[Thepagoda]

In reading the letter that patconnole posted (which is a good read, regardless of your disposition you should read it) I was reminded of something that has been bothering me for some time now. I happened to be overseas in an islamic country (Indonesia) when the terrorists attacked on 9/11. (I only make the note that it is islamic because these days everybody seems to think that they are all terrorists, what happened to freedom of religion?) The reaction that the people there had was one of sincere compassion for our position. Indeed, most of the world felt the need to provide some empathy for the USA. Now world view has changed, and it was not of its own volition. World view has changed because the good 'ol USA has bullied and pushed themselves around the globe. The war in Iraq, aside from the immediate implications has much longer reaching consequences than the control over the oil fields in Iraq. This "Preemptive" strike against the "axis of evil" has changed the tune of the way we are seen. We are alienating ourselves. There is only one consequence to continued actions such as these. Look at history and you will see the future. Bush has translated the US into the romans, and the rest of the world into the huns. (we'll let the french stand as visigoths they are.) Are the implications now clear?

The twin towers will not be rebuilt by whipping the country into a fervor over a war that has been conjured. This is not a peace keeping mission, it is not a humanitarian mission and this is not a diplomatic mission, this is a power play. In a post cold war world, the only surviving superpower is unilaterally showing its might by flexing its muscles and ignoring the rest of the world. We are about to enter into an age where anti-americanism is the standard rather than the exception. These days if you tell somebody overseas you are american, then they think that you are going to try something on them. Its better to be canadian with our accent...

For those of you Americans reading this that think I am a tree hugging hippie and a traitorous bastard, think about this: I am one of your countrymen and I have a right to free speech. Most importantly though you ought ot consider that I want to love my country, I would like very much to be proud of it, but bought elections and conjured wars are something that reeks too much to be proud of. Someday I hope to be proud of my country once again.

 

[Spud]

“We have begun to dismantle the largest and most effective web of international relationships the world has ever known. Our current course will bring instability and danger, not security."
John Brady Kiesling, career U.S. diplomat in his resignation letter to Colin Powell.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Thepagoda

For those of you Americans reading this that think I am a tree hugging hippie and a traitorous bastard, think about this: I am one of your countrymen and I have a right to free speech. Most importantly though you ought ot consider that I want to love my country, I would like very much to be proud of it, but bought elections and conjured wars are something that reeks too much to be proud of. Someday I hope to be proud of my country once again.

Well I'm still proud of the US, no matter what people think. And if I travel abroad, I won't hide and say I'm Canadian. If something happens to me, then so be it. If it's your time to go, then it's your time to go, and there's nothing you can do about it.

So to me it sounds like you're a coward, while you stand behind the freedoms of the US that was provided by the military.

Better yet, you could just move to Canada

 

[Drunken_Ninja]

i don't think that many americans will move to canada despite the inner conflicts that america has regarding its latest political decisions.

i don't understand canadas position though i do understand that people wanted to see the iraq conflict settled without war. it isn't wrong for people to feel empathy towards the peace process as opposed to war.

canada didn't get left out of the decision the u.s. made. They had ample opportunity like everyone else in the days leading up to the u.s. deadline. there was a failure of leadership on our part to reach a peaceful comprimise.

the general enthusiasm here switched to the potential humanitarian crisis at hand. rebuilding iraq. i can imagine that it is possible for one to lean more towards the humanitarian issues at this time since war the work of sociopaths. seems only human to me.

the u.s. made a solid decision. they lead everyone. it was strongly felt that fewer people would die as a result of a violent conflict rather than a peaceful comprimise.

~shrugs~ I cannot tell you who is right or wrong here. Canada does what Canada does, they are still strongly supporting a war against terrorism. There are just limited resources here for war. That is all. It isn't some kind of peacenik thing to be canadian.

 

[valve bouncer]

Originally posted by Freak
Well I'm still proud of the US, no matter what people think. And if I travel abroad, I won't hide and say I'm Canadian. If something happens to me, then so be it. If it's your time to go, then it's your time to go, and there's nothing you can do about it.

So to me it sounds like you're a coward, while you stand behind the freedoms of the US that was provided by the military.

Better yet, you could just move to Canada

Please explain to me exactly how he is a coward. This labelling of people as cowards and traitors in not patriotism but jingoism. Answer his points without the "love it or leave it" rhetoric that has been so thoroughly discredited here and elsewhere.

 

[Thepagoda]

It is not a matter of what other people think that inhibits my pride for this country, it is what I think that inhibits my pride. true, this country has afforded me many liberties that I no doubt take for granted as I sit here typing this diatribe, but that is no reason for me to blindly follow the elephant into battle. OK, so call me a coward, but at least I don't sit here talking about supporting a war. If you believe in it so much, go fight it too. Maybe you should donate your time to the reserves if you haven't already.

As for the comment on it being better to be canadian, this is merely a reflection of the prejudices we are cultivating overseas with the newfangled fight against the "axis of evil." The world does not have any preconcieved notions that you are there to exploit them or beat them up in some way if you are canadian, simply because of their lack of imperialist efforts. I never said Canada was right and we are wrong, and the issue is not black and white like that anyhow.

I don't hide and say that I'm canadian. I am american, but not so proud of it anymore. Think of the situation more like this: early on in the 20th century being jewish came with its common prejudices, so many jews, in response to this, would claim not to be jewish so that they could get a job, get married, buy a car or get a loan. this does not mean that they didn't want to be jewish, it is just a reaction to their surroundings that helps them get through.

I could just move to canada, but that wouldn't solve the problems I am adressing, that would be cowardice. it is better for me to stay and adress the problems I have rather than turning my back on them.

 

[Tenchiro]

There is a big difference between loving your country and loving your government.

 

[patconnole]

My country right or wrong....
My government right or wrong.....
Death to the enemy...... whoever they may be.... whomever I'm told they are.




"...a genuine universalism is possible, but only as a result of a struggle against patriotism and nationalism."

 

[Spud]

What can Eritrea possibly do to help the US in Iraq?

Emma Brockes phones the embassies of the 'coalition of the willing'

Story from the Guardian

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Thepagoda
These days if you tell somebody overseas you are american, then they think that you are going to try something on them. Its better to be canadian with our accent...

Why the hell would I go abroad and say I'm Canadian? This is what I'm talking about when I say being a coward!

Originally posted by valve bouncer
Please explain to me exactly how he is a coward. This labelling of people as cowards and traitors in not patriotism but jingoism.

Coward explained.

Patriotism is being proud of your country and saying you're American, even if the gov't pisses you off.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Thepagoda
If you believe in it so much, go fight it too. Maybe you should donate your time to the reserves if you haven't already.

I've been there...I've done that. I've been shot at and had grenades and RPG's explode all around me. If it came down to it, I would go back in a heartbeat.

So don't go telling me to go fight the war...

I would almost rather trade all of the protesters for the poor, and food deprived Iraqi's that are happy that we are there.

 

[dh girlie]

Originally posted by Thepagoda
OK, so call me a coward, but at least I don't sit here talking about supporting a war. If you believe in it so much, go fight it too. Maybe you should donate your time to the reserves if you haven't already.

Ummm...not to butt in here but I believe Freak has already donated his time...in the Gulf war...

 

[Velocity Girl]

Originally posted by Thepagoda
It is not a matter of what other people think that inhibits my pride for this country, it is what I think that inhibits my pride. true, this country has afforded me many liberties that I no doubt take for granted as I sit here typing this diatribe, but that is no reason for me to blindly follow the elephant into battle. OK, so call me a coward, but at least I don't sit here talking about supporting a war. If you believe in it so much, go fight it too. Maybe you should donate your time to the reserves if you haven't already.

Why is it that just because someone supports the war they should automatically go sign up to fight??? This is such a blind and ignorant view of how our military functions. The men and women who are in the armed forces are trained professionals....they didn't get that way overnight. I think taking that attitude diminishes the hard work they have put into their training. And I for one am damn glad that there are men and women who have committed themselves to protecting me and my country.

 

[Tenchiro]

I feel like I am the only person who doesn't know why we are attacking Iraq...

They say it is to protect America, but Iraq really hasn't ever caused us any direct harm. They say that Iraq is in league with Al-Qaeda, but nobody has ever established proof of this. They say it is because Saddam is a tyrant who is neck deep in human rights violations, but he is really only one of many. They say it is because he has/had weapons of mass destruction, in fact he has used them in combat with Iran as well as on rebels in his own country, but many countries posess these weapons.

 

[Thepagoda]

why is it that if you think about the long term consequences of going to war in this pretext you are considered a bumbling liberal idiot and a coward? (please read the note on my post #2, paragraph 3 concerning the specific allegations that I am a coward before responding again in a like manner.) There are lots of support missions that you could perform at home, but my guess is that most of the advocates of the war would rather play Xbox and call people who question it tree hugging hippies influenced by the liberal media than go out and actively support the cause. have you seen a pro-war rally lately? Not too likely. The reasons for this belong in another post regarding media.

As for having been there and done that: good. I am glad that (and I am sincerely NOT being facitious here) you have that perspective, it is something a lot of us lack. I still stand by my assertions about the implications of being american in the world today. I think that I would venturing on a very sharp razor by being being proud of my country even if I don't like what it does. There were certainly enough Nazis in that position under Hitler, there were those that killed millions in russia under Stalin and those too that serve "patriotically" under Saddam to mention just a few of the most recent debacles of patriotism in the context that Mr. Freak has offered.

I don't doubt that Saddam is a terrible dictator, it probably is true that he has chemicle weapons, he may be working on a Nuke program, but as Mr. Tenchiro says, there are plenty of other countries (without oil) that fall into this category. We don't seem to be committing very many troops to assuring that the nuclear warheads in the shattered Societ Union don't leak out. we haven't been over there taking care of the scientists to make sure that terrorist organizations with hundreds of millions of dollars don't hire them to make the so called weapons of mass destruction. China has had a lifelong poor track record of terrible human right violations, but we aren't over there. Do you see us in North Korea who actually told us that they have a Nuclear program, who we know has human right violations and massive impoverishment, and who we also allege has ties to Al-Qaeda and is in the "axis of evil." North Korea actually has a missile program that is capable or reaching the western US in the recent future, and will likely have nukes soon. I don't advocate the bombing of N. Korea any more than I advocate the bombing of iraq on the current pretext, I just point them out because they are blantant incongruencies in what seems to be the general sentiment for supporting the war. The reasons for this war have been conjured up and tailor fit to a country that feels jeopardized by the attacks of 9/11, has some sort of compassion for human rights and is concerned over the rising price of oil.

This war offers any nation in the alleged "axis of evil" to feel sincerely and legitimately threatened by the United States. If they feel that war is inevitable, they do not have much to lose by sponsoring terrorist activites (as they are already alleged to), attacking our citizens abroad and at home (whichis how WE reacted to the Iraqi "threat, ") or by attacking us outright as Japan did when their economic industry was strangled by our sanctions. (There is more to the Pacific war than Pearl Harbor.)

The original point of this post was to get people to think of the international consequences of this war, yet only Mr. Spud and Mr. Tenchiro have touched on them.

 

[streetweapon_dh]

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!




I am proud of my country and all of the brave men in the coalition regardless of their homeland, race, or religion. I do think It sucks that this had to happen, but saddam and his thugs are scumbags who need to be erased.

 

[Drunken_Ninja]

Originally posted by Thepagoda
The original point of this post was to get people to think of the international consequences of this war, yet only Mr. Spud and Mr. Tenchiro have touched on them.

I think that america is an imperialist society. I do not think that america or great britain should have any part in a post war iraq. when they are finished removing the regime they should stand aside and let the rest of the world deal with the mess left behind.

If the USA does not stand aside and choses to use this war in an opportunistic fashion in an attempt at world domination, i will be very upset and angry.

It is disturbing enough what i have seen today and even though i formerly claimed that i wanted to see this assault happen I was mistaken. This is the most terrible abuse of power i have ever witnessed in my lifetime initiated by the US.

I am content that Canada did not have a full part in what is currently happening. That is all. I don't begrudge the difficult decision that has been made on the part of the u.s. it just should have never come to this.

I am stuggling to learn leadership at a masters degree level and I just hope that as a lesson for our children, this war should be used as an example of poor leadership and that leadership should become a part of a childs education.

 

[spincrazy]

Originally posted by Tenchiro
There is a big difference between loving your country and loving your government.

Phuckin' A right!

 

[Spud]

Dope, wrong post....

My Bad.