Ski and snowboard racers wear skinsuits for a reason. On a course like Fort William, it makes about 8 seconds difference.
8 Seconds was the difference between 1st and 5th place. Another 8 seconds takes you to 20th.
Awesome Fabien Barel Blog Post
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8 Seconds was the difference between 1st and 5th place. Another 8 seconds takes you to 20th.
why does it seem like everyone wants to f-ing blow barel. its obvious he's a damn good rider, but it seems everyone has a hard on for this guy
Fun and cool doesnt always win races though. At the top level (WC) i think skin suits are going to be used more and more. Sure they dont look as good but as Fraser said, 8 seconds is a lot of time to lose for the sake of looking rad for the fanboys.
Fraser,
I agree and it is very difficult for most to realize this who have never been to Fort William. The race course is in the wide open and the winds are terrible. I could not ever have imagined the difference until I was fortunate enough to attend this year's event.
On a good note, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place in the men's category had a great advantage. They had the aerodynamic advantage of the e.thirteen LG1. Oh wait, is that off topic? My bad.
oops, the 5 of 6 golds were on e.thirteen product.... dang... my bad.... All kidding aside, Fabien is a top notch World Cup athlete and a top notch professional mountain biker. Not many can earn that reputation/ranking/whatever. I look forward to him racing in 2008 and beyond, racing and having fun.
Oh yeah, Paul Walton is a badass. All of the comments that you see Fabien talking about how much he thanks Paul is for real, the guy is legit. He is a mechanic with engineering experience. Pretty cool really. Those two guys were key players for for helping proving the direct mount bash for e.thirteen. Check out MSA 2005. alllllllll right!!!!
Michael
e.thirteen
f that a good skin suit looks awesome in my book and MAKES you feel faster. plus all the chicks (read 3-4) at the bottom of the hill try and grab a handful of bean bag after your run.
back on topic barel is a sick rider with so much dedication to the sport its unreal.
back on topic barel is a sick rider with so much dedication to the sport its unreal.
no visor mods going on, just a different visor. TLD's been selling the stinger since like '04. also saw more than one guy running the visor off a D2 open face helmet which has a shorter visor. i could care less about wind resistance, i just don't like seeing the end of my visor in my line of sight.exactly!!
its what i was saying about professionalism earlier.
Hill had some sort of mod to his visor too, thats just like saying "hmm well id really actually like to take this damn thing off, but imagine the stick ill get from the lads.. ok best just go half way and modify it a little, maybe they wont notice"
I agree, totally... I was really blown away by that post.okay i deffinatly see him in a totaly different light now man. thanks for sharing.
Yes but if no one wheres a skinsuit it makes no difference and keeps it even.....That's kind of the whole point of this discussion. If you sign a gentlemen's agreement, in order to make sure the "game" is fair, and then you "cheat" and break the agreed upon rules, thats pretty ****ty.
Doing everything to win aside, the "agreement" was intended to present a more sellable image as DH as a legit program with a "dress code". You don't think a PGA golfer in 100+ degree heat would have an advantage if he wore shorts, and tank top. If all players/riders agree to the same standard then they can look good,and participate on an equal field (i.e. golfers being hot, or DH'ers being less wind resistant).
How can you sell the professionalism and dedication to a sport when each you have "professional" athletes wearing jeans, tees, etc...
Obviously we are talking about skinsuits, but if an informal union is created to better everyone's chances of making more money, why cross the "picket line"
How can you sell the professionalism and dedication to a sport when each you have "professional" athletes wearing jeans, tees, etc...
Obviously we are talking about skinsuits, but if an informal union is created to better everyone's chances of making more money, why cross the "picket line"
Fabien asked fellow racers to sign agreement again i think in 2003, but nobody wanted, that's why he rode peakless and in skin suit on some courses....besides, skinsuits don't collect mud on your ass, and a racer is way more free to move on a bike. Speed over fashion anytime! True racers don't care about their looks, they care about what's faster - setup etc.!
I know a guy who changes fork legs when they are scratched! WTF
I know a guy who changes fork legs when they are scratched! WTF
That post by Fabien describes pure dedication... fantastic.
The worlds this year had to first places...
The worlds this year had to first places...
I have to explain myself here.
Of course it´s 8 seconds faster. But I guess the agreement was made for a reason.
Downhill is so far away from other bike disciplines it´s scary. It´s more BMX (and Motocross) then road-cycling/cc for sure. Different worlds really. I think skinsuits give a disorted impression for some that are not to involved in our sport. It might be bad for the face of the sport; live broadcasts on TV, sponsors and so on. Just speculating.
When you think of it, I guess the silent agreement was the right thing?
there are no spectators, so what are they worried about?
Europe you silly skirt....remember that the US is the only country that despises bicycling events.
Is there some research behind this 8 seconds faster with a skin suit? I'm not arguing it, I would just like to see it. I'm a bit sceptical myself with the varying speeds of racing DH and the relatively low airspeed or just how much aerodynamics plays a factor here. Call it curiousity.
Yes. The UK and french federations tested at ft bill for weeks leading up to worlds.
i guess the point is that if no one was wearing a skinsuit, there would be no dis-advantage to wearing a moto-style kit..
Yeh, and if every one agreed to use rigid bikes then there would be no advantage there. Why not get them all to close their eyes too, then blind people can compete on a level playing field.
If something is faster then people are going to use it because they have a better chance of winning. I think if someone had been wearing MX gear at Ft Bill then they would have looked stupid.
In all honestly, who cares what riders look like as long as they are fast?
In DH, as well as most other types of racing(Car, mx, indy, jet boat, etc.) fashion usually follows function. If a car or bike or boat or competitor doesn't look fast, most racing fans don't think it's cool. Every time I see someone post up a pic of their DH race bike on here with a big ol hucka chucker cushy seat on their bike or heavy parts, everyone drops the "Nice bike, you should change your seat" or forks or whatever. How can the same people who advocate a needle sharp roadie seat knock skinsuits or no visor?
If I were a sponsor, I would want my rider to appear to be as fast as possible, since in all forms of racing whatever is fastest is cool.
In DH, as well as most other types of racing(Car, mx, indy, jet boat, etc.) fashion usually follows function. If a car or bike or boat or competitor doesn't look fast, most racing fans don't think it's cool. Every time I see someone post up a pic of their DH race bike on here with a big ol hucka chucker cushy seat on their bike or heavy parts, everyone drops the "Nice bike, you should change your seat" or forks or whatever. How can the same people who advocate a needle sharp roadie seat knock skinsuits or no visor?
If I were a sponsor, I would want my rider to appear to be as fast as possible, since in all forms of racing whatever is fastest is cool.
It's not MX gear..It's MTB clothes inspired by MX..Yeh, and if every one agreed to use rigid bikes then there would be no advantage there. Why not get them all to close their eyes too, then blind people can compete on a level playing field.
AND it's not about leveling the field for those that need it level..you are missing the point..
Sure, if you think it's all about just winning their one race, and not the big picture of trying to make DH a discipline that can be taken seriously, wear what you want. In the meantime sports with unions and a common goal will continue to prosper..
I'm not saying no skinsuits, I am just arguing that whatever it is everyone that lines up to gate as a pro follow the code..THAT is the only way to present DH in a professional manner.
i haven't read much further than the last page, so hopefully i'm not missing the argument! i'm just too lazy to look back further!
with our sport, it's a fine balance between utilizing every effort to be the fastest down the mtn (skinsuits, no visor, etc), and marketability. I haven't necessarily been a anti-skinsuit guy....although some people SHOULD NOT wear one! haha... but until we get our sport to a point where we're attracting big name sponsors... we've gotta "look the part"... no one outside this industry really looks at DHers & says, "wow, that guy cool w/a skinsuit". they associate our sport w/ SX/MX.... can u imagine a Carmichael wearin a skinsuit at Anaheim?
Riders agreed to run visors for the same reasoning. Yes in the big scheme of things, no visors & skinsuits offer you less wind resistance & makes you faster... but at "what cost".. it's different than "agreeing to run rigid bikes"... it's not about perfromance & advantages... it's more about look & marketability.
anyway, that's the reasoning behind the riders not running skinsuits (most wouldn't run them at worlds, but their country makes them).
with our sport, it's a fine balance between utilizing every effort to be the fastest down the mtn (skinsuits, no visor, etc), and marketability. I haven't necessarily been a anti-skinsuit guy....although some people SHOULD NOT wear one! haha... but until we get our sport to a point where we're attracting big name sponsors... we've gotta "look the part"... no one outside this industry really looks at DHers & says, "wow, that guy cool w/a skinsuit". they associate our sport w/ SX/MX.... can u imagine a Carmichael wearin a skinsuit at Anaheim?
Riders agreed to run visors for the same reasoning. Yes in the big scheme of things, no visors & skinsuits offer you less wind resistance & makes you faster... but at "what cost".. it's different than "agreeing to run rigid bikes"... it's not about perfromance & advantages... it's more about look & marketability.
anyway, that's the reasoning behind the riders not running skinsuits (most wouldn't run them at worlds, but their country makes them).
Many people are saying that it takes baggy "mx style", "cool" clothes to make downhill more interesting to sponsors and big audience. I think that it really is the opposite, no one is going to take downhill as a sport seriously as long as top racers are wearing something that is not optimum for the sport. It really is the case if we want downhill to be a serious sport or somekind of weird extreme thing where racers are not actually even trying to go as fast as possible but look good while trying to still go pretty fast. A bit like skating, that is big thing but for sure not a real sport.
If downhill skiers would wear baggy shorts they would be laughed out of olympics right away.
If downhill skiers would wear baggy shorts they would be laughed out of olympics right away.
Interesting discussion. For me, a fast downhiller is the one who is fast through corners, floats over the rough - fast in the techy stuff. On a track like the one at Fort Bill, skinsuit obviously has advantages, but on other tracks I guess the difference is smaller or maybe zero.
Maybe the confusion and mixed opinions is just differences in what you believe is downhill, or a reference downhill-track. For me however, a challenging and technical DH-track spreads the results in the startfield by skills, not by skinsuits.
Maybe the confusion and mixed opinions is just differences in what you believe is downhill, or a reference downhill-track. For me however, a challenging and technical DH-track spreads the results in the startfield by skills, not by skinsuits.
How can you compare downhill skiers going 80mph to a DH race where in some sections can be going less than 5mph?
This thread is totally hijacked, but the point is not what is optimum and what isn't. It's a question of professional riders agreeing to a standard look, and having them stick to it for the sake of creating a more marketable image for the sport. Same as golf with their dress code, or the NBA requiring shirts be tucked in...
Neither of which can actually affect the athletes performance, so completely irrelevant.
Wearing a polo shirt and cotton slacks in 100% + weather will affect a golfers performance. Shorts and cutoff shirt would feel much better but it doesn't look good.
Either way it's a moot point, and read my post b/c I'm not arguing for or against skinsuits, only that a standard be created , whatever that may be, and that it be respected by the athletes.
Huh. So that's why he's a world champion and I'm not. Usually my mental process is "pedal, pedal, pedal, root, rock, pedal, f*ck I'm tired, root, flow, flow, pedal, pedal, dammit, why did I drink so much beer last night, pedal, god I'm hot, is the race over yet? dammit, not even to the flat pedally section, focus, rock, rock, rock, TREE!!!!!!!"
edit - there's usually a "wait, that wasn't the line..." thrown in there somewhere as well.
I always liked Barel as a rider but after reading his blog entries definately made me think more highly of him. He's by far a dedicated racer. I'm not one for the skinsuits but for World Cup racing, why not? They are the fastest riders in the world, every little bit helps. Plus a guy in a skinsuit going through a gnarly rock section is just badass( not in a gay way.)
This is probably the best reasoning and comparison I've seen thus far. In most all other professional sports, uniforms are "standardized" so that athletes maintain a very SPECIFIC IMAGE for the sport as a whole. Pro football, Jon Randle got banned from doing his death skull face paint so now you can only use specific "eye black" in pro and collegiate athletics.ekozy39 said:
Basketball players are a brand image for the NBA, it's sanctioning league, and thus have to wear shirts tucked in, shorts no longer than "X". Dwayne Wade had to get clearance from the league to use the spandex "performance" tights last season. He eventually stopped wearing them (since he was probably just trying to be hip anyway).
Golf has it's image to maintain so shorts and sleeveless would damage that image. Bulova doesn't want to sponsor that stuff. It makes sense to establish a "minimum dress code" for professional MTB riders in a sense to establish it's brand image.
"SF - Everyone wants to know about the peak incident in France at Alp D?Huez. Did you sign the petition last year? Why did you do it? Was it your decision? What reaction did you get at the bottom of the hill from the other riders?
FB -I didn't feel any tension at the finish line, But we signed the peak deal the year before just for one year. When I asked at Fort Williams to do the contract again, Nobody did it. We did many test in a wind room and we know that over 40 Km/h it makes a differents. So yes it was my decision. We working on our bike to go as fast as we can and they ask us to lose time for a looking reason ? I don't know about that !"
The booing from the crow at the worlds was just a small group of lower class peasant children from fort william. They were not booing for any particular reason...they probably just ran out of glue to sniff.
FB -I didn't feel any tension at the finish line, But we signed the peak deal the year before just for one year. When I asked at Fort Williams to do the contract again, Nobody did it. We did many test in a wind room and we know that over 40 Km/h it makes a differents. So yes it was my decision. We working on our bike to go as fast as we can and they ask us to lose time for a looking reason ? I don't know about that !"
The booing from the crow at the worlds was just a small group of lower class peasant children from fort william. They were not booing for any particular reason...they probably just ran out of glue to sniff.
I disagree. One thing which holds back the bike industry is the lack of casual apparel specific to cycling.
While companies like Fox produce casual cycling wear, it is not different than casual snowboarding or mx gear. Hooded sweatshirts are universal.
Gear like from Dirt Rag has more appeal to non cyclists, but I don't think lyrca skinsuits will be making a big splash.
If I was a clothing company, I would make my guys wear stuff that might sell to joe blow.
F*ck it, everybody rides naked!!!
but fox racing tops do not sell to joe blow, they sell to MTB riders. There is no item of DH cycling apparel that has a particular crossover potential to casual wear, Foxs' casual wear is completely separate to its race wear, its just that the company makes a brand image by the use of its race gear and joe blow looks at this and wants to buy into that image so he buys Fox casual clothes.
If the pros all started to wear tighter 'skinsuit' style apparel then the trend would trickle down to the grassroots level and these would also sell.
I cant see actual one piece lycra outfits ever taking off outside the world champs, but tight fitting zip up tops and 3/4 length shorts like the kit Steve Peat wore in the 02 world cup seems like a good compromise.
in my opinion we need sponsors outside of MTBing to come in, this way more riders may get paid instead of just recieving free kit and maybe some travel expenses. As mentioned before big companies/potential sponsors want to back the guy who has trained, focused and done everything in his power to be fastest, not the guy who has trained, focused mentally but then lost the race because he prefered looking cool to winning.
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Is that the "skinsuit" in question? That isn't that bad if that's the case. Dare I say that looks "pro"? It seems a lot of manufacturers are meeting in the middle lately with shorts in regards to the baggy factor. They still put those out, but I've noticed similar looking ones that are more form-fitting w/o being too spandexy in appearance.
Besides, who's in charge in regards to dress code? I would think that is a job for the UCI, no? It's not like they have any major issues with doping w/ the dh scene.
Besides, who's in charge in regards to dress code? I would think that is a job for the UCI, no? It's not like they have any major issues with doping w/ the dh scene.
Too bad this thread has degenerated into this. But since it has, this is my take. Skin suits = World Champs and thats that. The riders dont have a say the federations do. Its another cool distinguishing difference that seperates the world champs from the World Cup Series.
World Cups another story. For the good of the sport, non skin suits is the go. Race run Sam Hill tucks his shirt in and you know he means business.
Lastly the biggest anti skin suit lads are the ones who secretly enjoy wearing them the most come worlds each year. Half the riders, Aussie juniors especially, are still prancing around in the pits hours after the race in their skinsuits and bad haircuts
World Cups another story. For the good of the sport, non skin suits is the go. Race run Sam Hill tucks his shirt in and you know he means business.
Lastly the biggest anti skin suit lads are the ones who secretly enjoy wearing them the most come worlds each year. Half the riders, Aussie juniors especially, are still prancing around in the pits hours after the race in their skinsuits and bad haircuts
i think Peaty certainly looks pro in that shot, a good match of colours and his sponsors are all visible. Way better that that hideous pinstripe royal kit he wore a few seasons ago.
heres julien Camellini showing how it can look good... or very wrong!!
so again i think its really down to the design of the suit and whether the rider either has a decent build, or wears armour to combat the skinny limbs/huge head thing that i think puts alot of folk off skinsuits.
ive been trying to find shots of the one Gracia and ACC wore while riding for cannondale. the one with all the muscles on it but i cant find any
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I know Mario Cippolini wore a similar suit for a time-trial in the Tour de France and got fined, etc. like he usually did. Cannondale definitely took the "skinsuit" to a new level with that particular one, but it somehow looked sick!
Since this thread's already jacked beyond repair...
...sorry, came across this while searching for the aforementioned muscle skinsuit. For those interested, the Aquaman skinsuit is available on Ebay and, according to the seller, "REALLY NICE FOR HALLOWEEN OR JUST LOUNGING IN". Whaaaaaaa?!?
*edit*
Since this thread's already jacked beyond repair...
...sorry, came across this while searching for the aforementioned muscle skinsuit. For those interested, the Aquaman skinsuit is available on Ebay and, according to the seller, "REALLY NICE FOR HALLOWEEN OR JUST LOUNGING IN". Whaaaaaaa?!?
*edit*
