[Kntr]

Anyone know the difference between the 2 different ti springs that come in the new 888 World Cup. It says;

TI Springs K3.1 Or TI Springs K3.5

Any ideas?

Brian?

http://www.marzocchi.com/Template/detailSPAForksMTB.asp?IDFolder=113&IDAnno=30710&LN=UK&Sito=mtb&mCO=Prgho\hduPrgho\hdu#GHVF/#VhulhRuglqh/#QrphIrufhood&mCW=DQG#&Prgho\hduPrgho\hdu&#A@#*5334*#DQG#&DP&#@#4#DQG#&Prgho\hdu&#@#63:43#DQG#&Vhulh&#@#63:58&mCJ=&IDOggetto=30809

 

[Dirty]

isnt K the spring coefficient?
meaning a higher spring coefficient means its harder to compress....soooo...two spring rates? a soft and a hard?

from wikipedia

n physics, Hooke's law of elasticity is an approximation which states that the amount by which a material body is deformed (the strain) is linearly related to the force causing the deformation (the stress). Materials for which Hooke's law is a useful approximation are known as linear-elastic or "Hookean" materials.

For systems that obey Hooke's law, the extension produced is proportional to the load:

F=-kx

where

x is the distance the spring is elongated by,
F is the restoring force exerted by the spring, and
k is the spring constant or force constant of the spring.

When this holds, we say that the spring is a linear spring.


ALSO

The potential energy stored in a spring is given by

U={1\over2}kx^2

which comes from adding up the energy it takes to incrementally compress the spring. That is, the integral of force over distance. (Note that potential energy of a spring is always positive.)

 

[Mountain_Dewd]

in addition, anyone know how much there gonna cost?


in the pinkbike article it says 2840!!!cdn but still thats crazy high.

 

[Kntr]

MSRP is $1599

 

[Mountain_Dewd]

thanks kanter, thats where i anticipated it to be, but that article got me a little nervous, really lusting after a world cup but not bout to shell out that kinda cash.

 

[Kntr]

It seems like all high end forks are about $1500-1600.

 

[vitox]

its 3,1kilos/cm

multiply by 2,54 (cm to inches) and then by 2,2 (kilos to pounds).

or just multiply by 5.6 and you get close to 15/lbs in which is the same as a 2005 silver boxxer spring.

 

[Kntr]

So how do they compare to the old 888 steel springs?

stock steel springs=3.1 ti ?
after market heavy=3.5 ti ?

 

[vitox]

So how do they compare to the old 888 steel springs?

stock steel springs=3.1 ti ?
after market heavy=3.5 ti ?

exactly


no love for the soft spring user though. (2,7k)

 

[Brian Peterson]

3.1 would be stock rate in the current 888... 3.5 would be the heavy... We are pushing to get the US 888WC's stock with the 3.5 springs..

 

[Kntr]

Can you get them with one 3.1 and one 3.5? I found that changing only one spring to the heavy in my 888 was enough. I think changing both springs might be a little too much.

 

[frznnomad]

^^^agreed

 

[skate]

Any idea on what the weight is on the WC.

 

[Kntr]

Suppose to be a little lighter than the 06 RC2X so around 7.6lb since the 06 was 8.0lbs.

 

[davep]

Can you get them with one 3.1 and one 3.5? I found that changing only one spring to the heavy in my 888 was enough. I think changing both springs might be a little too much.

I know where you are comming from as i also run one of each spring, but i think that two 3.5s would work. The spring rates for the 888 are low when compared to other 8" Dh forks (fox and R.S.) and the changes from one spring to another is slight.

soft 888 springs = 30.2 lb/inch
ine soft one stock = 32.4 lb/inch
stock 888 springs = 34.6 lb/inch
your 888 set up= 36.9 lb/inch
firm 888 springs = 39.1 lb/inch

Current boxxers (single spring) have a spring range of 30 - 45 lb/inch with a jump of five lb/in between springs. The stock spring in a boxxer is a 40lb/in spring and R.S says this is good fora 150lb - 180lb rider Above that, and you need to bump to a 45lb/in spring.

The spring rates for the Fox 40 are again in 5lb/in jumps starting at 30lb/in, but going all the way up to 50lb/in. Like R.S. the 40lb/in spring is recomended for a 150lb - 180lb rider.

So while the 888 offers the low end and offers a finer adjustability, the stiffest spring combo you can get is softer than the stock spring offered by the other large mfgs. Every fork is different in damping, but all forks opperate at a 1:1 ratio and therefore, the spring rates should be fairly consistant across the mfg (as seen in the similarities in recomendations between R.S and Fox), atleast as far as sag is concerned (which BTW is the FIRST and most important guideline to the propper spring).

Looking at the numbers, It seems as though most 888s are under-sprung, some of them significantly. This is in agreement and would explain the general seniment about the 888. It is very soft off the top (some even sag under their own weight) and suffers from excessive brake dive and generally rides well in to its travel. Sme say it was unridable without the l.s. adjuster.

The 888 gets away with this because it has a VERY significant anti-bottom out. The secondary damping stage combined with the air pressures that build with in the fork, combine to make a fork that will prevent harsh bottom even when seriously under-sprung.

 

[davep]

Any idea on what the weight is on the WC.

IIRC 150 grams was the weight difference due to the ti springs..so 1/3 lb.

 

[Jm_]

Looking at the numbers, It seems as though most 888s are under-sprung, some of them significantly. This is in agreement and would explain the general seniment about the 888. It is very soft off the top (some even sag under their own weight) and suffers from excessive brake dive and generally rides well in to its travel. Sme say it was unridable without the l.s. adjuster.

The 888 gets away with this because it has a VERY significant anti-bottom out. The secondary damping stage combined with the air pressures that build with in the fork, combine to make a fork that will prevent harsh bottom even when seriously under-sprung.

Not so much that it's designed to do that, but that it's adjustable and the user can adjust the oil levels and other aspects (end stroke compression) to prevent the bottom out. Other manufacturers have a "one size fits all" attitude in regards to the amount of progression on their forks. This means that some riders will require a stiffer spring, and some a softer spring, even if they weigh the same amount due to differing amounts of agressiveness.

 

[davep]

Not so much that it's designed to do that, but that it's adjustable and the user can adjust the oil levels and other aspects (end stroke compression) to prevent the bottom out. Other manufacturers have a "one size fits all" attitude in regards to the amount of progression on their forks. This means that some riders will require a stiffer spring, and some a softer spring, even if they weigh the same amount due to differing amounts of agressiveness.

I agree completely and think that some progression is a good thing ( i own an '05 888 as i though it was the best offering at that time) ..however...

A progressive spring curve has its down sides...mid stroke 'wallow'.
Draw a force vs displacement curve for an ideal linear spring and also for a progressive spring. Both curves have to start at zero, and they should end at the same value (whatever value allows use of all travel). Now overlay the two curves and the progressive spring curve provides less spring force through out the middle of the travel.

Viola brake dive, the main complaint of the 888

 

[vitox]

I know where you are comming from as i also run one of each spring, but i think that two 3.5s would work. The spring rates for the 888 are low when compared to other 8" Dh forks (fox and R.S.) and the changes from one spring to another is slight.

soft 888 springs = 30.2 lb/inch
ine soft one stock = 32.4 lb/inch
stock 888 springs = 34.6 lb/inch
your 888 set up= 36.9 lb/inch
firm 888 springs = 39.1 lb/inch

Current boxxers (single spring) have a spring range of 30 - 45 lb/inch with a jump of five lb/in between springs. The stock spring in a boxxer is a 40lb/in spring and R.S says this is good fora 150lb - 180lb rider Above that, and you need to bump to a 45lb/in spring.

The spring rates for the Fox 40 are again in 5lb/in jumps starting at 30lb/in, but going all the way up to 50lb/in. Like R.S. the 40lb/in spring is recomended for a 150lb - 180lb rider.

So while the 888 offers the low end and offers a finer adjustability, the stiffest spring combo you can get is softer than the stock spring offered by the other large mfgs. Every fork is different in damping, but all forks opperate at a 1:1 ratio and therefore, the spring rates should be fairly consistant across the mfg (as seen in the similarities in recomendations between R.S and Fox), atleast as far as sag is concerned (which BTW is the FIRST and most important guideline to the propper spring).

Looking at the numbers, It seems as though most 888s are under-sprung, some of them significantly. This is in agreement and would explain the general seniment about the 888. It is very soft off the top (some even sag under their own weight) and suffers from excessive brake dive and generally rides well in to its travel. Sme say it was unridable without the l.s. adjuster.

The 888 gets away with this because it has a VERY significant anti-bottom out. The secondary damping stage combined with the air pressures that build with in the fork, combine to make a fork that will prevent harsh bottom even when seriously under-sprung.

hey i couldnt agree more only that for the average dher here, 40lbs/in is too stiff to be a stock setup (brian pleeeease let there be some with 3,1 stock)

 

[davep]

You guys need to eat more:biggrin:

 

[Kntr]

What weight rider would need the dual 3.1 or the dual 3.5?

Id say a dual 3.5 springs would be good for a 190-210 lb rider.
And the dual 3.1 springs would be good for a 160-180 lb rder.
One 3.1 and one 3.5 would be mid 180-190 lb rider.
Sound about right?

 

[peachy]

a 120 lb rider?

 

[davep]

What weight rider would need the dual 3.1 or the dual 3.5?

Id say a dual 3.5 springs would be good for a 190-210 lb rider.
And the dual 3.1 springs would be good for a 160-180 lb rder.
One 3.1 and one 3.5 would be mid 180-190 lb rider.
Sound about right?

I have not seen any recomendation from Marz, but if you looked at the Fox or R.S. tables, dual 3.1 stock springs would be for a 120lb - 150 lb rider, and the dual 3.5s would be for 150 - 180lb rider.

 

[Kntr]

I have not seen any recomendation from Marz, but if you looked at the Fox or R.S. tables, dual 3.1 stock springs would be for a 120lb - 150 lb rider, and the dual 3.5s would be for 150 - 180lb rider.

Ya, but the 888 isnt a Fox or a RS.

 

[sayndesyn]

1600 MSRP... exactly what are you getting for the 500 extra bucks? Slippery stanchions and ti springs?

 

[vitox]

1600 MSRP... exactly what are you getting for the 500 extra bucks? Slippery stanchions and ti springs?

yes/si/oui

 

[Yeti]

so, i guess the msrp for the rc2xva is going to be $1000...what stock springs will be coming with that one?

 

[vitox]

so, i guess the msrp for the rc2xva is going to be $1000...what stock springs will be coming with that one?

no hard facts but i cant see any mention of the springs changing, if so it would be 3,1k

 

[sayndesyn]

yes/si/oui

what a steal..

 

[davep]

Ya, but the 888 isnt a Fox or a RS.

They all have the same travel, they all work at the same ratio, and none have any progressive damping like a 5th shock that would require a different rate.

The fox is not a R.S. but they use the EXACT spring rates and recomendations. The older boxxers used a completely different damping, yet used the exact same spring rates....

Is the marz more different from the R.S. than the fox?

 

[Kntr]

They all have the same travel, they all work at the same ratio, and none have any progressive damping like a 5th shock that would require a different rate.

The fox is not a R.S. but they use the EXACT spring rates and recomendations. The older boxxers used a completely different damping, yet used the exact same spring rates....

Is the marz more different from the R.S. than the fox?

Im not sure. From what I have noticed, RS and Fox need heavier springs to feel like a Zoke. On the other hand, you can alway add more oil to a Zoke to make it feel more progressive before it bottoms.

 

[Bicyclist]

You should determine what spring to use by sag, not bottoming. You set the sag and then later determine bottom out. That's why people always complain about 888s. They underspring them, then crank up the bottom out and say there's too much brake dive but it never bottoms. But that's 'cause they're undersprung.

Kanter, why not just buy Ti springs for your RC2X and call it done?

 

[Kntr]

You should determine what spring to use by sag, not bottoming. You set the sag and then later determine bottom out. That's why people always complain about 888s. They underspring them, then crank up the bottom out and say there's too much brake dive but it never bottoms. But that's 'cause they're undersprung.

Kanter, why not just buy Ti springs for your RC2X and call it done?

Im a parts whore and replace my fork every year.

Forks Ive had;

98 Z1 Bam 4"
99 Z1 Bam 5"
00 Junior T 5"
01 Super T 6"
02 Super T 7"
03 Super T 7"
04 888 RC 8"
05 888 RC 8"
06 888 RC2X 8"

Im a Zoke fan.

And I also already sold my 06 888 yesterday and shipped it this morning.

 

[Bicyclist]

But the 888RC2X looked so cool on your Fly!

 

[Kntr]

Give a few more weeks and Ill get another pic.... A black Avy or grey 888 would look and ride, oh so nice. Im riding the wife bike for now.

 

[davep]

You should determine what spring to use by sag, not bottoming. You set the sag and then later determine bottom out. That's why people always complain about 888s. They underspring them, then crank up the bottom out and say there's too much brake dive but it never bottoms. But that's 'cause they're undersprung.

That is exactly what I am saying. By comparison to other rates, they seem too soft, but that is just a hypothesis. But what truely is 'proof' of the soft spring theory is the EXACT things that poeple complain about 888s. Mid travel wallow, brake dive, extreme small bump compliance, sag under the bikes own weight, riding low, are all symptoms of too soft of a spring. BTW I ride a 05' 888, just takes some work.

 

[Yeti]

On the other hand, you can alway add more oil to a Zoke to make it feel more progressive before it bottoms.

If you add more oil to the 888 it will have less travel since fluidy can't be compressed....right?..or am i missing something

 

[vitox]

If you add more oil to the 888 it will have less travel since fluidy can't be compressed....right?..or am i missing something

that only happens once you add TOO MUCH oil, before that you have a range of adjustment that happens because the air inside the fork has to compress. said resistance to compression is progressive until its infinite.

 

[brittmtb]

Has the tubing in the lowers been thinned at all to reduce weight? It seems that the $500 or so extra for the WC is a bit much just for Ti springs and slippery stanctions.

 

[Kntr]

Anyone know about the colors of the 888 WC? Every WC I see comes with white lowers but the Zoke website says the WC has grey lowers. Are the white lowers only on OEM bikes? Here are a few pics on NSMB.
http://www.nsmb.com/shore_news/interbike06_3.php