After riding my Izimu today, I was wondering if a floater like the one on the judge will prove performace that SP can some times lack, is this true?
will a floater improve the performance of a SP?
- Thread starter GPERKINS
- Start date
It will separate braking forces from suspension forces, reducing brake jack/dive.
what he said.
it will only effect the performance under braking which typically locks out under braking
so is it worth it to add the floater?
if youre weight weiny, then no. both of my single pivot bikes have em and they do make a difference.
Adds weight, makes a ton of noise, typically makes the brakes drag if it floats laterally at all, and doesn't make you any faster if you know how to use your brakes.
It might help, but then again, learning how to brake properly on a SP will help much more. (I'm not saying that to be an ass, I am speaking from personal experience.)
^^ that is what I was wondering also.
did you try jiggling it?
I hear this consistently in regards to single pivots..."If you know how to brake" or "If you brake properly on a S.P." but I have never heard anyone explain exactly how using the brakes on a s.p. differs from braking technique on other designs.
Not calling anyone out here...just let us in on the mystery. How do you brake properly on a single pivot bike?
Not calling anyone out here...just let us in on the mystery. How do you brake properly on a single pivot bike?
it comes down to personal preference. I've got a floater on my F5 and so far it's been doing good. The wheel tracks on heavier braking and the rear end doesnt pack up... A lot of my Chumba colleagues run their F5s without the floater as they prefer the rear to skip a little bit more... it all comes down to what your cup of tea is... I would definitely run a 160mm rotor or something like that in the rear though. Eliminates the noise and vibrations some on here were mentioning...
those floaters on the Chumas are interesting. do you ever bash the arm?
nope... even let Chumba use my bike as a demo bike the 4 months i was out cause of injury... came back fine even after 5 states...
That phrase is a little bit of a joke... it's more the opposite of what it literally means.
It means don't brake, or brake less. IE, if you're in a section that's rocky enough that you're getting noticeable brake jack, get off the brakes. The rocks will control your speed. I know it sounds counter intuitive, but just try it. You'll see.
Also, don't grab a handful of brakes unless absolutely necessary. Sudden braking causes it too. Brakes modulate. Use it to your advantage.
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is it worth it on say the new bullit? only 7" travel , and not dh specific
I've got a couple scratches on mine. No bends though, and I've even layed it down a few times at Mt Penn and Diablo.
I really prefer having a floater on my F5. It allows you to panic brake whenever if needed, without having to worry about the suspension locking up. I have a Bottlerocket too and it pretty much turns into a hardtail when you hit the brakes.
As far as proper braking technique on a SP....
Only brake in a straight line on smooth ground
Does pivot placement play part in the effectiveness of the floating brake?
For example my Foes has the main pivot mounted just above the bb.
My Session10 has the pivot mounted high above the bottom bracket.
Would mounting the pivot forward or backward of the BB(a central location) have any effect on how much "brake jack" you get?
I feel no difference between riding my Foes with the foating brake and the Trek without. Maybe some of that could be attributed to the Sessions suspnsion being plush and the Foes having the platform Curnutt providing a similar feeling in chatter with the brakes on?
Can a floating brake arm be poorly placed resulting in suffering performance?
-Kevin
For example my Foes has the main pivot mounted just above the bb.
My Session10 has the pivot mounted high above the bottom bracket.
Would mounting the pivot forward or backward of the BB(a central location) have any effect on how much "brake jack" you get?
I feel no difference between riding my Foes with the foating brake and the Trek without. Maybe some of that could be attributed to the Sessions suspnsion being plush and the Foes having the platform Curnutt providing a similar feeling in chatter with the brakes on?
Can a floating brake arm be poorly placed resulting in suffering performance?
-Kevin
from what I understand, pivot placement has to with alot of braking forces, efficiency while pedaling, overall frame sensitivity and ability to clear objects... but then again there are a lot of people who would know more than I do. I used to ride a single pivot and on my first dh (coming from a karpiel) the back suspension locked up so much I was thrown off my bike. You do in the end "learn" how to brake. For example, you learn to take smoother lines in a section that requieres hard braking, or simply taking alternate lines. I also tryied brake in short burts. I have on the other hand tryied sp with floating brakes, and as said its a worlds difference, although I wish they would make them in carbon, other wise its like a whole extra pound of weight on the bike, but its totally worth it.
Never had any issues hitting my F5 floater either. I actually swapped over to the floater mount from my old Zulu dh frame to have a little lower profile under the rear swingarm and less flex from the arm (I can get a pic if needed). With the floater I seem to have a better control of the rear of the bike on steep loose terain compared to my buddies without floaters.
Robert
Lots of questions...
In general:
The higher the pivot, the more brake induced compression of the rear suspension.
Floater geometry is a little more complicated, but if you think about the forces involved and what the resulting action would be...you can tell the general result. It is possible to implement a floater to counteract OR increase the squat effect from braking.
On a related note, my 05 DHR had better braking performance IMO than my Fly (with floater) although they had nearly identical pivot locations. The different shocks (Fox vs curnutt) were the only other real variable.....
Waste of time and money in my opinion. Learning the character and attitude of your bike under brakes makes the biggest difference. Stuffing around with things like that just means you have to relearn everything all over again.
It all has to do with the position of the main pivot
A single pivot(w/o floater) has the potential to brake as good as some of the best linkage bikes out there(the ones designed to have a little of brake squat)
If anyone has that linkage program running compare for example 2009 224 orange bike VS IH sunday at sag point.
You will notice that the orange only about 10% more brake squat.
I have always been a linkage fan but once you realise that you need some amount of brake squat one comes to the conclusion that a properly built SP can be just as active under braking!(again compared to medium squating bikes ala IH sunday,giant glory etc..)
The trick is to have the pivot far foward
A single pivot(w/o floater) has the potential to brake as good as some of the best linkage bikes out there(the ones designed to have a little of brake squat)
If anyone has that linkage program running compare for example 2009 224 orange bike VS IH sunday at sag point.
You will notice that the orange only about 10% more brake squat.
I have always been a linkage fan but once you realise that you need some amount of brake squat one comes to the conclusion that a properly built SP can be just as active under braking!(again compared to medium squating bikes ala IH sunday,giant glory etc..)
The trick is to have the pivot far foward
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i used to ride an orange 222 a few years back.i was moving to it from a bighit(fourbar or whatever,so no brakejack) and couldnt believe the amount of brakejack that i had to put up with on the orange.it had a very high pivot,way above the bb and would be like a hardtail under any sort of braking.
once i had it a while,i got to feel my way into how to ride it.single pivots are amazing if you just let them go and dont worry about the back end.you will be rewarded with smoothness by staying off the brakes through the rough stuff.the morewood izumu is a far more advenced bike and is similar to the 06-onwards 224.it shouldnt really need a brake arm,as the pivot is pretty close to the bb,like the 224 which doesnt use one.
u might benefit from the brake arm,but i would just leave it,save the weight and stay off the brakes a bit more through the gnar stuff for a smoother,faster ride...
once i had it a while,i got to feel my way into how to ride it.single pivots are amazing if you just let them go and dont worry about the back end.you will be rewarded with smoothness by staying off the brakes through the rough stuff.the morewood izumu is a far more advenced bike and is similar to the 06-onwards 224.it shouldnt really need a brake arm,as the pivot is pretty close to the bb,like the 224 which doesnt use one.
u might benefit from the brake arm,but i would just leave it,save the weight and stay off the brakes a bit more through the gnar stuff for a smoother,faster ride...
Learning how and when to brake is obviously a good thing, but there is nothing wrong with having more options on when you can brake, and that is what a floater will give you.
There a little extra money and weight, but in my opinion very worth it.
There a little extra money and weight, but in my opinion very worth it.
The izimu without a dobt is super plush. And really, I would never want to deal with the linkages that the M6, V10, etc, come with. I can fully relate to ( the correct way to brake ) that you guys are refuring to. Really, it is the complete opposite to that of a moto ( braking super late ). It really teaches you to brake before and carry speed into the turn. To me, that is the way it should be.
i had one of the old izumis that had a floater option. I ran it for about a year. It started making loads of noise so i took it off. The bike was noticeably less stable under braking when in rough ground but once i got used to it and got the braking technique dialled I never looked back. It saved a load of weight and didn't make much of a difference to the performance so why bother. Morewood have since ditched the floating brake as they also think its not necessary.
One of the earlier posters got it right. It is not that braking is completely different on a SP, it is just that the effects are more pronounced. It is, as was said, counter-intuitive. Brake on the smooth stuff, stay off 'em in the chunder - even though the gut instinct is to do the exact opposite. You should do this on every bike, but on a SP the difference it makes is amplified. This is way easier to talk about than it is to do. Took me a long time to figure it out. Rather, it took me a long time to overcome the gut response, even when I knew it was not helping.
The other point that I have to second is to modulate rather than grab a handful of brake. This is why my old Hayes Mags were not the best on my bike; they were either off or on which, when combined with the characteristics of a SP made for some really sketchy situations. Avid Juicy's (and more experience) fixed things.
The other point that I have to second is to modulate rather than grab a handful of brake. This is why my old Hayes Mags were not the best on my bike; they were either off or on which, when combined with the characteristics of a SP made for some really sketchy situations. Avid Juicy's (and more experience) fixed things.
yep, little tiny pulses of rear brake instead of one big fist-ful.
also, having your rear shock tuned properly helps a bit too.
I rode a Shova LT for over a year and never once did I get done a run anywhere and say "man I wish I had a little less brake jack on that run, I woulda been 10 seconds faster." My buddy tried a floater on his Izimu for a couple days and ended up taking it off, it was a hassle, made lots of noise and really didn't improve anything. IMO there are much better places/parts of my bike to rack my brain trying to figure out than the relationship between brake jack and SP performance.
there is some good footage of suspension performance under braking starting around :40 seconds in.
http://freecaster.tv/mtb/1007695/sea-otter-classic-dh-finals
perhaps film is a better judge than the seat of your pants. may be there are some better examples elsewhere. I have been riding SP for years and usually brake after the braking bumps. If I can carry speed further and stop faster due to increased wheel downforce under braking it would seen to be quite desirable. I also think I have heard that Barel uses a reversed floater seemingly to increase this same effect.
floating brakes on motos are pretty lame and prevent proper weight transfer under braking. perhaps the same is true on MTB's. It may also be true that suspension path has a lot to do with brake-effect and bikes with many pivots have the same braking qualities as a SP with a similar suspension path if the mounting of the caliper lacks the leverage to effect the chassis.
http://freecaster.tv/mtb/1007695/sea-otter-classic-dh-finals
perhaps film is a better judge than the seat of your pants. may be there are some better examples elsewhere. I have been riding SP for years and usually brake after the braking bumps. If I can carry speed further and stop faster due to increased wheel downforce under braking it would seen to be quite desirable. I also think I have heard that Barel uses a reversed floater seemingly to increase this same effect.
floating brakes on motos are pretty lame and prevent proper weight transfer under braking. perhaps the same is true on MTB's. It may also be true that suspension path has a lot to do with brake-effect and bikes with many pivots have the same braking qualities as a SP with a similar suspension path if the mounting of the caliper lacks the leverage to effect the chassis.