[erikkellison]

Please check your attitue at the door before being a prick.

I'm sorry if you thought I was rude. It just clogs my thread and takes away from the focus by suggesting bikes that do not fit my needs, which were clearly outlined in the first post. So many people it seems are eager to suggest something that fits part of my criteria just because they want to contribute. The problem is, they're not helping.
Though, there are exceptions. Someone posted a Yeti 575, but went on to explain why it was adequate for my needs because the lower pivot alleviates pedal jack (which someone earlier confused with pedal bob) and brake jack, which are the things that a linkage like the ones I've suggested avoids. Someone else suggested an Enduro, stating that the interrupted seat tube doesn't limit seat height adjustability as much as it used to, and that I should consider it. Both were welcome suggestions because the people knew why I wanted to meet those criteria, and found other, different bikes that met them nearly as well, that I wouldn't have otherwise considered. It's bikes like the CoilAir and the Dakar that come nowhere near what I need with their suspension designs. Unless you want to offer some technobabble as to why they aren't inferior, which I am all ears to...

 

[erikkellison]

I can't wait for SC to get their pricing back up...

I could have waited. I'm not positive what the pricing was on most of the stuff, but I do know that a Free w/ a Fox40RC2 and the SPXFR kit WAS about $3800. Now it's $4200. Used to be a decent deal. Now, it's not And I was actually considering buying a new complete... silly me.

 

[batty_110]

Trek Remedy. Good for the $$

 

[erikkellison]

Cool looking bike, that remedy, only, it is a linkage actuated single pivot, which eliminates it.

maybe I should just shut my snobby self up though and quit whining about pedal jack and brake jack

 

[McGRP01]

Cool looking bike, that remedy, only, it is a linkage actuated single pivot, which eliminates it.

maybe I should just shut my snobby self up though and quit whining about pedal jack and brake jack

Awwww.....you're not going to let him have it like you did me? lol....

 

[erikkellison]

Awwww.....you're not going to let him have it like you did me? lol....

Being snide, cynical, rude and arrogant are some of my negative qualities that I work hard to get past. Sorry you suffered my from one of my many faults
Being injured makes you humble, once you get past the anger of the fact that it's your own dang fault.

 

[erikkellison]

So after much deliberation, I am considering the 6 Pack/RFX and the 575.
The Saber apparently has poor build quality.
The Reign apparently suffers from the same ailment, and I want something that lasts. I am not one to switch bikes often.
The Nomad costs too much.

The 6 Pack seems great but for the fact that it's not light.
The 575 seems great but for the SP issue, which is alleviated by the pivot location. I am very worried about durability though. Stress/impact wise, are the carbon chainstays a good or bad idea? There are fully carbon DH bikes out there...

I found the Chumba Evo, which is sweet, but hard to find used, and not cheap new.
I also found the Ellsworth Moment, which is great since the travel is adjustable (I'd love that option), but it's expensive as hell.

So, basically, right now, it's down to the 6 pack and the 575.
I am 6 feet tall.
My M VP-Free feels too short for me w/ the handlebars swept back how I like it.
So, what size should I get?
I am torn between M and L.
Fork will be a Z1 Light.
I like the bars swept back a bit, and usually scoot the seat all the way back to make it all fit.
I want to feel stable and comfortable when on drops, jumps and technical descents.
I am thinking a L w/ a short stem and the bars back, and just move the seat forward if I need to.
Opinions?

 

[joelsman]

I am 6ft and have a med 575 with a 110mm stem, I wouldn't want to have a much shorter stem if at all. Sometimes i think a large with a shorter stem would be nice, I have a fox vanila 130, longer fork would shorten the effective top tube a bit.

as far as durability, I have hit the drop on not shawns and felt fine, I have also hipped the table on sst. I don't hit the big gap on evo, mostly cuz my stem is long. anyways, I have ridden my 575 hard for 1.5yrs and it has held up, I ride it like it was my dh bike, slaming into roots and rocks, smaller jumps and drops.

let me know when you are healed up and I can let you test ride mine if you want

 

[erikkellison]

I think I might have a bike before I am healed, but if I don't, I'd be glad to take you up on such an offer. Your advice makes me think about getting a large with a shorter stem, sweeping the bars back a bit like I prefer, and adjusting the seat position to suit my preference. Especially since I'll have a 6" fork with tendencies to upgrade to 160mm 36RC2 Van.

 

[JRogers]

The MSRP cost of the Nomad and the RFX are the same with a DHX, so I'm not sure why one of those is too expensive.

What is so terrible about the quality of Giants?

 

[erikkellison]

You can't get 2004 or 2005 Nomads, and used bikes are usually what I'm in the market for. I can get a nice used Six Pack for under $1000.
As for Giants, I've just never heard anyone rave about them w/ the exception of the DH Team. And I've heard a lot of people tell me that the build quality sucks, the paint sucks, they break, they're not durable, etc. etc. It's nothing personal, but when one is in the market for something they know little about, they place a certain value on the opinions of others. I'm also not sure if I can put a DHX Air on a Giant, and that's what I want.

 

[Smelly]

I'm 6' on a medium Pack with a 70mm stem. I wouldn't want it much shorter, but it couldn't get much longer either without the bike feeling unweildy. Lots of people my height are on large's, though. I have a 32" inseam and run a 410mm Thomson post just to ensure that I have lots of insertion because at times my seat is fairly high. You really could go either way- if you like bigger, longer, more spacious bikes, go with the large. If you like shorter and flickable, go with the medium. I honestly can't imagine riding a large Pack, but then again, there are guys on large's who would say they can't imagine riding a medium. Because the trails in my area are super rocky and technical, I like having a bike that responds quickly to weight shifts can change lines easily. Shorter wheelbases are a good thing on New England trails.

The 575 runs a bit shorter than the Turner, so I'd guess you would definitely want a large on that.

Given your disdain for poorly built bikes, I'm surprised you're even considering an Ellsworth.

Just a thought- have you considered an SX trail? Seems like another bike you'd like.

 

[soreback]

i have a 2006 yeti 575 with the enduro package, it came with the 2007 fox vanilla fork (140MM) and 2007 RP23 rear shock. this bike rocks.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

I have not seen anything in this discussion about longevity and maintainability. How long do the pivots last on the models discussed? How easy and how expensive are they to rebuild?

J

 

[erikkellison]

What I've learned about durability:
Six Pack doesn't break, and pivots last if you take care of them because they're bushings. But if the bike is extremely neglected, then this can lead to irreparable damage.
Reign is questionable because it's a Giant. Lose value quickly because of poor durability, both cosmetic and functional. Not overbuilt.
Yeti is great until it breaks, which apparently happens (it has carbon flex points (scary).
I didn't know Ellsworth had a bad rep, I thought they were great.
SC Nomad is questionable because it's so new, but SCs in general have a good rep for durability, okay on quality, and okay CS.
Other bikes:
Chumba Evo seems spectacular, but has bearings which will need to be replaced eventually, sooner than bushings. Great build quality, supposed good CS.
Astrix Stryke: I really have no idea.

 

[blue]

I didn't know Ellsworth had a bad rep, I thought they were great.

Two bike lines I've seen most broken/screwed up:

Ellsworth
Banshee

Ellsworth does seem to have somewhat fixed their customer service, but their design work (uncoated mag rockers on the Epiphany) and quality control suck.

 

[SkaredShtles]

<snip>
Reign is questionable because it's a Giant. Lose value quickly because of poor durability, both cosmetic and functional. Not overbuilt.

First I've heard of this..........

 

[tmnarkawicz]

Look at the Intense 5.5 also. I have been riding one for 2 yrs. and love it. Can be built light and durable, pedals great with the VPP linkage. I also put a Nixon Super Intrinsic 145mm fork on it. This change my head angle from 70 to 69. I thought this bike handled well before with the 70 degree head angle, but the extra inch travel and slacker angle have transformed the 5.5 into a incredible all around trailbike. So many killer bikes out these days, it is a battle to decide on which one.

 

[skinny mike]

Look at the Intense 5.5 also. I have been riding one for 2 yrs. and love it. Can be built light and durable, pedals great with the VPP linkage. I also put a Nixon Super Intrinsic 145mm fork on it. This change my head angle from 70 to 69. I thought this bike handled well before with the 70 degree head angle, but the extra inch travel and slacker angle have transformed the 5.5 into a incredible all around trailbike. So many killer bikes out these days, it is a battle to decide on which one.

it's a solid bike but it goes through bearings very quickly. i know someone who would end up replacing some of the bearings once a month.

 

[SkaredShtles]

it's a solid bike but it goes through bearings very quickly. i know someone who would end up replacing some of the bearings once a month.

That reminds me. I really should get a bushing kit for the rear triangle of my bike. It's been 5 years, after all.

 

[jncarpenter]

In response to something above, the Turner TNT thing is also a linkage-driven SP, and while it may be better than a Kona, it is mechanically/fundamentally similar, and I don't want that kind of bike. I think DT noticed only minor differences in the shorter travel bikes w/ the relocation of the pivot, and decided to come up with a bit of marketing to support that, rather than continue to pay Specialized. All he had/has to do is convince you that the difference is minor when referring to pedal feedback and brake jack, and then start to laud the benefits (stiffness) of a SP linkage. I don't hear anyone saying that the TNT design improves rear wheel travel; they're just insisting that it doesn't harm it all that much.

....actually, if you take the time to read through the TNT reviews on the MTBR TURNER Board, you'll see that a huge segment of reviewers actually preferred the TNT to the Horst & bought TNT rears to replace the HL on their bikes. I had the chance to demo the TNT rear on my 5 Spot & ran it back to back with the hl rear, there was a very noticeable difference in pedalling firmness & the bike seemed to accellerate better. No matter what the majority of experienced riders tried, we could not detect any negative braking characteristics.

I currently ride an 06 RFX (Large) w/ a 5Spot rear & rockers & I would highly recommend that setup for an aggressive trail/ AM bike

 

[Tmeyer]

I really like my Reign, climbs like crazy and is still abale to descend with the best of them. Also hit some decent drops on it and it was fine. No issues yet and have been on it for 2 seasons. My $.02

 

[erikkellison]

I've heard of the 5 Pack, but it seems like a quick way to lose an inch of travel. I'm already losing 2.5".
As far as those reviews, I am skeptical of their honesty and the lack of a double-blind testing setup. The bikes would have to be exactly identical for a proper test (not to mention the blinding), and that's pretty difficult, and I doubt anyone has even tried two identical bikes. There may not be much difference, but mechanically the HL is superior, and hearing people say that a linkage driven SP is better seems ludicrous. It just can't compensate for pedal feedback like a HL can - it's a physical impossibility. Braking, meh, minor differences, and I am also not as concerned about that since I won't be riding stutter-bumped berms at 30 and trying to slow down through especially rocky sections of No Joke, Original Sin, No Duff or Duffman. My bike just won't be pushed in the braking area as much. But pedaling matters.

 

[erikkellison]

For research purposes, I have added the Specialized Enduro (I wanted it recorded on here for others):

Same: A1 Aluminum, forged HT, ORE TT and BB, 150mm travel via 8.75" x 2.5" shock, weight w/ Air = ~8lbs, w/ coil ~9lbs:
2005 Enduro Expert (5th Element Air)
2005 Enduro Pro (5th Element Air)
2005 Enduro SX Trail (5th Element Coil w/ weird resevoir)
2006 Enduro Expert (DHX Air)
2006 Enduro Pro (DHX Air)

'05 HT angle is .5 degrees steeper than '06 on these as well as the S-Works.

Same: Has M5 aluminum, otherwise same as above, not sure how much lighter these are:
2005 S-Works Enduro (5th Element Air)
2006 S-Works Enduro (DHX Air)

Same: Has A1 aluminum, forget HT, ORE TT & BB, more welds and gussets than others but same tubing as other A1 frames, 167mm travel via 9.0" x 2.75" (non-standard) shock, weight = 9.9lbs:
2006 Enduro SX Trail (DHX Coil)

If I wasn't getting a Turner, I would be getting one of these (something from the first or second group) I think ('06 SXT too heavy). They're anodized even, and cheap because they're Specialized. And they will get cheaper when the '07 line comes out because it's getting totally revamped (so I hear).

 

[mastercycleman]

carbon all-mtn bikes scare me

you scare me

 

[BIRDMAN111]

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Jamis Dakar xlt, i love mine. Jumping, xc, some dh, whatever, its great

 

[jncarpenter]

...I doubt anyone has even tried two identical bikes. There may not be much difference, but mechanically the HL is superior, and hearing people say that a linkage driven SP is better seems ludicrous..

...sorry you feel that way, I guess only some saddle time could convince you. Don't feel bad, I used to feel as adamantly about the HL design as well....that is until DT offered to let me keep the TNT rear for a month & flog it. FWIW, most of the guys on the Turner board had a turn at the rear TNT & it was installed on THEIR bikes (as was mine) so the build is definitely identical. That is what made things so convincing for me...it was MY setup & everything remained the same so the performance of the new design was much easier to isolate. Of course you're free to believe what you will, but I happily sold off my HL frames & now own a TNT spot rear as well as a TNT RFX rear.:biggrin:

You're comments about the mechanical superiority of HL are extemporaneous....the application of the design is what makes or breaks it. Most of the characteristic advantages you cite are lost when the pivot is moved as close to the axle as most modern applications (think orig. Giant XTC for an example of a more effective iteration). Bottom line...I put in alot of saddle time after 2 years on the same bike with a HL.....verdict: the TNT was a slightly BETTER climber.

PS. you can easily swap rockers if you get the 5 Pack (RFX frame w/ Spot rockers) at any time & revert to the 6" travel version. I have the RFX triangle with both rear & rocker setups