[curtix]

From the standpoint of economics mostly.
Great Read.

Excerpt:
"In a radio debate several months ago with a Marxist professor from the University of Minnesota, I pointed out the obvious failures of socialism around the world in Cuba, Eastern Europe, and China. At the time of our debate, Haitian refugees were risking their lives trying to get to Florida in homemade boats. Why was it, I asked him, that people were fleeing Haiti and traveling almost 500 miles by ocean to get to the "evil capitalist empire" when they were only 50 miles from the "workers' paradise" of Cuba? "

Full Article - Enjoy

 

[Samirol]

Cuba, China, and the USSR are examples when government control is too strong and autocratic. I am against autocracies very strongly.

Cuba has shown that it is willing to loosen up its grip, it appears to be making small steps towards prosperity.

I disagree with the statement in the article "Socialism does not work because it is not consistent with fundamental principles of human behavior."

Human behavior is very malleable and adaptable. Thousands of years ago, cannibalism was human behavior, violent outbursts were completely normal, and a national identity extending multiple timezones and millions of people would be ludicrous.

Central planning is proven to have failed, and it obviously isn't the way to go.

"Programs like socialized medicine, welfare, social security, and minimum wage laws will continue to entice us because on the surface they appear to be expedient and beneficial. Those programs, like all socialist programs, will fail in the long run regardless of initial appearances"

That part is absolutely ridiculous, however. The FEE is a neoliberal think tank, so I give it about as much credibility as the CATO Institute.

 

[valve bouncer]

Getting time for a courtesy flush I reckon BV.

 

[Defenestrated]

Maybe they were fleeing the oppression and tyranny of a authoritarian ruler? Just maybe.

 

[ohio]

From the standpoint of economics mostly.

Really? Socialism failed because of economics. Mostly. What's the part that's outside of the "mostly?"



By the way, the majority of folks here will agree with you that socialism is not viable. Where they will disagree is the notion that America could ever be socialist or that ANY politicians are advocating socialism.

This is like me posting that Fascism is doomed to failure, and then standing proudly on my proclamation as proof of McCain's fundamental flaws.

 

[blue]

Y'all are mixing up some terms...

 

[DirtyDog]

By the way, the majority of folks here will agree with you that socialism is not viable. Where they will disagree is the notion that America could ever be socialist or that ANY politicians are advocating socialism.

Socialism can be defined in many ways. You have provided the most extreme examples and like Ohio said, we'll never be at that end of the spectrum. Even if we elect a democratic president!

 

[curtix]

Socialism can be defined in many ways. You have provided the most extreme examples and like Ohio said, we'll never be at that end of the spectrum. Even if we elect a democratic president!

Can you also tell me how many children I will have or is your fortune telling limited?

 

[binary visions]

Can you also tell me how many children I will have or is your fortune telling limited?

Fortune telling of that magnitude is on par with me suggesting you probably won't have 3,211 children.

 

[jsh191]

Fortune telling of that magnitude is on par with me suggesting you probably won't have 3,211 children.

how about the likelihood of curtix actually posting something about bikes? rather than continuous political rhetoric?

 

[curtix]

how about the likelihood of curtix actually posting something about bikes? rather than continuous political rhetoric?

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208771
You can also use the search function. It works wonders.

 

[dante]

how about the likelihood of curtix actually posting something interesting? rather than continuous nonsense about how he doesn't understand what Socialism really is?

fixed.

 

[Stray_cat]

 

[curtix]

fixed.

I actually do understand Socialism. I do not think the USA will become a Socialist Nation in 8 years. I also do not think that the Constitution and the founding fathers would accept the loss of rights and loss of freedoms of choice that come with it. The erosion of freedoms is and the direction that the Socialist and Marxist would like to take this country towards are what I am against. You all can continue to support these ideas of course, thanks to the freedoms in America, but I want people to be sure they know what they are buying into, and where it leads, and why it fails. That's all. Its so funny how fervently you all defend it.

 

[curtix]

:biggrin:

 

[binary visions]

I want people to be sure they know what they are buying into, and where it leads, and why it fails. That's all.

Well, if those are your intentions, you are batting 0 for 3 since this is not what people are buying into, it is not where the policies you object to are leading, and these policies have nothing to do with the failure of pure socialism. Thanks, though.

Its so funny how fervently you all defend it.

I'm not sure there's much defending of anything going on in this thread. Most of the posts I'm reading are either laughing at you or demonstrating how ridiculous your posts are.

 

[curtix]

Well, if those are your intentions, you are batting 0 for 3 since this is not what people are buying into, it is not where the policies you object to are leading, and these policies have nothing to do with the failure of pure socialism. Thanks, though.

Do you think Socialism is a bad idea then?

Nice Sovereign BTW - da hawtness

 

[reflux]

Y'all are mixing up some terms...

Transcend has given up on trying, perhaps you should too.

 

[binary visions]

Do you think Socialism is a bad idea then?

Are we having a discussion about Socialism or are we discussing current politics? No, I don't think Socialism is viable. Nor do I think that has anything to do with what any current (significant) political figure is discussing.

Nice Sovereign BTW - da hawtness

Thanks, too bad it doesn't get ridden these days. Done w/ my crazy schedule in May, though, and it'll be pulled back out of storage

 

[curtix]

In order of importance:

Thanks, too bad it doesn't get ridden these days. Done w/ my crazy schedule in May, though, and it'll be pulled back out of storage

Sell it to me.

Are we having a discussion about Socialism or are we discussing current politics? No, I don't think Socialism is viable. Nor do I think that has anything to do with what any current (significant) political figure is discussing.

I disagree here. I think today's political climate. Look at the Bail out of Fannie Mae. See to me that is a borderline a socialist move. I am obviously a free market guy. I think part of the problem with this nation is the loss of personal responsibility. I think we, as a nation, are moving towards a "Government should solve all my problems" landscape, and to further speculate I feel like that is a shift towards Socialism, no matter how small.

 

[Stray_cat]

So do you see something wrong with this picture? Would it be solved with more de-regulation? Should the rest of the 90% just worked harder?

(Sourse: UCSC)

I don't think most people are hoping for a socialist government, but they're not completely phobic of the ideas presented by socialism. The above graph doesn't defend Socialism, but calls to question why you so ardently support capitalism. Just like socialism, capitalism has not proven itself.

 

[curtix]

So do you see something wrong with this picture? Would it be solved with more de-regulation? Should the rest of the 90% just worked harder?

(Sourse: UCSC)

I don't think most people are hoping for a socialist government, but they're not completely phobic of the ideas presented by socialism.

Well I don't know what the answer is going to be. I do not think total de-regulation in the answer - but let me ask you this:
Redistribution of wealth a good idea?

 

[Stray_cat]

Well I don't know what the answer is going to be. I do not think total de-regulation in the answer - but let me ask you this:
Redistribution of wealth a good idea?

Probably not, even though I'd stand to gain from wealth re-distribution. I'm just asking on what grounds are you defending our current system. Statistically speaking it seems to only work for 10% or us.

 

[curtix]

Probably not, even though I'd stand to gain from wealth re-distribution. I'm just asking on what grounds are you defending our current system. Statistically speaking it seems to only work for 10% or us.

Well it depends on if you think having a lot of money = "working". Plus I am not a fan of the current system. Its broken as well. Look at the government bailing out all this BS. That's a bad plan.

 

[ohio]

Look at the Bail out of Fannie Mae. See to me that is a borderline a socialist move. I am obviously a free market guy.

You obviously don't understand a thing about the FM/FM "bailout." Not only is it not even remotely, directionally socialist, it is preventing the collapse of our free market system that resulted from the DEregulation of the capital markets.

You're answer was only slightly smarter than Palin's idiotic statement on the same subject (in nice contradiction to pretty much everyone that actually understood the event, including economic non-expert John McCain). :facepalm:

 

[JohnE]

"The main difference between capitalism and socialism is this: Capitalism works."

For a select few. Those with the wherewithal to invest, build or otherwise take advantage of the opportunities it presents. The rest of us are subject to the trickle down whims of the powers that be.
In small doses, socialist policies work fantastically. To each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities etc. Small communes still survive based on Socialist principles. But that is the key, they are small and the occupants are truly interested in the success of the community. Once larger populations are introduced, they become lazy and less interested in doing what is right and good for the community...

 

[Defenestrated]

Socialism works very well in societies with civic virtue and concern for the "other man".

We are a large society with a very prevalent "Fvck you, I've got mine" mentality, for this reason I seriously doubt socialism would work in the U.S. as is.

 

[manimal]

Mostly. What's the part that's outside of the "mostly?"

"they mostly come at night...mostly"

 

[TheMontashu]

Well I don't know what the answer is going to be. I do not think total de-regulation in the answer - but let me ask you this:
Redistribution of wealth a good idea?

It's a great idea, well not redistribution of wealth, how about redistribution of income? Poor hardly have a chance compared to the rich, look at the amount of poor in the ghetto going to college (even the middle class can't realy afford it) it's not because those kids are any dumber than the rich kids, it's a symptom of the poverty.
capitalism as it stands now really sucks, it is set up for exploitation. The problem with capitalism is that there is incentive to make massive amounts of money (and power) Look at people like wal mart, they don't even pay most of there workers a livable wage, while the executives get rich as hell. Rich people have sent jobs over seas to make labor cheeper, allowing them to accumulate more wealth while making the work force poorer. Not only this, but generally the easiest way to make money, it to have a bunch of money.

As it sits now capitalism also has some dire effects on democracy, Politicians take HUGE campaign donations corporations. This is done indirectly, and legally, through soft money, and believe me politicians know who is putting them in office.

You also have to rethink your definition of what success as a nation is. Remember, cuba has a higher literacy rate than us, and many European countries have incredible social medicine programs.

 

[Defenestrated]

Well if human motivation remains material in nature capitalism will remain. However should we suddenly become motivated by morals then socialism may have a chance.

 

[curtix]

So do you see something wrong with this picture? Would it be solved with more de-regulation? Should the rest of the 90% just worked harder?

(Sourse: UCSC)

I don't think most people are hoping for a socialist government, but they're not completely phobic of the ideas presented by socialism. The above graph doesn't defend Socialism, but calls to question why you so ardently support capitalism. Just like socialism, capitalism has not proven itself.

You know I was thinking about this, and something I think people miss, maybe you have missed. In America, long as we have the freedom to do so, I get to choose to some extent where I fall on that chart. I am free to make myself, to work hard, invest, and save money, all the things I was taught growing up.
But besides that my household income is under 70k for my whole family and I feel rich - I have way more than I need. Heck I might even put some more in my 401k.
Tally Ho.

 

[Stray_cat]

In America, long as we have the freedom to do so, I get to choose to some extent where I fall on that chart. I am free to make myself, to work hard, invest, and save money, all the things I was taught growing up.
Tally Ho.

Ok, admit it, you’re a libertarian. Either that or really dig on Ayn Rand. You also sound like someone who’s armed with the tools of privilege, much like myself. Aka, access to decent education (not all public schools are created equal), access to a stable financially supportive home ext ext. Telling people they can ‘make themselves’ via hard work when they do not have access to the same things you do is a slap in the face.

The Czar used to tell surfs that hard work was a following Gods’ will, in America we tell people to ‘define themselves(aka make yourself)’ via their work, because that's what it means to be 'free'. Though an extreme example, both systems breed an economic dichotomy.

 

[Samirol]

You know I was thinking about this, and something I think people miss, maybe you have missed. In America, long as we have the freedom to do so, I get to choose to some extent where I fall on that chart. I am free to make myself, to work hard, invest, and save money, all the things I was taught growing up.
But besides that my household income is under 70k for my whole family and I feel rich - I have way more than I need. Heck I might even put some more in my 401k.
Tally Ho.

So your argument is that the people in the lower 60% just don't try hard enough? The divide between the rich and poor is greater than ever.

 

[curtix]

Ok, admit it, you’re a libertarian. Either that or really dig on Ayn Rand. You also sound like someone who’s armed with the tools of privilege, much like myself. Aka, access to decent education (not all public schools are created equal), access to a stable financially supportive home ext ext. Telling people they can ‘make themselves’ via hard work when they do not have access to the same things you do is a slap in the face.

"tools of privilege" - My parents split while I was home and my sister and I managed, it was a mess. I graduated public High school ( barely) small town 90+ in graduating class. , after that I paid my own way. Some Community College and some computer college - I didn't finish. ( my Dad actually thanked me once for not asking him to pay for it because he wouldn't have been able too ). I put myself through 2 years of school while working construction. I wouldn't call myself Privileged.

 

[curtix]

So your argument is that the people in the lower 60% just don't try hard enough? The divide between the rich and poor is greater than ever.

No - my argument is that to some degree people have something to do with where they fall in the economic scale. Do you not agree. Or do you just want to be one of the rich elitist and want the world to just give it to you. Bill gates didn't get rich because he didn't work his ass off for it. He was a brilliant man, his business models are still taught today.
Can you admit that some people are poor because they are lazy, not all, not even most, but some.
Edit: Thanks to Bill Gates rich brilliant arse - 79,000 people have jobs.

 

[Stray_cat]

"tools of privilege" - My parents split while I was home and my sister and I managed, it was a mess. I graduated public High school ( barely) small town 90+ in graduating class. , after that I paid my own way. Some Community College and some computer college - I didn't finish. ( my Dad actually thanked me once for not asking him to pay for it because he wouldn't have been able too ). I put myself through 2 years of school while working construction. I wouldn't call myself Privileged.

You probably would if you had a better undstanding of the limitations faced by Americas' poor. I also paid for my own education, I still consider myself a privileged American.

 

[curtix]

You probably would if you had a better undstanding of the limitations faced by Americas' poor. I also paid for my own education, I still consider myself a privileged American.

Oh yea I am with you on "privileged American" I am sure we can all agree it is the best country to live in bar none. I have lived in 1 other country at length and been to many, and nothing is like here.
Living in America is a Privilege.

 

[curtix]

You probably would if you had a better undstanding of the limitations faced by Americas' poor.

I do have a pretty good understanding. I mean I can explain why if you wish, but think about this - right before I moved out of my house where my father and sister lived with me, we were on food stamps, and that was even still living it up. I hang out with some truly poor people sometimes, I am not here to blow my own horn at all, just letting you know - that I know. First Hand.

 

[sanjuro]

"Programs like socialized medicine, welfare, social security, and minimum wage laws will continue to entice us because on the surface they appear to be expedient and beneficial. Those programs, like all socialist programs, will fail in the long run regardless of initial appearances"

That's right. When the Canadian and British Health Care system collapses, I told you so!

 

[Stray_cat]

Oh yea I am with you on "privileged American" I am sure we can all agree it is the best country to live in bar none. I have lived in 1 other country at length and been to many, and nothing is like here.
Living in America is a Privilege.

Indeed it is, but upon whos' back does it ride?