[Kevin]

The French have proposed a law that makes denying the Armenian genocide by Turkey a crime.
The subject of the Armenian genocide has become a bit of a problem among European countrys because Turkey doesnt want to aknowlegde it and even forbids its residents to do any research on it by law, while the rest of the world says a genocide has in fact taken place and Turkey needs to aknowledge it.

Personally I think if it has taken place they should aknowledge it but the irony in this question wants that a lot of the protesting countrys have had their share of problems in the past as well.
Turkey has therefore threatened France with a law that makes denying the French genocide on Algiers a crime...

The genocide has not been proven a 100% certain but most "western" research is pointing in the wrong direction for the Turks.
What do you monkeys know about this?
Ive done the google thing but it wasnt very helpfull and I would like to know more on the subject.

 

[N8 v2.0]

didn't this supposedly happen during WWI... almost 100 years ago?

how relevent.

 

[SofaKingBanned]

well, it's as relevant as denying the Holocaust or Slavery.

If Turkey's concern is financial responsibility, I can see that cuz you know the US wouldn't want to pay descendents of slaves.

That said, if Turkey did do it, they should admit it, blame the ones who did it and not take personal responsibility... governmental mea culpa.

 

[skinny mike]

for a second i thought the title was american genocide.

 

[N8 v2.0]

well, it's as relevant as denying the Holocaust or Slavery.

If Turkey's concern is financial responsibility, I can see that cuz you know the US wouldn't want to pay descendents of slaves.

That said, if Turkey did do it, they should admit it, blame the ones who did it and not take personal responsibility... governmental mea culpa.

Well, the US waged a war of genocide against the indians and never really acknowledged it... because at the time it was something that was done.

 

[Kevin]

didn't this supposedly happen during WWI... almost 100 years ago?

how relevent.

Well, the US waged a war of genocide against the indians and never really acknowledged it... because at the time it was something that was done.

Obviously you have no knowledge on this subject whatsoever so maybee you should just keep your mouth shut when grown ups are talking?

 

[N8 v2.0]

Obviously you have no knowledge on this subject whatsoever so maybee you should just keep your mouth shut when grown ups are talking?

where are they and when will they start talking?


Besides the law is largly viewed as French politicians sucking up to the French Armenian's who make up several of their districts... too bad it ain't such the selfless act that you make it out to be.

 

[Kevin]

where are they and when will they start talking?

Oyeah thats right, you wouldnt recognize one if one slapped you in the face.
I remember that from previous topics on grown up stuff...

 

[N8 v2.0]

Oyeah thats right, you wouldnt recognize one if one slapped you in the face.
I remember that from previous topics on grown up stuff...

maybe your finger ain't the only thing stick in a dyke..???

 

[Kevin]

too bad it ain't such the selfless act that you make it out to be.

I didnt make it out to be anything. I was just looking for information on the subject.
I wasnt asking for someone to be a smartass.

 

[N8 v2.0]

This is pretty amusing especially since France is part of the Blue Ribbon Commission looking into whether or not genocide occured in the Sudan or not for the last 3 years or so... and still hasn't made a decision...


France's Armenian genocide bill hurts Turkish EU bid
Oct. 13, 2006. 01:00 AM
SANDRO CONTENTA
EUROPEAN BUREAU

LONDON—A French bill making it a crime to deny that Armenians suffered genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turks is being widely described as a blow to Turkey's chances of joining the European Union.

The bill — also denounced by critics as an attack on free speech — was approved by France's lower house of parliament yesterday. But either the Senate or President Jacques Chirac is expected to block it from becoming law.

Still, the vote caused a political storm, not least because some interpreted it as a bid by leading candidates in the presidential election next year to exploit anti-Turkey feelings in France.

France's Armenian community, one of the largest in Europe at an estimated 500,000, had pushed hard for the bill. It sets the same penalty as a French law that makes denial of the Nazi genocide of Jews a crime — a one-year prison term and a 45,000 euro ($64,000) fine.

"Does a genocide committed in World War I have less value than a genocide committed in World War II? Obviously not," Philippe Pomezec, an MP with the ruling Union for a Popular Movement (UMP), said during the parliamentary debate in Paris. Turkey denies the premise of the bill, that some 1.5 million Armenians, most of them Christians, were systematically massacred or starved to death during the disintegration of the Ottoman empire in 1915.

It argues that thousands of Turks and Armenians died during inter-ethnic violence when Russia invaded the empire's eastern provinces in World War I. Modern Turkey, an officially secular state with a largely Muslim population of 70 million, was established in 1923.

The bill passed the same day that Turkish novelist Orhan Pamuk won the Nobel Prize for literature.

Pamuk was recently charged with "insulting Turkishness" after telling a Swiss newspaper that no one in Turkey dared mention the Armenian massacre. The charges were dropped during the trial.

To some defenders of free speech, France's bid to criminalize denial of the massacre was no different than Turkey's attempts to punish those who mention it.

"Voltaire must be spinning in his grave," said Andrew Duff, a British member of the European Parliament, referring to the 17th century French philosopher and civil libertarian.

France's centre-right government didn't support the bill — proposed by the opposition Socialist party — but allowed its UMP members to vote freely. The government promised to block the bill in the Senate, but Turkey said the damage had been done.

"French-Turkish relations ... have been dealt a severe blow today as a result of the irresponsible false claims of French politicians who do not see the political consequences of their actions," the Turkish Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

Turkish analysts said the vote exposes the depth of anti-Turkey feeling in France, a founding member of the European Union.

They predicted a backlash in Turkey that boosts nationalist sentiment and weakens support for the legal reforms necessary to join the 25-nation EU.

The possible entry of the first Muslim nation into what is now an exclusively Christian club raises anxieties in a number of European countries, even though negotiations between Turkey and the EU are expected to last at least a decade.

 

[SofaKingBanned]

Well, the US waged a war of genocide against the indians and never really acknowledged it... because at the time it was something that was done.

Wait, seriously?

The "USA" intentionally and specifically wanted to destroy the indian "race"? As in all native americans?

I know they used biological warfare (eg. plagued blankets), but I thought that was more of a 'tactic' then a conscious decision to kill ALL indians.

 

[Kevin]

Long story

Yeah thats a pretty good story if you still believe Turkey wants to join the E.U...

 

[Kevin]

But as I said before, I just want to know what you guys know about the Armenian genocide.

 

[DaveW]

The genocide has not been proven a 100% certain but most "western" research is pointing in the wrong direction for the Turks.
What do you monkeys know about this?
Ive done the google thing but it wasnt very helpfull and I would like to know more on the subject.

Wiki's take on it.....

Judging by the turkish reactions every time it's brought up, they do have some serrious issues they need to work thru.

 

[rockwool]

I used to know a guy whos mother was Armenian. He harboured realy strong anti Turkish feelings because of the genocide aswell as that Turkey stole mt. Ararat from Armenia, which is like a holy place for the Armenians because it's said that Noahs Ark stranded there (if I remember it correctly). I don't remember him having anti Russian feelings but he and his mother were strongly anti communists.

Since all my relatives are Greek I could compare his anti Turkish feelings to those in Greece and I found them to be a bit stronger among Armenians (...if he was an average). I've heard claims from Greeks that Turks commited genocide on ~1mil Greeks living in Constantinopel/Pontus/Asia Minor when they forced everybody to leave Turkey in the early-mid 20th century.
I don't know for sure how true that is and how much of them died in the wars of 1912-13 and 1922-23.

Since the founder of modern Turkey, Kemal Attaturk in the 19th century, their politics have been a bit on the extreme side even though they are a secularized state. There are at least 20 minorities (I've heard numbers double that) living in Turkey but they are not recognized by the state who wants to assimilate everybody to Turks and nothing else.

The Kurds, probaly being the biggest minority, are for instance not alowed to speak/teach their language and are not recognized as anything else but Turks. They have many laws that are remarkable or agressive, just like the example posted in N8's article when that writer was charged with "insulting Turkishness", and that agressiveness shows it self every where in Turkeys domestic politics as well as its foreign, like in Cyprus or against Greece.

From what I know of Turkey (not the Ottomans), how they are and what they have done with their extreme politics, my belief on what happened is with the Armenians.

Well, the US waged a war of genocide against the indians and never really acknowledged it... because at the time it was something that was done.

At the time it was something that was done, true, but it don't justify a damn thing for anybody. Time is way over due to acknowledge what have been done by all countries so that truth can come out, and eventualy wisdom and reconciliation.

Turkey has therefore threatened France with a law that makes denying the French genocide on Algiers a crime...

That is pretty cool. They should do it, France needs it just as Turkey needs it!

The "USA" intentionally and specifically wanted to destroy the indian "race"? As in all native americans?

I know they used biological warfare (eg. plagued blankets), but I thought that was more of a 'tactic' then a conscious decision to kill ALL indians.

I don't think you have to have intended to kill all for it to be a genocide, just that the number of dead are at a great magnitude. Extermination/extinction/holocaust different meaning that genocide, as I know it.

 

[N8 v2.0]

It's quite helpful to harbor resentment against a country for crap that happend (or may have happend) a 100 yeas ago or longer...

 

[Transcend]

It's quite helpful to harbor resentment against a country for crap that happend (or may have happend) a 100 yeas ago or longer...

Funny. I know plenty of Jews who aren't too happy about the Holocaust. Plenty of Americans who aren't happy with the Vietnamese, and lot sof older Americans who still hate the Germans and the Japanese.

Americans specialize in being xenophobic, why can't anyone else?

 

[SofaKingBanned]

Are you equating the Holocaust with being German?

 

[Transcend]

Are you equating the Holocaust with being German?

Your posts don't even make any sense anymore.

 

[SofaKingBanned]

Your posts don't even make any sense anymore.

N8 was talking about how it's silly to resent a country for something that happened long ago.

The holocaust was primarily a German problem.

Ergo, when you said jews didn't like the holocaust, you implied that Jews have a problem with Germany.

Since a significant number of jews are or were German, your point was retarded.

 

[Transcend]

N8 was talking about how it's silly to resent a country for something that happened long ago.

The holocaust was primarily a German problem.

Ergo, when you said jews didn't like the holocaust, you implied that Jews have a problem with Germany.

Since a significant number of jews are or were German, your point was retarded.

You need reading comprehension courses. I know 6th graders who can read better than you.

 

[SofaKingBanned]

You need reading comprehension courses. I know 6th graders who can read better than you.

oh no! I incited the fury of the eBully!

 

[DaveW]

Are you equating the Holocaust with being German?

Just out of curriousity, what would you equate it with??

From an observer standpoint quite a few Jewish folk do still seem to have an issue with Germany over it..... Oh and about the USSR's treament of them too.

 

[rockwool]

Funny. I know plenty of Jews who aren't too happy about the Holocaust. Plenty of Americans who aren't happy with the Vietnamese, and lot sof older Americans who still hate the Germans and the Japanese.

Americans specialize in being xenophobic, why can't anyone else?

I read this post as that Jews aren't happy with the holocaust, and that many US WWII vets still hate Japanese or Germans still to this day. No?

 

[rockwool]

It's quite helpful to harbor resentment against a country for crap that happend (or may have happend) a 100 yeas ago or longer...

Forget a genocide of 1,5mil people in a hundred years? We're not talking about a kid that stole your bike when you was 7.

100 years might sound quite a lot in the new world but it is not a lot at all in that area. When Yugoslavia split up the South Serbians wanted to call their new country Macedonia and for that they got in trouble with the Greeks (Hellenists in Greek) because Macedonia is a province of northern Greece and has been so since the days of Alexander the great who united the different city-kingdoms which started the Hellenic period. That was ~350 B.C.

The slavs didn't arrive in the area of the norther outskirts of old Macedonia until ~700 A.D. and never really had a country. They were tribes and fought each other as that, until Serbia annexed the land between their southern border and Greece's northern border about ~mid 17th century. That's how they got their name of South Serbians. Same people and same religion but different tribes.

In 1945 the leader of Yugoslavia, the Croat Tito, had expansionsit plans and wanted a coastal city in the Mediteranean, and that was Thessalonika, the capitol of the province of Macedonia that was only about 70 kilometers south of the border. Therefore he renamed South Serbia to Macedonia.

That was never a problem for the Greeks until Yugoslavias split up when they wanted to be a country of their own, aswell as taken the sun symbol of Fillip II, the father of Alexander the great, and put it on a red background as their flag. The province of Macedoinas flag had the same sun as their flag but on a blue background. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Greek_Macedonia.png

Imagine one company try to take the name and the logo of another company... That would be impossible due to copyright laws, but in things as important as national identity and the history of that people that can obviously be done. If that wasn't enough the constitution of that newborn country, that was made up by an ultra nationalistic majority, said that their borders can't alter to the smaller, but they can expand!

They were aiming to annex the province of Macedonia. This went on for several years until they were forced by the international community to rewright thier constitution.
This was a pretty big fuss and the massmedia here in Sweden reported quite a lot about it. Stupidly obvious bias as the rest of the Yugoslav news coverage that gave unquestioned sympathy to anything non Serbian.

The Swedes being newly educated on the matter by the massmedia had big problems with those evil narrow minded stingy Greeks that wanted to keep that name for them selves and not share it with those poor people that are in such a desperate need of a country and an identity of their own. This was expressed without understanding that if South Serbia was to be named Macedonia that would mean that they stole the identity and history of a totaly other people and that it in practicly would mean a revisionism of history.

From that very moment in the mid 90's when people asked me what part of Greece I came from, and I answered Macedonia, they got confused. In their minds Macedonia wasn't greek any more even though it has had such a well known history. How will it look in a few hundred years when the Yugoslav conflict has been forgotten and the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia has existed for a while?

The Swedish institute on foreign politics didn't help much eather who gave out a book about this conflict that was only expressing the views of the South Serbians with many interviews. No Greeks were interviewed, only the view of the Greek stance on the matter by the authour. Have in mind that I find the Yugoslav conflict to have been more biasedly covered by the massmedia than the Palestinian conflict is. That should say a lot since you know my stance on that one.

What I have been trying to show with this is that why Swedes couldn't grasp why the Greeks were being unreasonable about a "stupid" old name that was too old to care about. Sweden has it's history writen down from about 14th century (if we don't count the writen stones the vikings left prior to their plundering travels from 9th century to 13th) and anything older than that is just too old to relate to as much of it could be spiced stories passed from generation to generation.

If you compare that to the Greeks who have had their history writen down from, I don't know but the oldest literature is at least 8th-6th century B.C. when the Iliad and the Odyssey was writen. That is at least 2500 more years that Greeks feel is as close to the Swedes as what happened here 600 years ago. That gives an entire different concept of what old is and therefor the roots and identification of the Greeks is way deeper than a Swede can relate to.

Isht, papyrus is way older than 1000 B.C. the Torah rolls of the Jews were writen down when? Alexis?

Anyways, the area which Armenia belongs to is pretty old so holding recentment to the Turks for what happened 100 years ago is like it happened yesterday.

 

[valve bouncer]

Your posts don't even make any sense anymore.

Ever since he started seeing that liquor rep he has turned into a raving dipsomaniac.
One might wonder why it has taken France 100 years to get its knickers in a knot over this. The fact that Turkey is attempting to join the EU is, I'm sure, coincidental.

 

[SofaKingBanned]

Just out of curriousity, what would you equate it with??

Where I live, the jews here don't hate Germany or Germans. It's not the same country. And nazis aren't restricted to Germany. There are plenty of neo-nazis in the USA.

To deny a genocide took place -- when it did -- is to condone it. Even if you don't participate in the killing, you're just as evil.

 

[N8 v2.0]

....your point was retarded.

BOOM, HEADSHOT

 

[N8 v2.0]

stuff...lots and lots of stuff...

This is exactly why the US will always be at least 10 steps ahead of Europe...

Too many Euro-weenines dredging up sh!t that happened 100's of years ago inorder to divide their constituants along ethnic/religious/national lines, all for political gain.

Much like the those dumbasses in Ireland who celebrate distant military victories against their each other in each other's neighborhoods....

 

[SofaKingBanned]

Too many Euro-weenines dredging up sh!t that happened 100's of years ago inorder to divide their constituants along ethnic/religious/national lines, all for political gain.

approved twice.

 

[rockwool]

This is exactly why the US will always be at least 10 steps ahead of Europe...

Too many Euro-weenines dredging up sh!t that happened 100's of years ago inorder to divide their constituants along ethnic/religious/national lines, all for political gain.

Much like the those dumbasses in Ireland who celebrate distant military victories against their each other in each other's neighborhoods....

Damn you're clear thinking today N8! WTF's happened?

"Originally Posted by rockwool
stuff...lots and lots of stuff... "

I wrote that? Where??

 

[Kevin]

This is exactly why the US will always be at least 10 steps ahead of Europe...

Too many Euro-weenines dredging up sh!t that happened 100's of years ago inorder to divide their constituants along ethnic/religious/national lines, all for political gain.

Much like the those dumbasses in Ireland who celebrate distant military victories against their each other in each other's neighborhoods....

Ok Ill bite.

The US 10steps ahead of Europe?
In what?
Making the world hate your guts?

The only reason the US isnt dragging up old **** is because your to busy with being at war with the rest of the world all the goddamn time. All for political gain indeed.

You talk about the Irish celebrating military victorys but I dont think theres any country in the world that celebrates their war "heroes" as much as you do.
Your allways all about serving the troops and Vietnam veterans are honoured as if they were Nobel peace prize winners, all they did was fight in a bull**** war killing innocent men women and children.
Even to this day you are the only people supporting Bush and his war for oil and personall gain because you dont know jack **** about what is going on in the world other then what Fox news tells you. (at least about 50% of your citizens or whatever percentage voted for Bush...)
Ive read my books on global politics and even on American politics and recent social issues. I suggest you do the same and then come back and enlighten us with your wisdom.

 

[Transcend]

I read this post as that Jews aren't happy with the holocaust, and that many US WWII vets still hate Japanese or Germans still to this day. No?

I guess public schools are better in Sweden than the USA. Big surprise there.