person on the Earth, past present and future is responsible for his passing.

I don't understand why Jews are getting pissed at Mel Gibson for the way they are going to be betrayed in this movie. I shouldn't even say they......it's a select group of ruling Jewish clergy from 2000 years ago who are getting a bad rap.....not the whole Jewish community. And besides as Mel Gibson has said himself, don't get mad at him if you don't like what you see on the screen, get mad at God, it's his story, not Gibsons.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Originally posted by charmin
Speaking of a misconception (and this might be TMI) -- the OT does not use human blood ever -- there were ceremonies that required blood (a red heffer's in particular) from which the priests used the blood to "purify" (bad translation -- actual translation is closer to open creativity floodgates).
Who did God tell Abraham to take up the alter and sacrafice? I don't think it's the kind of blood, it's the condition of the sacrafice (it has to be "spotless").
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
As Edmund Burke observed in Thoughts on the Cause of Present Discontents, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

No one person or group is responsible for Jesus' death. As with "original sin", so do we all collectively as humanity bear responsibility for Jesus' death.

As a sidebar, note the irony in how godless left-wingers cannot reconcile the concept of bearing responsibility for the deeds of our forefathers where Jesus is concerned, yet they feel plenty of transferred guilt over the past treatment of hyphenated Americans and the capitalist/imperialist-subjugated peoples of the world.
 

charmin

Monkey
Dec 8, 2003
136
0
Originally posted by Andyman_1970
Who did God tell Abraham to take up the alter and sacrafice? I don't think it's the kind of blood, it's the condition of the sacrafice (it has to be "spotless").
Good job! It was Isaac -- this was Abraham's "test" -- to see if he would sacrifice Isaac (his only child) for G-d. But, if you recall at the last minute, a ram was used as the sacrifice. (FYI -- Isaac was 37 at the time).

Also, good memory on "spotless" -- there should be no blemishes, etc (and when I say etc, I mean etc., there's a whole bunch of rules). And it does, in fact, matter what kind of animal is used.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Originally posted by Tweek
From the moment of His conception, Jesus was both completely human and completely divine in nature. "He was born by the power of the Holy Spirit," which dwelled witihin Him throughout his life. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. So basically, the HS, like God the Father has always been.
Depends on your belief. Many 'Christians' believe he was entirely human until he was resurrected (which was only possible because he was without sin).

You're referring to the belief in the Holy Trinity which is not universal amongst Christians.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Originally posted by zod
What Bible have you been reading?? Make no mistake about it, the Bible makes it very clear what Hell is, that it exist, and that it's real and the inevitable end of the road for those who deny the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ...
That is actually open to interpretation. Some Christian sects do not believe in a physical hell. Hell, incidently, is the old English word for the earth beneath our feet (in which we are buried).
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
Originally posted by llkoolkeg


As a sidebar, note the irony in how godless left-wingers cannot reconcile the concept of bearing responsibility for the deeds of our forefathers where Jesus is concerned, yet they feel plenty of transferred guilt over the past treatment of hyphenated Americans and the capitalist/imperialist-subjugated peoples of the world.
Good point!

A 'god-less' Right winger would then be guilt free!!!

:devil:
 

charmin

Monkey
Dec 8, 2003
136
0
Originally posted by zod
I don't understand why Jews are getting pissed at Mel Gibson for the way they are going to be betrayed in this movie.
The issue is that anti-semitism is real. Your inquiry seems to forget that hatred that has been bred since birth requires very little spark to ignite.
 

zod

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,376
0
G-County, NC
Originally posted by fluff
That is actually open to interpretation. Some Christian sects do not believe in a physical hell. Hell, incidently, is the old English word for the earth beneath our feet (in which we are buried).
There is really no interpretation to it.......when people start interpreting the Bible instead of accepting it they lead themselves down a path to destruction.
I would assume these are the same sects that think it's OK to be gay????
 

zod

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,376
0
G-County, NC
Originally posted by charmin
The issue is that anti-semitism is real. Your inquiry seems to forget that hatred that has been bred since birth requires very little spark to ignite.
But as I said, don't get mad at Mel Gibson......he didn't write the gospel. He's just putting it on film.
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Originally posted by charmin
Good job! It was Isaac -- this was Abraham's "test" -- to see if he would sacrifice Isaac (his only child) for G-d. But, if you recall at the last minute, a ram was used as the sacrifice. (FYI -- Isaac was 37 at the time).

Also, good memory on "spotless" -- there should be no blemishes, etc (and when I say etc, I mean etc., there's a whole bunch of rules). And it does, in fact, matter what kind of animal is used.
So if God would not have provided a sacrafice would He have accepted Issac? Back up to Genesis 3, God makes clothes for Adam and Eve out of the skins of animals to literally and sybolically cover their sins. How did He get those skins? By killing some animals (which up onto this point in the Garden had not happened, at least according to Scripture). This was before the law, and no specific animal had been required, yet is was sufficent for God.

Jesus at the last supper in Matthew 26 says "For this is My blood of the New Covenant which concerning many is being poured out for remission of sins. "

The Apostle Paul (a Jewish Rabbi BTW) says in Romans 3 that "whom God Himself put forward publicly [as] a mercy seat [or, propitiation] through faith in His blood, for a demonstration of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the sins having previously occurred in the tolerance of God,"

This is where we as Christians get teh concept that Jesus was our "sacraficial lamb" and that by His blood we are made "whole" before God.
 

charmin

Monkey
Dec 8, 2003
136
0
Originally posted by zod
There is really no interpretation to it.......when people start interpreting the Bible instead of accepting it they lead themselves down a path to destruction.
That is fascinating that you say that. You will find, if you read the text in its original version with its commentaries, there are scores of interpretations. And, brilliantly (in my opinion), prior to decisions being made (in courts of religious law) about how different laws should be applied, context for a given situation was taken into account.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
Originally posted by zod
There is really no interpretation to it.......when people start interpreting the Bible instead of accepting it they lead themselves down a path to destruction.
I would assume these are the same sects that think it's OK to be gay????
It's all interpretation, whether you like that term or not. And to your second question, nope; a better definition would be Christian fundamentalists.

How much do you know of Christians outside your own denomination (nicer word than sect)?
 

Andyman_1970

Turbo Monkey
Apr 4, 2003
3,105
5
The Natural State
Originally posted by charmin
The issue is that anti-semitism is real. Your inquiry seems to forget that hatred that has been bred since birth requires very little spark to ignite.
Any "Christian" who is an anti-semite needs to examine his or her faith and see if they really are a Christian. If you hate Jews, Jesus was a Jew, do they hate Jesus? How about the majority of the early church (book Acts) was Jewish, do they hate the early Chruch fathers?

Jesus taught that EVERYONE is to be treated with respect and dignity, even the people you don't really like (ie your enemies). Any anti-semitism on the part of a "Christian" is contrary to the teachings of the person they are suppose to believe is the Messiah.

The Apostle Paul even says that there is no difference once you become a Christian between a Jew and a Greek, and that Gentile Christians are Abraham's spiritual seed like the Jews are his literal seed.

Anyway, that attitude among so called Christians really rubs me the wrong way.:angry:
 

charmin

Monkey
Dec 8, 2003
136
0
Originally posted by Andyman_1970
So if God would not have provided a sacrafice would He have accepted Issac? Back up to Genesis 3, God makes clothes for Adam and Eve out of the skins of animals to literally and sybolically cover their sins. How did He get those skins? By killing some animals (which up onto this point in the Garden had not happened, at least according to Scripture). This was before the law, and no specific animal had been required, yet is was sufficent for God.
Ok, good questions. I think we disagree on the definition of sacrifice (besides disagreeing on how to spell it). Sacrifice to me, (in this context) is a ritual that prescribes how someone goes about killing an animal in service to g-d.

I cannot begin to presume to understand what (or even why) G-d does things. So how could I possibly explain it to you?
 

zod

Turbo Monkey
Jul 17, 2003
1,376
0
G-County, NC
Originally posted by fluff
It's all interpretation, whether you like that term or not. And to your second question, nope; a better definition would be Christian fundamentalists.

How much do you know of Christians outside your own denomination (nicer word than sect)?
I do not affiliate with a demomination