Orange 322 Prototype DH bike

bejebous all I am hearing regurgitated marketing hype about axel path, blah blah blah..

They moved the upper shock mount to make the frame less regressive - GREAT MOVE AND IT WILL BE AN IMPROVEMENT ON AN ALREADY GREAT BIKE.

Ive been riding a very similar single pivot bike that used the same principle to optimize the shock rate that was released back in 09 and has a 3in shock... But always everyone jumps to "it looks like a big hit grom, looks like they have copied norco with bendy tubes"...

Ian Collins said:

I personally think the design is a little dated...

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I bet that new Orange is a couple pounds lighter than any of DW's designs. I'm also really not sure which is the more dated to be honest? The functional simplicity of that Orange makes a lot of bikes look like a total mess to me.

If the rate has been changed to be more progressive I'd definitely have one.

JCL said:

I bet that new Orange is a couple pounds lighter than any of DW's designs. I'm also really not sure which is the more dated to be honest? The functional simplicity of that Orange makes a lot of bikes look like a total mess to me.

If the rate has been changed to be more progressive I'd definitely have one.

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Medium dhr is 10 lbs with shock and coil spring. I highly doubt this is an 8 lb frame with shock....single pivots have been around longer than Christ. Hell didn't the Germans have suspended SP bikes in WW2? Weagle is in his late thirties(I think)

Single pivots are either ever so slightly rising rate, falling rate or linear in nature. I don't think they can be made to be all that progressive....at least not even close to a bike with a linkage.

Ian Collins said:

Medium dhr is 10 lbs with shock and coil spring. I highly doubt this is an 8 lb frame with shock....single pivots have been around longer than Christ. Hell didn't the Germans have suspended SP bikes in WW2? Weagle is in his late thirties(I think)

Single pivots are either ever so slightly rising rate, falling rate or linear in nature. I don't think they can be made to be all that progressive....at least not even close to a bike with a linkage.

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The 224 was 9lbs with shock and steel spring and Orange say they've taken a pound off the frame... The dated aspect I was referring to was the design. Adding complexity and making a bike look like a collapsed funfair ride doesn't always make it less 'dated'.

No, it doesn't need to have a progressive rate, just less regressive than the 224. Another attraction for me is the absence of large rate changes in the design as it only detracts from the predictability of the suspension in riding and shock tuning adjustments. I believe the latter was a reason Honda chose a non linkage activated single pivot for the RN01.

Maybe one day I can "upgrade" to a solid-rear-axle car...

^^^ Vehicle dynamics are not even on the same page between a mtb and a car - no comparison sorry

Jm_ said:

Maybe one day I can "upgrade" to a solid-rear-axle car...

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Maybe a new Golf GTi? They have torsion beam rear suspension which is effectively a solid axle. Probably the best handling small car in the North American market with the possible exception of the Cooper S.

JCL said:

Maybe a new Golf GTi? They have torsion beam rear suspension which is effectively a solid axle. Probably the best handling small car in the North American market with the possible exception of the Cooper S.

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JCL said:

The 224 was 9lbs with shock and steel spring

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have to dig up the thread, but I believe they're close to 9 lbs w/o shock; ie, relatively porky despite their simplicity.

ah, here:

How important is this update for Orange to start a 3 series? Not very, imo

yeah that at least had five more numbers they could have used - 226, 227, 228
or 226.5

or 225 stranger

that would have been too obvious...

xy9ine said:

have to dig up the thread, but I believe they're close to 9 lbs w/o shock; ie, relatively porky despite their simplicity.

ah, here:

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I stand corrected. Heavier than I thought for sure.

http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.php?size=full&src=http://i4.pinkbike.com/photo/1609/pbpic1609337.jpg

still nicer

JCL said:

Maybe a new Golf GTi? They have torsion beam rear suspension which is effectively a solid axle. Probably the best handling small car in the North American market with the possible exception of the Cooper S.

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Off topic - but that's not correct, the Golf GTi uses struts at the front and a multilink rear setup on its own subframe (i.e. independent / wishbone style), not torsion beam. Same for most cars within that class / weight. Smaller cars like the Renault Clio Sport use it though and they handle pretty well so maybe that would have been a better example.

JCL said:

I stand corrected. Heavier than I thought for sure.

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That scale is off or the frame is carrying some hidden weight.

I have raced three different 224's over the past 4 years and all of the frames weighed in at around 8.5 lbs without a rear shock or spring, or just a little over 10 lbs with a Fox RC4 and Ti spring on board.

You can easily get a build under 38lbs with one of these.

JCL said:

I stand corrected. Heavier than I thought for sure.

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alot heavier...i was gonna say...8 lbs with shock and coil is light weight trail bike light....that would make me pretty weary of it's strength....

don't get me wrong, they're light simple structurally sound stiff bikes with nice geo adjustments and they have their perks but i just think that better suspension CAN be achieved in a comparable chassis while still maintaining the aforementioned positive attributes....

Udi said:

Off topic - but that's not correct, the Golf GTi uses struts at the front and a multilink rear setup on its own subframe (i.e. independent / wishbone style), not torsion beam. Same for most cars within that class / weight. Smaller cars like the Renault Clio Sport use it though and they handle pretty well so maybe that would have been a better example.

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I think it was torsion beam in the Mk4? I didn't know the Mk5 had IRS though.

Yes the Clio, older Peugeot or a CTR would have been a better example but I was trying to keep a North American perspective

Ian Collins said:

it has a linkage which prevents bottoming and gives a controlled rate, plus helps keeps it up in it's travel(dw link) pedals better, better axle path for carrying speed over mid sized hits....let me count the ways....

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The new proto is made also to have "a controlled rate". They messed up with the pivot placement - less feedback but the axle path would also have been good and it would pedal decent while being simple. Actually you can have most of it if not all if you can live with some pedal feedback. BTW. What dw-link bike? Because I hope you don't claim sunday stays high in its travel
Those are really relative terms you speak about. Yeah - in theory a linkage driven single pivot seems like a better option but if with this shock they get what they wanted why add linkage?

norbar said:

The new proto is made also to have "a controlled rate".

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Oh, thank god for that.

JCL said:

The 224 was 9lbs with shock and steel spring and Orange say they've taken a pound off the frame... The dated aspect I was referring to was the design. Adding complexity and making a bike look like a collapsed funfair ride doesn't always make it less 'dated'.

No, it doesn't need to have a progressive rate, just less regressive than the 224. Another attraction for me is the absence of large rate changes in the design as it only detracts from the predictability of the suspension in riding and shock tuning adjustments. I believe the latter was a reason Honda chose a non linkage activated single pivot for the RN01.

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Linkages don't seem to confuse anyone on MX bikes, and no bikes these days have such rapid rate changes that they become unpredictable. The Rn01 had a huge gearbox, where were they actually going to fit a linkage in there whilst keeping it light enough and structurally sound?

norbar said:

The new proto is made also to have "a controlled rate". They messed up with the pivot placement - less feedback but the axle path would also have been good and it would pedal decent while being simple. Actually you can have most of it if not all if you can live with some pedal feedback. BTW. What dw-link bike? Because I hope you don't claim sunday stays high in its travel
Those are really relative terms you speak about. Yeah - in theory a linkage driven single pivot seems like a better option but if with this shock they get what they wanted why add linkage?

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Well yeah that's always been the question - "why add a linkage?". The answer is because at best all you can get with a normal singlepivot is a more or less dead linear rate. However, linear rates are usually less than "ideal" in my opinion simply because they ignore the fact that the scale of forces acting on the rear suspension is typically somewhat logarithmic - in other words, using 5" of travel instead of 0.5" of travel doesn't result in 10x as much force transmission or energy dissipation, but in actual fact might require 50x more. For suspension to move at all over small stuff, it has to be very soft and supple, but for it to not bottom out all the time within a reasonable distance of wheel travel, it has to be pretty firm.

Anyway - looks like another gradual progression in the Orange frames. The 222/3s had great geometry but garbage suspension, the 224 was a distinct improvement in suspension but still pedals pretty wack and is super easy to bottom out. This one isn't going to be hugely amazing in terms of bottom out resistance, nor will it pedal unbelievably well, but I think it'll be small improvements in both.

Socket said:

Well yeah that's always been the question - "why add a linkage?". The answer is because at best all you can get with a normal singlepivot is a more or less dead linear rate. However, linear rates are usually less than "ideal" in my opinion simply because they ignore the fact that the scale of forces acting on the rear suspension is typically somewhat logarithmic - in other words, using 5" of travel instead of 0.5" of travel doesn't result in 10x as much force transmission or energy dissipation, but in actual fact might require 50x more. For suspension to move at all over small stuff, it has to be very soft and supple, but for it to not bottom out all the time within a reasonable distance of wheel travel, it has to be pretty firm.

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There are 2 sides of the coin here. I agree with you that linkage helps to deal with real life forcess better from a technical point of view but also rapid changes in the leverage ratio simply feel bad for many riders and make you loose balance. Many riders prefer linear rate for that reason.

Though I agree the orange suspension is not perfect. I just don't see it as a reason to write off the bike. There are many VPP bikes that are far from perfect too. Suspension is important but a good bike is a sum of many factors and in many ways oranges are better than some of their much hyped competition.

Sandwich said:

so outdated. who would be caught dead on one of these?

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good eye and thank you for proving my point....that bike has FOUR pivots and not only does it have a rate modifying linkage, it's axle path also is modified by the pivot in front of the axle....

one of the biggest struggles with the push for gearbox is trying to design one that can incorporate a linkage....read socket's post above on the advantages they give bikes and you'll understand why....

below is a picture so show you ALL FOUR PIVOTS....

http://www.nsmb.com/assets/images/A-events2009/zerode/4.jpg

trek, evil, commencal...all single pivots

Sandwich said:

what? dude it's a single pivot bike. The axle is connected to the swingarm. Even if it were mounted where you seem to think it is, that's still connected to the swingarm and main pivot. There's no horst link or funny business. I'll give you that it does have a rate modifying linkage, but the bike is still a damn single pivot. Your post didn't qualify _what_ single pivots are so "outdated". Socket's reply simply stated that single pivots without rate-modifying linkages are garbage in the modern world of DH racing, which I'll bite...they've always been garbage....but to say that single pivots are outdated would have a lot of world cup DH riders wondering why their commencals treks etc. suddenly can't keep up on the internets.

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i stand corrected regarding axle path based on where it mounts...i forgot it was high pivot....but yeah what was saying is that straight up single pivots are outdated....a single pivot with a rate modifying linkage is not...i figured what i was discussing was clear since we're talking about an orange without any linkage of any sort

IH8Rice said:

trek, evil, commencal...all single pivots

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yes but with rate modifying linkages....vastly different from the orange we were discussing...it's apples to oranges(no pun)

Ummmm.... Ian?

The zerode is a single pivot. The pivot in front of the axle pulls the chain stay which pulls the swing link. The linkage only modifies the shock rate, and I would imagine also allows the zerode to keep the cog low and to help with the packaging.

modified single pivots are still single pivots. Including split pivot, delta, my makulu, etc. that topic has been beaten to death. Split pivot, delta, etc all get their pedaling traits, wheel path etc from their pivot placement (ok, pedaling is more complicated).

In my opinion, for advanced riders, brake squat doesn't hurt a thing, so it comes down to pedaling, grip, square edge compliance, big hit resistance, and most important to me, a predictable mid stroke with which I can push off from.

My makulu achieves all of this much better than any vpp, dw, fsr bike I've ridden to this point. I'm sure having a low leverage shock tuned for the frame is a big part of it. In fact, I think shock tuning and a decent leverage rate is most of it. Having a fancy linkage certainly isn't. I love the new sc's and turners, but even if you read the dirt reviews, their favorite bikes are mostly single pivots (makulu, session, sp wilson, 22x).

Besides, geometry matters way more than suspension anyway.

Ian Collins said:

it's axle path also is modified by the pivot in front of the axle....

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No, it is not. Seeing this is more simple than simple. The dropout is on the "seatstay" which is attached to the main pivot, and thus the chainstay and the pivot attached to it have no effect on axle path.

EDIT: WBC beat me to it.

@wbc and slater...i just noticed...i was looking at it like a lo pivot and the chainstay pivot interrupted between axle and what i was thinking was the main pivot...my bad....i totally realize the difference...i was referring to the orange as a single pivot loosely as it doesn't have a linkage at all

edit: i already acknowledged this in #68

I bet Orange won't take orders and then take 2+ years to bring that bike to market, need 3 updates to get the shock linkage to stay tight, or deliver misaligned frames. . . .

I heard it will buck you though

General Lee said:

I bet Orange won't take orders and then take 2+ years to bring that bike to market, need 3 updates to get the shock linkage to stay tight, or deliver misaligned frames. . . .

I heard it will buck you though

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--i was testing a proto just over two years ago so i doubt anyone paid for a bike 2+ years ago, and if they did, i'm sure the company you're dancing around the subject of mentioning didn't ask them for a deposit

--there were two renditions of that linkage and the second one is the production linkage, plus it's mounted to a completely redesigned frame...i'm sure if you were designing a bike your alpha prototype would go straight to production cause you'd nail it the first time around (edit: didn't your beloved sundays and revolts have hardware issues first time through as well?)

haven't heard anything about misaligned frames...mine's spot on and i'm loving it....it was worth well worth the wait....i'm a big turner whore, not gonna lie but i've had great luck with them for 10 years and they're top notch in customer service....they have their kinks and hiccups but they're a very small company on a pretty tight budget, it's to be expected....they always take care of people and don't leave their customer high and dry....

Ian Collins said:

--i was testing a proto just over two years ago so i doubt anyone paid for a bike 2+ years ago, and if they did, i'm sure the company you're dancing around the subject of mentioning didn't ask them for a deposit

--there were two renditions of that linkage and the second one is the production linkage, and it's mounted to a completely redesigned frame...i'm sure if you were designing a bike your alpha prototype would go straight to production cause you'd nail it the first time around

haven't heard anything about misaligned frames...mine's spot on and i'm loving it....it was worth well worth the wait....i'm a big turner whore, not gonna lie but i've had great luck with them for 10 years and they're top notch in customer service....they have their kinks and hiccups but they're a very small company on a pretty tight budget, it's to be expected....they always take care of people and don't leave their customer high and dry....

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A lot of posts in here I wouldn't expect from you. So is it too much of the cool-aid or just feeling a bit sensitive/defensive today? Not sure how you assumed I was referring to Turner specifically (3 trys to get the linkage right sounds like the Sunday to me. . . ). Dancing around nothing, I'm not referring to any bike or company in particular. Those of us with non-selective memories can probably list off any number of companies over the years that failed to deliver the goods when promised, or have a reputation for doing so poorly. Orange isn't one of them.

Try not to let your Alpha bike go to your head.

It is possible to get a rising rate rear suspension with a monopivot design, just not quite the magnitude of progression as a TR450, 951, Supreme DH, etc. But, it is most definitely possible to get something that has a significant ramp up through the travel.

mtg said:

It is possible to get a rising rate rear suspension with a monopivot design, just not quite the magnitude of progression as a TR450, 951, Supreme DH, etc. But, it is most definitely possible to get something that has a significant ramp up through the travel.

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I've got plans for this very design. Uses a strut on the end of the shock like the demo uses to get a nice progressive (but dead linear) curve. If I had time and money I'd build one, because one doesn't exist in the market.

Pslide said:

I've got plans for this very design. Uses a strut on the end of the shock like the demo uses to get a nice progressive (but dead linear) curve. If I had time and money I'd build one, because one doesn't exist in the market.

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A really linear monopivot? Isn't that a simpler version of GT Fury or the 303R ?

norbar said:

A really linear monopivot? Isn't that a simpler version of GT Fury or the 303R ?

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His statement threw me off at first too, but I think he's talking about making the second derivative linear, which would be a "linear progressive" suspension. First derivative is a slope, second derivative is a flat line.