[erikkellison]

okay,
i am broken, and downdgrading from my vp-free as soon as i get the ability to sell it (physically). I need new ideas on my replacement bike.
My requirements are as follows:

1. No less than 5" of travel, no more than 6"
2. Must have a proper linkage a la DW, FSR 4-bar, VPP, Maestro, etc. NO single pivots or linkage actuated SP's (read Kona, TNT Turner, et al) need apply.
3. Uninterrupted seat tube for lots of adjustability.
4. Geometry suitable for trail riding. Not too steep. Can be too slack, but there aren't many bikes out there in this travel range that are very slack.
5. Light, but not featherlight. i weigh 180. I want to work back up to drops, and don't want to break it. No tank though, either. I have never broken a bike before. e.g. Banshees are too heavy.
6. 150mm rear a plus since I have a Hadley i like.
7. I want to put a six inch fork SC on it.

So far the list includes the following potentials, in no particular order:

• Azonic Saber
• Giant Reign
• Turner Six Pack/RFX (older linkage)
• SC Nomad

ANy other ideas? Please feel free to suggest and comment on my list. More input=better! Thanks!!

 

[Snacks]

Turner....old or new...like you can really tell the difference I have 4 Turners, 3 with the FSR and 1 with the new linkage and you can not tell the difference.

 

[greenchris]

You said no single pivot bikes but i am really, really loving my new foes fxr 2:1. It replaced my intense 5.5 not only does the fxr climb better but it can take a lickin and ask for more! You get the un-interrupted seat tube, the ability to run a 6" travel fork, and your going to get the trail bike geometry.

 

[blue]

I've always lusted after a Saber, but they have had quality/engineering issues (that and they're no longer available).

 

[particle bored]

Turner 6-Pack (2005) or RFX (2006) with Fox Van36. That's what you want. That's what you need. Look no further.

Of course I'm a bit biased since I have a 6-Pack and a 5-Spot but I've ridden and owned lots of FS rigs and Turners suit my style and terrain preferences like nothing else I've owned or ridden.

I've set up my 6-Pack with light tires and wheels, 3 chainrings, and a Sherman Firefly and done very long XC rides on it including the Test of Metal in Squamish BC. Right now it's set up a bit heavier with a burlier rear wheel, 22x34 + E13 DRS, Van 36RC2 and weighs about 35-36 lbs and still can be ridden on 4 hour rides w/o much headache. If you are lightweight-ish, say 185 lbs or lighter, and not doing big drops or jumps, you can probably run the DHX Air happily. Heavier or big drops/jumps, you will probably want DHX 5.0 coil.

A lot of the other bikes that are comparable seem to weigh a good bit more -- Specialized SX Trail is the first that comes to mind. I'd bet the SX Trail handles just as well as the 6-Pack but most of the ones I've seen come in around 38-40 lbs with midweight parts.

Try to get a ride on a friend's or a shop demo. I would be surprised if you didn't think it was the dog's bollocks.

 

[joelsman]

I love my Yeti 575, perfect trail bike, I will not be selling mine for quite a while.

 

[jaydee]

I love my Yeti 575, perfect trail bike, I will not be selling mine for quite a while.

Me too. They're great bikes. I had a Turner XCE for years and loved it. Then I broke the frame and couldn't afford another one. I was really worried about going away from the Horst link 4-bar thing, but I tried a Yeti 575 and was hooked. It performs as well or better than my Turner did. It's very light for a 5 3/4" travel bike, tough as nails, climbs like a goat (no suspension bob), and sucks up big hits on the descents. In my opinion the new platform shocks have made the Horst link 4-bar design redundant and over-complicated. Even Dave Turner has realized you can make simpler designs work, and he's the king of Horst links.

 

[arboc!]

would you consiter an enduro maybe? not the new one, the normal ones

 

[Mike B.]

MKIII or the yet to be released 6 point. Not too many bikes in this class are going to have 150mm rears though.

 

[particle bored]

In my opinion the new platform shocks have made the Horst link 4-bar design redundant and over-complicated. Even Dave Turner has realized you can make simpler designs work, and he's the king of Horst links.

I don't mean to be an e-a$$hole, but I think your opinion sounds like it's based on misinformation.

I've owned singlepivots with platforms and they perform nothing like any FSR, Horst Link or other multiple linkage bike. This is because the singlepivot has a major design weakness -- it has a lot of pedal feedback when pedaling through square, ledgy or otherwise rough terrain. This is especially a problem in climbing such terrain. Some singlepivots are designed optimally and for that reason have minimized the pedal feedback, but it's still there even if you don't notice it. Lots of riders learned on a hardtail or other singlepivot and have adapted their pedaling and climbing technique without realizing it. I found this out myself when I did the first side-by-side comparison of a singlepivot and a FSR/Horst. The difference is there, but you have to pedal constantly and not do little "pauses" for the square bumps. Most hardtail and singlepivot riders do little pauses for those bumps to make the pedaling/climbing smoother.

As to the effect of the platform -- The platform doesn't make a singlepivot perform like any multipivot. What it does is eliminate the monkey-motion that some people call "bob" and it does so by numbing the suspension action under lighter loads (the load of pedaling-induced damper compression).

The 2 points of FSR/Horst link, Turner TNT, or other (Maestro, VPP, DW-link) designs are these.

One is to get rid of pedal feedback when climbing or otherwise pedaling in chunky terrain. NO SINGLEPIVOT can eliminate that pedal feedback. NONE.

The other is to have active suspension while braking. A singlepivot will firm up under braking unless it adds linkages to drive the suspension or has a brake floater system. This is another basic engineering point that can't be got around. FSR/Horst, Turner TNT, and the Maestro-VPP-DW Link designs have active suspensions under braking. Singlepivots like an Orange or Santa Cruz Bullit or Morewood do not have that active suspension without a floater system.

These two points are the downside of singlepivot designs. Even the Yeti 575 -- an outstanding bike, a great value -- has these problems, although in degrees that differ from other singlepivots because the linkage driving the shock on the Yetis helps with the problems. (Notice also, that Yeti's two most recent DH racing designs were not basic singlepivots, and the new 303 was designed to address the problem of square-edged hits that slows down a singlepivot-design bike, so even Yeti folks recognize the problem!) The question is whether it's worth it for you to ignore those problems for other benefits the particular bike has in your typical riding conditions.

Now, if you don't mind the pedal feedback, or don't notice it, then it might seem a non-issue to you. Same with the suspension firming up under braking. There are braking techniques that will let you get around the suspension firming, the simplest of which is to try to brake where it's smoother. If not racing DH where stutter bumps are almost unavoidable, the braking adjustments are quite easy IMO.

Also, as to Turner switching to TNT, that design is not "simpler" than the FSR. It is just as complex. It merely switched the position of one of the pivot points in the multipivot linkage system. Dave Turner was the "king of Horst" because until he redesigned the system to his liking, it worked best for him. And IMO, to say that the new Turner TNT is identical to Konas is ludicrous. They only LOOK similar. No Kona I've ever ridden performs as well as a Turner. Or as well as a Ventana, for that matter, and the Kona is almost "identical" (in your lingo) to a Ventana. I've owned and ridden Ventanas and they perform much better than any Kona I've ridden, and they are almost identical in design.

While we all tend to love whatever we are riding or whatever we spent money on -- that's human nature, I think -- you should try to be more accurate and fair!

The Yeti is a great value, I should have recommended it above. Everyone I know who has one or who has ridden one has liked it quite a bit. Those reviews that haven't outright loved it have given it small negatives for the pedal feedback and a slightly waggy rear end. To many riders, those two minor negatives are negligible, especially given the 575's relatively low price tag.

okay, rant off.

 

[jacksonpt]

I too love my 575. But if you are dead set against single pivot, I'd say go VPP. Everyone I've talked to with VPP bikes swear by them. I don't notice a difference between VPP and my SP, but that's just me.

I'd say go intense or santa cruz. I happen to like Intense better (I've heard customer service nightmare stories from SC), so I'd go with the 5.5. But this is all second hand knowledge, so take it for what it's worth.

 

[ATOMICFIREBALL]

I would try & get a Santa Cruz.The bikes are strong.

Single Pivot=
HECKLER 5.6" travel

*VPP design =
BLUR LT(long travel). I would probably pick this one.

Santa Cruz NOMAD looks nice,but comes too close to the VP Free you have now...Plus it's expensive.

 

[erikkellison]

thanks for the suggestions so far!
I have ridden SP for years, just ridde VPP for a couple weeks, and have first hand knowledge of how much better a floating linkage bike is. I like pedaling through bumps and braking whenever, it is faster and more fun. So while I appreciate all the SP/SP-linkage riders chiming in with their suggestions (and thoughts as to how they're not inferior), I will not be getting one. I have a choice, and I choose to avoid marketing and inferior performance. Now, I'm not here to inflame anyone, but I want to make it clear what I want.

To make a note, I have a feeling that the difference in linkages can be more easily felt on longer travel bikes, so a 3" SP vs. a 3" VPP may be negligible because the rear wheel just isn't moving much either way. I want something compliant, and not mimicking a HT on all but the big hits - I like small bump compliance too, but that probably depends more on the shock.

In response to something above, the Turner TNT thing is also a linkage-driven SP, and while it may be better than a Kona, it is mechanically/fundamentally similar, and I don't want that kind of bike. I think DT noticed only minor differences in the shorter travel bikes w/ the relocation of the pivot, and decided to come up with a bit of marketing to support that, rather than continue to pay Specialized. All he had/has to do is convince you that the difference is minor when referring to pedal feedback and brake jack, and then start to laud the benefits (stiffness) of a SP linkage. I don't hear anyone saying that the TNT design improves rear wheel travel; they're just insisting that it doesn't harm it all that much.

I will read more about the Blur LT. I don't know how I forgot about it, but if it's strong enough, I may have a winner. I like SC, and their bikes have performed so well for me that I've never needed CS.

No Enduro's, they don't have uninterrupted seat tubes... just a terrible design for a 6' rider with one bike.

I updated the original list to include the blur lt. I would really love more comments on those bikes from riders & owners, and maybe a few less from those trying to convince me that I don't know what I need with regard to linkages.

Geometry comments, anyone?? I think I'll be putting something like a Z1 light or Z1 SL or All Mountain 1. Fox = too much $$. not hot on RS SCs, nor on manitou SCs either.

 

[Boxxer]

07 Enduro SL. No interrupted seat tube. 6 inch f/r sub 30 and in the top models, sub 27 pound.

 

[arboc!]

carbon all-mtn bikes scare me

 

[Boxxer]

carbon all-mtn bikes scare me

Me too. Carbon anything on any MTB scares me.

 

[jaydee]

Particle bored: I don't think someone is an a$$hole just because their opinion differs from mine. But I did ride and race a Turner for years before I got my 575. The Turner was an awesome machine, no argument there. I'd have another one right now if they weren't so expensive to build. I'm just saying that I don't really notice any negatives in switching from the Turner linkage to the 575 linkage. I know that techical arguments can be made and maybe even won, but the proof is on the trail, and I honestly don't feel like I've lost any performance in going to the Yeti. I like discussing suspension theory as much as the next guy; I was a racer-boy, weight-weenie techno-geek for years. But at some point it's like discussing $15,000 sound systems versus $20,000 systems. Maybe some fancy performance metrics testing can show some differences, but the human ear can't, and that's where the enjoyment comes from. I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from buying one of Dave Turner's bikes, they're the best and he's a great guy, but at this point I believe that it's a matter of personal preference, not a matter of better performance.

 

[Niq1]

There will be three Enduro Sl frames for '07- carbon, M5 and regular A1 aluminum.
Pre-release consensus from journos who've thrown a leg over one seems to be that the bike climbs like a stumpy and descends like an enduro.
I'm thinking about selling my Coilair for one. Only problem is that I know the Coilair will handle anything I throw at it- it's got a dh tubeset and an old stinky rear end.
But the '07 Enduro still calls out to the roadie/xc weight weenie in me.
And for the record, my overall vote is for a horst link. Best combo of performance and durability. VPP bikes (can, in some conditions) chew bearings like so much wrigley's spearmint.

 

[Bicyclist]

Look at a Specialized Enduro. For 07 you can still get the old models, plus the new SL style ones.

Or a Specialized Stumpjumper. They're great bikes.

 

[joelsman]

hey erik, what single pivot bikes have you had? I know you had a bullit before your vp free. remember high single pivots are much different than low ones. I have owned many single pivots, old heckler, a bullit, yeti asx, and now my 575. I have had only one hurst link bike, a yeti dh9. I noticed the lack of brake jack on the dh9 vs the bullit and asx, but the 575 doesn't really have any due to the low pivot.

all-mountain bikes don't use 150mm wide rear hubs.

the 07 enduros have bent seat tubes, which are basically interuped.

 

[Boxxer]

the 07 enduros have bent seat tubes, which are basically interuped.

Yes and no. They are bent near the bottom 1/5 of the ST. There is more than enough room to tuck or raise seat post.

 

[Mike B.]

all-mountain bikes don't use 150mm wide rear hubs.

6point will be 150mm rear and 83mm bb

 

[BIRDMAN111]

well if you can afford it the nomad is about the best bike on the face of the earth so you should get it. but if you are bad and you have a nomad people will make fun of you, but it seems like you know what you are talking about and should be a good rider.

 

[ukjason]

go for this

 

[erikkellison]

This is dwindling...
Joel, I appreciate what you said, and as I value your experience, I will consider the 575. It looks fragile though...
Anyone else, I would really appreciate some comments from riders of these bikes on their performance and geometry w/ a 6" fork. Thanks!

 

[jacksonpt]

I'm curious... have you ridden and can you actually feel the difference between a quality SP (not a department store bike... something from a company that acutally put some thought into the suspension design) and DW/VPP/etc? I mean, if you got on a bike and somehow had no idea what it was, could you tell from the saddle if it was SP or not? I've ridden both, and while I'm not an expert cyclist, nor do I spend much time racing, I can't tell the difference.

I've done all the reading and heard all the arguements against SP, but for me, from the seat of my pants, I can't tell a difference. As such, it's foolish (for me) to rule out a whole category of bikes just because of what some so called experts say.

With all that said, I have a 575 with a 125mm TALAS. Not quite the 6" fork you are looking for, but if you have any specific questions, I'm happy to answer what I can. Keep in mind though... I'm from the east coast, so the terrain I ride is probably different from what you ride.

 

[BIRDMAN111]

go for this

no way atleast get a jamis dakar xlt 3.0 those are sweet ive got one

 

[Mike B.]

I keep mentioning the 6point but since it is not available yet, I have no first hand impressions. I do have a 7point that I've ridden for lift assisted downhill, done 15-20 mile trail rides, and also did a 30+ mile dirt road ride. All with 2.5 front and 2.35 rear stick-e tires and a complete build that tips the scales at 37lbs. I also own a Loco Moto for my trail bike and have had other single pivots in the past. The Loco is the best sp bike I've been on and the reason I can't seem to part with it even after 5 years. The 7point just has an awesome ride quality but is more bike than I need for most of my riding. If you haven't ridden a DW bike, you really should give them a try. I can easily tell the difference between the sp and the DW bike in braking and climbing which is why next year the Loco is finally on the way out for either a MKIII or 6point. If there was a 29" version of the Azure, I'd seriously consider one for xc and a 6point for everything else. I've also seriously considered a 575 but I've just got to have the DW link on my next FS bike.

 

[blue]

I have had only one hurst link bike, a yeti dh9. I noticed the lack of brake jack on the dh9 vs the bullit and asx, but the 575 doesn't really have any due to the low pivot.

A) The DH9 isn't a Horst, it's a Lawill link. Different story.

B) You're high if you think a 575 doesn't have any brake jack.

The guy has made it clear he doesn't want a single-pivot bike, so STOP SUGGESTING SINGLE-PIVOTS.

In other news, my limited experience aboard a Seven Point DW-link (read: 2 minutes in the street) is that it feels very different from any other suspension design I've ridden before. Kind of a neutral feeling. But, it was 2 minutes in the street, so it's probably not worth much.

 

[kindtrails]

Check out the '06 Fxr. I ride an '04, it is amazing. pedals like a dream. You don't need fancy linkages. All you need is Curnant!

 

[kindtrails]

oh ya, I got a 6" Sherman Firefly on my FXR. Sweet geometry. The fork and the rear sus. seem to balence each other out nicely

 

[Acadian]

I'll have a long term MkIII review up on pinkbike within the next few days...can't recommend that bike enough! Best trail bike I've ever owned..

 

[erikkellison]

A) The DH9 isn't a Horst, it's a Lawill link. Different story.

B) You're high if you think a 575 doesn't have any brake jack.

The guy has made it clear he doesn't want a single-pivot bike, so STOP SUGGESTING SINGLE-PIVOTS.

Blue,
I appreciate your care for my concerns, but Joel is a smart and nice guy that I know personally, and I'm sure he means well. Leave the direction of this thread to me, please

jacksonpt:
My desire for a non-SP bike is not just theory based. I rode a Bullit for 2 years. I could feel a major difference between it and the VP-Free. I've also spent time on an AS-X and a Brodie Diablo. If you can't feel the difference between a SP like a Bullit and a linkage bike like the ones I've suggested, then something is out of whack. Besides them Free taking large impacts smoother, which isn't necessarily related to the linkage, the VPP pedals well through rough stuff and the braking doesn't cause the bike to be less stable. No one told me what to expect with the Free so much-- I felt these differences easily on my own, on my first ride.
While I can't expect you to have found it, I posted a comment (#13, I think) in THIS thread about my experuiences. Check it out.

And who cares about how good of a rider I am? What does that have to do with anything? As long as I can ride a bike, and tell for myself the differences, that should be enough...

I'm thinking that if I can find someone to trade my VP-Free for a Nomad straight up, I'll keep what I have and just swap tires, shock and fork.

So this may mean that a 6 month old Roco is for sale, as well as an even newer 888RC2X. If you have:
DHX Air
Marzocchi Z1Light
Fox 36 RC2
and want to trade, let me know! I would expect some extra money to come my way for the fork trade, but I'll trade straight up on the DHX Air (I think).

 

[Smelly]

Having ridden the Blur LT (my dad just got one), the 575 (very briefly), the 6 pack (I own one), and a Saber (used to own one), I'll chime in here.

Skip the Saber. Nice bike for the price, but you'll only be able to get one used, and you can afford better, so go for something better.

The 6pack/RFX is a different beast than the Blur LT and 575. I'd equate them with the 5 spot, which I bought and rode for half a season before switching to my 6 pack. Why'd I switch? I decided I wanted one do it all bike, so I sold my DH bike, sold my trail bike, and got something that can do both types of riding well.

I rode in Bellingham earlier this summer, and it seems to me like the Pack/RFX is a perfect bike for that area. You can take it to Whistler, you can take it shuttling, and you can do 30 mile XC rides on it. The same can't be said for the Blur LT and 575. The Pack is definitely a more versatile bike than the Blur LT or 575, but if you don't need the versatality, it's probably a bit too beefy for you. The Blur and 575 are noticably faster going uphill, but the Pack/RFX is much more willing to rip down the other side of the hill.

I live in western Mass, and our XC trails are some of the gnarliest in the country (I feel qualified to say that because I've ridden in most of the states), and the Pack is a perfect bike for me here. It's a bit heavy on the climbs, but our climbs aren't too long, and it's fun to be on a bike that can rip downhills. If I lived in a place with longer climbs, I'd probably want to lighten my bike up a little bit, but it really doesn't hinder me that much here.

My Pack is 38 lbs with DH tires, DT 6.1 rims, Juicys, a Z1 FR, 70mm Diabolus stem, heavy cranks (soon to be switched out), and I've done 6 hour, 40 mile XC rides on it without too much trouble. It seems to me that it an RFX isn't going to get much below 35lbs without taking the bike out of the realm it's intended for.

All the bikes you're looking at are really awesome bikes, it just depends on how much versatility you want. The RFX offers lots, but like all hybrids, it doesn't compare to a purpose-specific bike. It's not a DH bike, nor is it a "trail" bike, but it does both exceptionally well. The Blur and 575 are significantly lighter and faster uphill. The RFX will be more fun and faster on the downhills, plus it'll stand up to lots more abuse.

Two more things. I'm not trying to change your mind on the single pivot issue. I frankly don't care. I haven't ridden a TNT Turner, but everyone who has ridden both says there is no difference, and some of the folks on the MTBR Turner board say the TNT is actually better. I don't think there's a difference. I've noticed that most "pedal bob" actually comes from having an uneven pedal stroke and your weight shifting on the bike. Find a road and spin smooth circles, and the suspension won't move. Pedal squares and it'll go bouncy-bouncy.

The second thing concerns TT lengths on the SC and quality control at Intense. Frankly, I'd go with a Santa Cruz over an Intense. Knowing a couple people who ride Intenses and from the news on the 'net, seems to me like Intense has serious trouble putting their frames together straight. Santa Cruz's customer service may leave something to be desired, but at least you won't have to send your new frame back because it's out of whack. Also, the TT's run a bit short on the SC's. At 6', I ride a medium 6pack without much trouble, and my 5 spot was a large. My dad is also 6', and his Blur is an XL. I can't imagine someone much taller than me riding an XL unless they didn't have forearms.

EDIT: You said the bike could be too slack. What about a Canfield Balance?

 

[erikkellison]

That's what I'm talking about!!! Thanks Smelly! From your input, I think I can confidently cross the 575 and the Blur LT off my list - I had my doubts about them anyway. For now, I'm still looking to swap out my fork, shock and tires, but if I come across a RFX or a Nomad, I still might switch.

For now, I'm going to check out the Geo on the RFX, Saber, Reign, VP Free and Nomad, do some math and see how they compare.

Unless I get a shorter shock for the Free, I guarantee the bike will feel too short/twitchy/front-heavy w/ a 6-7" fork. It felt bad enough with a 180mm Dorado. The 888 w/ stock flat crowns ('06) seems to balance it perfectly.

I can't wait for SC to get their pricing back up...

 

[Smelly]

The 575 and Blur are definitely awesome bikes, but it seems they're not what you're looking for. I certainly enjoy riding my Pack more than the Blur. It's not THAT much slower or harder to ride uphill, and it feels so much more solid underneath me on the descents.

I've been wanting to try a Nomad for awhile. It seems like it's the VPP version of the RFX- tough and very versatile. The Nomad wasn't out when I got my 6 Pack, so the Pack was a no-brainer. There's really nothing else on the high end market that can be dressed up as many ways as the 6 Pack/RFX, except maybe the Nomad (whose durability has yet to be seen). The closest thing I've seen is the Kona Coiler.

I think if you really liked your Free, the Nomad would be the bike for you, so long as you can live with that henious top tube. And keep your tires. You just may want some heavy duty tires kicking around. I run DH tires for trail riding because they grip awesome, never flat, and have a smooth ride. I also have an 7" '04 888 sitting around in case I really want to rake my bike out, though I've never needed to.

Another bike to consider is the Highline with an 8.5" shock, though that'd be on the bigger side of what you want. If you're gonna do that though, you may as well try it on your Free first. For that matter, you could look into a 5 pack, that is, a RFX with 5 spot rocker links, which gives you the durability of the Pack with the geometry of a Spot.

 

[MMcG]

What about one of the new Chumba Racing bikes. They have a 6" and a 5" version available now and I they both use the horst link (FSR) set up.

They look pretty well built too. Actually very well built.

 

[McGRP01]

Kona CoilAir?

 

[erikkellison]

That Chumba Evo looks awesome! Too bad it'd cost me extra dough to get one. Seems like an awesome bike... drool, drool...

Umm, Kona's don't have the kind of linkage I consider "able." Neither does the Jamis Dakar (not to mention that it is not meant for what I plan on doing. Please read whole post b4 posting irrelevant suggestions.

I updated the list, I just wish I could update the poll...

 

[McGRP01]

Please read whole post b4 posting irrelevant suggestions.

Edited: because it's not worth the trouble...