[erikkellison]

So I'm
downgrading from my VP-Free due to an injury (going to scale down my riding with the hopes of prevnting injuries), and I want a
trail bike. Something that I can
pedal well on flat trails and have fun, but also work up to jumps and drops and rough stuff. A true do-it-all bike. With that in mind, I picked some bikes out, and
would like some first-hand comments on what I should get. I want the
geometry to be a little on the slack side, and the frame to be both
strong enough for a 180lb rider (never broken anything though, so I'm not a rough hack), but
light enough to throw around and pedal for a while.
I also want an uninterrupted seat tube so I can climb, freeride, and everything in between. I am 6' tall, and need some variance in seat height.

I posted this in the XC forum, or at least something like it, but made this a poll for easy input. I'd also like to hear about the downfalls of some of these bikes, like whether they hold up, whether they're too steep for freeride, etc etc. I am planning on putting a 6" fork on the front.

If you're going to vote "other," please tell me what, or specify that I should stick with the Free. I am not in the market for bikes with non-Horst 4-bars, or single pivots w/ high pivot locations, or other linkage-driven single pivots. If at all possible, please confine your vote to one of the options I have listed above. Thanks for the input!

 

[sanjuro]

If you want to save some cash, just switch the fork/shock on the VP-Free, like to a Fox 36/DHX Air. I thought a lot about it since N* was closed, and Yuba Expeditions set up their VP's this way.

 

[renorider40]

I don't think the reign is very slack, its like a long travel x-country bike, or at least that is what i have heard.

 

[erikkellison]

I guess I could do that... I have been thinking about modifying my Free for lighter purposes. Maybe a lighter fork + DHX Air + lighter tires would be light enough. Knowing how good my bike is, both maintenance and condition, makes me hard to part with it. I could lose at least 1lb/tire, a couple pounds at the shock, and a couple more at the fork. It weighs 40-41 right now, which would put it at 35 max. I guess that's not bad...still, not sure what that bike w/ a shorter DHX Air w/ 6-7" SC fork on it would perform like. Comments on that, Sanjuro?

 

[aggrorider]

We have a specialized enduro expert as a test bike at the bike shop I work at and I have done a couple of rides on it. The fox suspension on it feels bottomless, but still pedals great. The bike weighs in at 35 lbs and is still quick and nimble. It can handle lift access mountains and is great for long epic rides. The bike has held up AMAZINGLY too. If you could see what this bike has gone off of you would be shocked. The only source of damage on it is the cranks got rounded out a little. Otherwise no other problems have come up.

I would personally stay away from SC VPP bikes. Maybe it's just the terrain or riders up here in New England, but SC VPP bikes go through pivots like you go through water. They last on average about 6-8months.

 

[Monkeybidnezz]

I second the Enduro even though you didn't list it. It is a 4 bar, so it should still qualify right?

I think a lighter VP Free would be pretty sweet as well. Going with the 36 or the 66 SL would shed 2-3 lbs, and a lighter wheelset with trail tires can help you a lot. A 35is trail bike is pretty respectable if you ask me, especially one that pedals well.

 

[metalhead119042]

I accidently voted for two but i meant to vote for the Nomad because it seems like a frame you could do anything with. Somebody in the Downhill forum put an 888 on it and it was pretty raked out but seemed to ride fine. You could probably also put a coil shock on it if you get back into heavier freeriding.

 

[erikkellison]

I should take the Nomad off the list because it is so similar to my Free that I might as well just change the build on it instead.
As for the Enduro, it has an interrupted seat tube, which automatically limits its versatility. I forgot to toss that requirement on the list, but leave it to people to ignore certain restrictions in the name of what they think I tend to be guilty myself.
So, O. post edited.
I forgot to mention that price is always a factor, which is why the Reign and especially the Saber are attractive.

 

[aggrorider]

I should take the Nomad off the list because it is so similar to my Free that I might as well just change the build on it instead.
As for the Enduro, it has an interrupted seat tube, which automatically limits its versatility. I forgot to toss that requirement on the list, but leave it to people to ignore certain restrictions in the name of what they think I tend to be guilty myself.
So, O. post edited.
I forgot to mention that price is always a factor, which is why the Reign and especially the Saber are attractive.

I thought that would restrict the enduro as well, but a lot of seat post can be stuffed into that tube. I found that a regular seatpost really isn't a problem, but if you want you could put a titec telescoping seatpost in it if you want.

The best way to describe the enduro is that it is a little pitbull of a bike. It can handle a lot and still strives for more. Added with the suspension technology of today and you have a bike that is easy to earn your way up the mountain and loads of fun to bomb down without feeling uncomfortable.

 

[Five]

I just switched from a Vp-Free to a Turner 6-pack. I've got it built w/ a DHX Air rear shock and 36 Vanilla up front. I don't do much dhing anymore so I wanted something that I could do some trail riding, some jumping, drops, etc and maybe hit Whistler everyonce in awhile. I know I won't go as fast as the Free, but so far the bike has been a lot of fun. Pedals real well, not too heavy, geo seems good. The bike is well matched w/ the Fox 36. The frame isn't cheap, but definetely a good bike. I didn't switch cause of injury, but more because my work travel schedule has been crazy. It's nice to come home and be able to jump on a bike and go ride around and not feel like you need a chairlift to go ride.

 

[Monkeybidnezz]

In all honesty you can get almost full extension on an Enduro, so that shouldn't limit the versatility. If you need an even longer post, you could always run a telescopic seatpost.

I understand you concerns, but a lot of people are mistaken when they think it isn't possible to get a longer seatpost to work with the FSR design.

 

[pdawg]

"I am not in the market for bikes with non-Horst 4-bars"

I believe Turner moved away from the Horst link, due to licensing issues. Their RFX is a bit more like other faux-bar designs (pseudo 4-bar, e.g. Kona) ... which is not necessarily a bad thing. At any rate, the money they save by not using the license doesn't appear to have lowered the price.

Given your list of choices my pick would be the RFX. However, if Kona had a frame only version of their '07 Coilair with D.O.P.E floating brake system I would consider that. Mostly likely it would cost less than the RFX and be a stronger frame (perhaps a pound heavier).

 

[sanjuro]

I would personally stay away from SC VPP bikes. Maybe it's just the terrain or riders up here in New England, but SC VPP bikes go through pivots like you go through water. They last on average about 6-8months.

Yeah, you better throw away that VP-Free. There is nothing more reliable than a tiny pivot between the cranks and cassette. There is not much stress there...

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

From browsing this post and the one you had in the XC forum you seem to contradict yourself a little bit. You keep saying how you love your VPFree, but you feel it is too much bike. Then you are considering lightening it up, but then you disregard the Nomad???

I dunno, from reading it sounds like the Nomad would be the perfect option for what you want to do. Build it up with light(ish) parts and it should be perfect. I have seen a number of Nomads with smart builds in the 32-35lb range.

 

[Snacks]

I just switched from a Vp-Free to a Turner 6-pack. I've got it built w/ a DHX Air rear shock and 36 Vanilla up front. I don't do much dhing anymore so I wanted something that I could do some trail riding, some jumping, drops, etc and maybe hit Whistler everyonce in awhile. I know I won't go as fast as the Free, but so far the bike has been a lot of fun. Pedals real well, not too heavy, geo seems good. The bike is well matched w/ the Fox 36. The frame isn't cheap, but definetely a good bike. I didn't switch cause of injury, but more because my work travel schedule has been crazy. It's nice to come home and be able to jump on a bike and go ride around and not feel like you need a chairlift to go ride.

Word Get a Turner.

 

[Niq1]

So here we are again. How 'bout the Enduro (or Enduro SL) with a Maverick Speedball? Sweet...
If not that, I think your best option is an air shock upgrade/minor parts swap for your VP Free. The Nomad is a good choice, but it seems like spending a lot of $$ to get something rather similar in the end, and a VP Free with light(er) parts can get you into a respectable pedaling weight class.

 

[Monkeybidnezz]

Word Get a Turner.

hehe and you aren't a tad bit biased are you.

Yeah, Turners rock.

 

[Snacks]

hehe and you aren't a tad bit biased are you.

Yeah, Turners rock.

Maybe but after owning 4 of then, all different frame types, something must be right with them

 

[allsk8sno]

kona coiler would work great too, hell even the older stinky's

 

[joelsman]

I voted for the turner since it can take more abuse than the 575, reign or blur lt, but is still light enough. Yeti says the 575 is good for up to 6ft drops to tranny. sounds like you will want to go bigger.

the mkIII has more xc-ish geometry
the azonic has a heavy frame.

the nomad was my second choice since it can take abuse also. the turners pivots will last longer and have grease zerk fittings so you can pump in the grease

 

[frorider]

I voted for the turner since it can take more abuse than the 575, reign or blur lt, but is still light enough. Yeti says the 575 is good for up to 6ft drops to tranny. sounds like you will want to go bigger.

the mkIII has more xc-ish geometry
the azonic has a heavy frame.

the nomad was my second choice since it can take abuse also. the turners pivots will last longer and have grease zerk fittings so you can pump in the grease

i agree with all your comments.

i like my 575 as a trail bike; the frame is laterally stiffer than many bikes that are heavier. however it's not the right bike if you're doing drops etc on regular basis.

from what he's said, the turner with a dhx air or dhx/Ti spring is the way to go. but the more affordable recommendation would probably be the Reign.

 

[ATOMICFIREBALL]

It's nice to come home and be able to jump on a bike and go ride around and not feel like you need a chairlift to go ride.

Yep, that is nice. A light bike is good..

 

[erikkellison]

my only problem with the turner is the high BB - it's as high as my vp if i switch to a 8.5x2.5 shock, and i'll have 1.75 more inches of travel. I want to be able to corner well, and high BB's don'y help. if i tune the dhx air to have some sag and a good bottom out resistance, it should corner well, pedal well, and jump/drop nice.

The reign looks slack enough for me. i'm nowhere near ready to abuse abything yet. cheap too, and if i don't like it, i can sell it.

the nomad is nearly the same as my free w/ a shorter shock, and one of those would cost me more $$.

 

[Inkhell]

I'll bet you'd like the Nomad. Been riding mine for all season with no issues. Great blend between my Heckler (never felt very comfortable on it) and my Foes Fly. I can pedal the same XC singletrack on my Nomad faster than I ever could on my Heckler...even with a stout build on the Nomad. I haven't ridden any real dh on the Nomad (getting old) but it feels great in the air and on meager drops.

 

[joelsman]

giant is coming out with the reign X that would be perfect I think, 6.7in and more sturdy. also have you thought of ellsworth? dropnzone has a demo one at the shop. the moment w/6in travel.

 

[erikkellison]

The Reign X sounds cool!! '07? I'll have to be patient.
I was planning on talking w/ Allen when I became more able to actually test something out - yes, I did consider the moment. I think that was actually Allen's ride, at least for a while. Looks like I might have a new fork already, i just need that shorter dhx air and some better tires. and if i don't like my free then, i'll check out the reign x. nomad's are too expensive... $2000 for a santa cruz? i liked them because they were affordable...

 

[particle bored]

Word Get a Turner.

Especially because a Nomad will require about 5 times more maintenance...

cough***Santa Cruz***cough***cheap bearings***cough***lousy tolerances***cough

 

[particle bored]

my only problem with the turner is the high BB - it's as high as my vp if i switch to a 8.5x2.5 shock, and i'll have 1.75 more inches of travel. I want to be able to corner well, and high BB's don'y help. if i tune the dhx air to have some sag and a good bottom out resistance, it should corner well, pedal well, and jump/drop nice.

A few thoughts on BB height...

I have ridden a friend's VP Free w/ 888 enough to know its handling characteristics. And I've owned and ridden a 6-Pack w/ Van 36 since last April (2005).

The RFX/6-Pack BB height is a non-issue. You might think it would make the bike tippy or corner poorly, but neither is true, at least compared to a VP-Free.

Maybe compared to a Iron Horse Sunday, but not compared to a VP-Free.

I also have a 5-Spot and it has a bit lower BB than the 6-Pack and I find the two bikes corner equally well, while the 5-Spot gets a few more pedal whacks on rocks etc.

Don't forget that the sag of the rear shock effectively lowers the BB.

Also as to your idea of running a longer-than-spec rear shock... first you should ride an RFX or 6-Pack. Turner's suspension design is excellent, and I think you would be surprised how well the 6" of rear travel works. My 6-Pack does so well in nasty shyte that I'm selling my big bike at the end of this season.

 

[Five]

A few thoughts on BB height...

I have ridden a friend's VP Free w/ 888 enough to know its handling characteristics. And I've owned and ridden a 6-Pack w/ Van 36 since last April (2005).

The RFX/6-Pack BB height is a non-issue. You might think it would make the bike tippy or corner poorly, but neither is true, at least compared to a VP-Free.

Maybe compared to a Iron Horse Sunday, but not compared to a VP-Free.

I also have a 5-Spot and it has a bit lower BB than the 6-Pack and I find the two bikes corner equally well, while the 5-Spot gets a few more pedal whacks on rocks etc.

Don't forget that the sag of the rear shock effectively lowers the BB.

Also as to your idea of running a longer-than-spec rear shock... first you should ride an RFX or 6-Pack. Turner's suspension design is excellent, and I think you would be surprised how well the 6" of rear travel works. My 6-Pack does so well in nasty shyte that I'm selling my big bike at the end of this season.

Amen on the 6-Pack. Just got back from Whistler this weekend and rode the 6-Pack up there. While I didn't go as fast as when I had my Vp-Free - the 6 handled great. No problems on the techy stuff up at Garbanzo and no probs on the lower half - even did the big GLC drop.

 

[erikkellison]

A few thoughts on BB height...

I have ridden a friend's VP Free w/ 888 enough to know its handling characteristics. And I've owned and ridden a 6-Pack w/ Van 36 since last April (2005).

The RFX/6-Pack BB height is a non-issue. You might think it would make the bike tippy or corner poorly, but neither is true, at least compared to a VP-Free.

Maybe compared to a Iron Horse Sunday, but not compared to a VP-Free.

I also have a 5-Spot and it has a bit lower BB than the 6-Pack and I find the two bikes corner equally well, while the 5-Spot gets a few more pedal whacks on rocks etc.

Don't forget that the sag of the rear shock effectively lowers the BB.

Also as to your idea of running a longer-than-spec rear shock... first you should ride an RFX or 6-Pack. Turner's suspension design is excellent, and I think you would be surprised how well the 6" of rear travel works. My 6-Pack does so well in nasty shyte that I'm selling my big bike at the end of this season.

thanks for the first hand account. my point was that the 6 pack/rfx ought to pedal better than the free because it ought to have a lower bb, but since it doesn't have it, it probably doesn't. I'd rather keep my free and modify it so it corners better and still handles well than switch out frames. only if that doesn't work to my liking will i get a rfx. and the rfx is the runner up right now, followed by the reign.

as far as longer-than-spec shock, not sure where you got that. I am planning on installing a shorter one which will make the free bb height as low as a rfx, and adjusting the sag so it's even lower. I am aware that the free doesn't corner with the best of them, which is part of why i'm modifying it. but, when I do, it should stay low in the corners, hug the ground, and still pop nicely if I push it. only if my modification of the free doesn't work will i try a whole new frame. I just want to see if what I already own will work first.

 

[evilbob]

My choice would be a 6.6 or the 6pack if I couldn't have this......

 

[erikkellison]

Amen on the 6-Pack. Just got back from Whistler this weekend and rode the 6-Pack up there. While I didn't go as fast as when I had my Vp-Free - the 6 handled great. No problems on the techy stuff up at Garbanzo and no probs on the lower half - even did the big GLC drop.

I think I have a different definition of what performance is than some of you. My Bullit/dorado was okay on Garbanzo, but the Free w/ 888 was worlds ahead. The free is just so much faster than a 6 pack can be, i won't compare them on that kind of riding - it seems silly. my comparison is for slower, less gnarcore riding with smaller drops. Good to hear that the 6 pack can handle the GLC drop, but I would expect it to as that is going to be a routine drop size for me in the future. I am more concerned with trail riding characteristics, which I think I can match or better the 6-pack with my modified free. good to know that the 6 pack is a worthy frame though. I's surprised I can get one for so cheap - why is that??

 

[particle bored]

as far as longer-than-spec shock, not sure where you got that. I am planning on installing a shorter one which will make the free bb height as low as a rfx, and adjusting the sag so it's even lower.

Sorry! I thought you were talking about shock length for the 6-Pack/RFX, not for the VP-Free. My mistake!

good to know that the 6 pack is a worthy frame though. I's surprised I can get one for so cheap - why is that??

I'll bet that it's because a lot of people bought 6-Packs thinking they'd ride them on burlier stuff, and then realized that they would be better off on a 5-Spot or something similarly "smaller". I'm willing to bet that a lot of people who buy MTBs don't use them to their design limits. I would doubt seriously that most people who ride 6-Packs do so. I think most who ride 5-Spots don't push them very hard either. A lot of people like to set up the image of burliness, even if they ride like Old Aunt Sally.

Or it's because people are whimsical and like to have whatever's the latest/greatest. And to be honest, the 6-Pack really is descended from an old standard in the Turner line, the original RFX, which means that it's not the latest/greatest. Like it doesn't have a virtual pivot point. Like a lot of people believe the hype about the Nomad and think that they should have the Nomad instead, even if they already have a 6-Pack. We're a finicky group, mountain bikers. We like to buy or try new stuff all the time... most of us, that is.

I've settled on Turner's designs after owning a lot of different FS rigs. I'm happiest with them, and super-happy with the 6-Pack and 5-Spot.

But you should probably hang onto your VP-Free if big lift-serve riding like Whistler is a regular part of your riding.

 

[erikkellison]

But you should probably hang onto your VP-Free if big lift-serve riding like Whistler is a regular part of your riding.

it WAS a part of my riding. now i think it will never be like that again, just because i never want to be this broken again. i think i'll stick to slower n. shore stuff, trail rides and stuff in between. no "fast 'n' huge" for me anymore, i like my body too much.
but, i may have a buyer for my free/roco frame/shock ($1150 if anyone else is interested), and selling that will permit me to get a 6-pack w/ a dhx air. doesn't seem like a bad alternative considering what i've heard here.
anyway, i can always re-upgrade if i change my mind.

 

[particle bored]

it WAS a part of my riding. now i think it will never be like that again, just because i never want to be this broken again. i think i'll stick to slower n. shore stuff, trail rides and stuff in between. no "fast 'n' huge" for me anymore, i like my body too much.
but, i may have a buyer for my free/roco frame/shock ($1150 if anyone else is interested), and selling that will permit me to get a 6-pack w/ a dhx air. doesn't seem like a bad alternative considering what i've heard here.
anyway, i can always re-upgrade if i change my mind.

Hah. Yesterday I rode some pretty danged tame lift-served on my big bike. On one uphill hip/wallridish turn, I carried too much speed and got too high on the bank, hit a huge chunk of granite, and got pitched across the trail to the downhill slope. The crash was pretty spectacular, but mostly because it was a dusty day. Anyway, I escaped with no damage to the bike and only two small scrapes to my body -- which would have been zero scrapes had I been wearing my FlakJacket. But after the day was up I decided that my huge bike makes me ride too fast for the slow healing that I suffer these days. That's why I'm switching to having the 6-Pack as my big bike and trying to slow down. BTW, I rode my 6-Pack on Mt Seymour last June, it handled everything very well. It's definitely a good bike for the Shore if you're not doing Dangerous Dan sized drops on Bowen Island.

DHX Air is pretty nice but I'd bet you would like it better with DHX 5.0 and if weight is an issue, a Ti spring.

 

[erikkellison]

Okay, I found other bikes to add to the list, in case anyone cares (for research purposes, I guess).
That Specialized Enduro (see my other thread for details) is pretty cool.
Chumba Evo (2006), tad heavy though.
Also, the Nicolai Helius FR is a GREAT frame.

 

[dlb]

I had a 6 Pack last year and this year I have a 06 RFX, there is no issue what so ever with horst link vs the TNT, they still ride so plush and with no braking effects on the bike. Ive ridden a Free and they do pedal nice, I think that even with an air shock, the bike will always feel like a big bike. Slack angles, heavy frame and such. There has been several Highline riders that have done this as well and they like the outcome and ride of the bike. Fox Van36 fork and a shorter stroke DHX Air rear shock. The bikes are coming in around 36 pounds. I would like to try one someday just to see how they ride. I guess this is how your lighter version Free would be, around 36 pounds with the same type of shock and fork depending on wheels. A friend of mine tried a Van36 on his VPX, he didnt like the steeper headangle at all, back came the Shiver, I guess thats where the shorter stroke shock would come in. My RFX weighs 32 pounds I had it at Mammoth last month but I was riding with the wifee so no steep stuff for me, I guess thats probably better, I svck anyway at freeriding so just trail riding for me! On the Turner forums there are lots of pic's with the RFX/Pack in FR action, big drops to flat in Utah, high fling action in Whistler with no real complaints and no breakage reports. I think one Whistler rider has a pic with a Fox 40 on his Pack, lots of Marzocchi 66 forks and Fox Van36's. Build weights from the 32 pound range up to 40 pounds. (but those are mostly the older heavier frames)

 

[dooner]

Great bike, I rode mine for a couple of seasons before UGI hit and I replaced it with a VPX. Large size fit me perfect (6'0") for all around/technical riding. BB measured a bit high with a 150mm '05 66 on it, but it rode great. Back end is really supple with the Romic, and pedals good as long as you stay seated.

Going off the big GLC drop, I would bottom the Romic most times. A DHX would probably be a lot better for drops.

I still have my frame around, might be interested in some kind of trade for your wheelset?

 

[RJM]

What ever happened to the search for a downsized bike?

Bet the RFX will suit you perfectly.

It will be a much better handling bike in the slow techy stuff compared to the VP free.

I have an 01' rfx that rules. Its a chameleon, 3 different rockers. 3 travel options, 2 shocks, 1 fork.

Its running at 5" in the rear now 6.3" in the front. The HA is 66.5 degrees. Super sick! 33#.

Peace

 

[erikkellison]

Cool sounding RFX. I wish my bike had a 66.5* HTA. Oh well.
I ended up getting a Nicolai Helius FR off the classifieds here. It is in between the M and L RFX, which was what I almost bought. But the Nicolai came out on top for the following reasons:
5 Year transferrable warranty
Better quality welding
Significantly lighterweight (includes fancier butted tubes/stays)
Needle bearings instead of bushings
More adjustable w/o additional hardware
Speed Holes

The Nicolai and the RFX were both roughly the same price, both had DHX Air's, both were anodized, and both were reputed to have stellar build quality and great CS.

I made a thread about it in the freeride section, it's pretty fun. I have it in 5.5" travel mode right now, w/ a 67.9* HTA and a 5.7" fork. It weighs somewhere in the low 30's (no clue where), and is quite possibly the most fun bike I've ever had - it's certainly the fastest overall. I wish the geo was able to be more slack w/o the rear tire rubbing, but I'm thinking about swapping out the tire for a smaller one so I can get it down to the low 67's in HTA, or keep it at 67.9* in 6" mode. After riding it thoroughly, the only bike I wish I had considered more would be the Nomad/6.6. But then again, they're going to be a little more cumbersome with the 1.5"-2" extra travel. I like being low to the ground, it makes cornering easier, and difficult situations more stable, and makes me feel safer (since I'm not too keep on hurting my healing wrist again so soon).