[brian field]

Hello, i have realized lately that while riding my DH bike i am over the front of my bike / front wheel , all the time . and i fell like i should be more in the center of the bike.
I am 5'11'' and top tube on my bike is 24,4 inches. is it possible that TT length is the problem(too small), i feel little bit cramped, but nothing drastic like hitting bars with knees...

Can i do something to get my ass over the back wheel, maybe longer stem, put my bars higher , i don't know ,just guessing right now ?
Now i have 50 mm stem... Or should i just learn how to ride ?

Thanks.

 

[jonnynails]

I'd say at your height the bike sounds like it should fit you with the measurements you gave. I don't know why you want to be back further all the time? Sure at times you do, but I find myself moving around more as the terrain dictates. As long as your knees aren't hitting the handlebars I'd say your good - maybe you just feel like your over the front because your head is up there?

 

[yuroshek]

your right where your suppose to be, keep staying over the front of the bike. you will have very good control of the bike and will be able to pull the bike under you if your front wheel is sliding out.

theres way more to it, ill let another monkey take it from here.

 

[sanjuro]

How did you measure your top tube? Along the top tube or on a horizontal line (parallel to the ground)? Did you measure from the center of the steerer to the center of the seatpost.

24.4 inches is awfully long for a guy under 6 foot. Most larges have no bigger than 23.5 inch horizontal top tubes...

 

[seattle_hans]

AS gene Hamilton would say stay center over your BB and you can do anything!

 

[Kevin]

Longer stem would put you even more over the front Id say... And being over the front a bit isnt allways a bad thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qq5S3NLoymU&hl=nl_NL&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qq5S3NLoymU&hl=nl_NL&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

 

[slowmtb]

Longer stem would put you even more over the front Id say... And being over the front a bit isnt allways a bad thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qq5S3NLoymU&hl=nl_NL&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qq5S3NLoymU&hl=nl_NL&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Sic as

 

[BmxConvert]

I'm 5'11" on a bike with a 24.4" effective top tube and a 50mm stem. I find that I can't get over the front end enough.
While I'm riding it feels like I'm in a good position, but in pictures and videos and I'm always in a pretty upright position.

Examples of my upright postion where I felt I was over the front end but really wasn't even all that close:

-Photo by Grubworks

-Photo by TBwind8

What makes you feel that you're too far over the front/not in the right position?

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

I also try hard to ride over the front wheel...If you feel like you're all over the front of your bike, your fork could be too soft and/or diving which will make you feel over the front wheel in a bad way. I agree with the others that if anything your bike is on the big side for your height so I'd be surprised if that was the issue.

 

[brian field]

How did you measure your top tube? Along the top tube or on a horizontal line (parallel to the ground)? Did you measure from the center of the steerer to the center of the seatpost.

24.4 inches is awfully long for a guy under 6 foot. Most larges have no bigger than 23.5 inch horizontal top tubes...

Guys, thank you very much for responses.

I made a mistake typing, TT is 22.4 , not 24.4. I measured it horizontally from center to center. Sorry.

 

[Kanye West]

22.4 sounds really short for someone your height. I made the mistake of riding a frame too small like that for a while and my form sucked on it.

 

[RMR]

22.4" is a very different story than 24.4". Some people like a short bike and some like more room. I'm 6' and I ride a Sunday in Large, though most people my size have told me it feels too big for them.

TT measurement isn't a very accurate indicator of size for downhill bikes, since a person is almost always standing and some frames use dramatically angled seatposts. What is the model and size of your bike?

It's possible your bike is too short, but there could be other causes:

1. Lack of arm and shoulder strength

2. A fork that sits too low in its travel

3. A rear that sits too high in its travel

4. Overly fast rebound in the rear, causing you to get bucked forward

5. An excessively low handlebar

6. An excessively steep head-tube angle

It's difficult to diagnose this one over the internet!

 

[brian field]

Here is more information that could help.
Frame is 2007 Morewood izimu Size small , rear spring is 400 (dhx 5.0) ( i am 154 lbs) with 5 clicks of rebound from the fastest, and one click of propedal.
Fork is 2007 boxxer with silver spring ( soft) 3 clicks of low speed compression, 12 clicks of gate. and rebound is a bit faster than rear.
Thanks guys for helping me i appreciate this a lot.

 

[vtminuteman]

Try the a medium spring in the fork. At your weight you are in between springs, and I bet the soft felt good to start because you were a little bit back on the bike. But now your getting more aggressive and are in the middle to front of the bike and the fork is not sitting high enough in the travel.

On my 08 boxxer I ran the stock medium spring and I weight 145lbs, I'm also a very agro rider. Try a med spring for a few rides and then switch back, you should be able to tell if its a good or bad change.

 

[davep]

Here is more information that could help.
Frame is 2007 Morewood izimu Size small , rear spring is 400 (dhx 5.0) ( i am 154 lbs) with 5 clicks of rebound from the fastest, and one click of propedal.
Fork is 2007 boxxer with silver spring ( soft) 3 clicks of low speed compression, 12 clicks of gate. and rebound is a bit faster than rear.
Thanks guys for helping me i appreciate this a lot.

Well, there are certainly some things that are a bit odd. As mentioned, the frame is on the small side for your height. This will make it feel like you can get too far over the front or rear pretty easy. A rider of your weight, on an 8.2" travel frame with a 3" shock (what the Izimu has..at least the new ones, morewood does not have info for older models) should be on roughly a 300lb spring. Your 400lb spring is more appropiate for someone just over 200lbs. As for your fork, simply looking at the dust marks on the stanchions will give you a good idea of the travel you are using and if your spring is appropriate (IMO you are pretty close, and the stock spring will be WAY over sprung for you... both in my own experience (about 190lb and running stock spring w/o bottoming) and according to peoples posted findings when that 'version' was new).

At 5'11 and 155lbs, I think it is pretty fair to say that you dont have a lot of muscle. With a small bike, once you hands/bars get tucked under your chest (toward your waist) by getting 'too far forward' it takes a lot of shoulder strength to push your upper body up and back. You can help this by increasing shoulder strength as well as working on keeping you elbows out, rather than tucking them in.
You might also try a little longer stem (or wider bars). It may sound like this would just put you further forward, but with your hands further out front (and wider within reason), you are far more able to push you upper body back and up..keeping you centered on the bike.

 

[brian field]

At 5'11 and 155lbs, I think it is pretty fair to say that you dont have a lot of muscle. With a small bike, once you hands/bars get tucked under your chest (toward your waist) by getting 'too far forward' it takes a lot of shoulder strength to push your upper body up and back. .

Yeah i know i need to gain weight,.. that's the truth. Your description is the way i feel on the bike, all tucked in under my chest, and riding upright , over the bars.
I will try to play with different springs, but should i consider buying a bigger frame?

 

[RMR]

brian,

I'm seeing a number of problems here.

A friend of mine had a Large Izimu that felt about right for me - perhaps a bit small (I'm 6', but I like a long bike). He's 230 lbs and likes his suspension stiffer than I would recommend. He used a 500 lb/in spring, if I recall. I think it's safe to say you'd benefit from a larger bike and a considerably softer shock spring.

You mentioned you're using a soft spring in your Boxxer. I don't ride a Boxxer, but I do like my fork on the soft side, so I won't say your fork is too soft. I will, however, say it's almost certainly out of balance with your rear suspension and putting the bike into a nose-down position.

I think your equipment/set-up is the root cause, but davep makes a good point about strength. I've found a good exercise to help resist that too-far-forward feeling is to do push-ups with my hands as far back as possible. Do them from your knees, rather than your toes, and position your hands about level with your navel. Also try to ride with your elbows out, rather than near your torso.

 

[brian field]

Thanks, now i have base points where i can try to cure the problem. If I decide do buy a new frame , what size should i be looking for ? Large, medium?

 

[davec113]

I agree there seem to be a few issues here:

- Frame size is too small. You can compensate, but it's just not ideal. I'd get a larger frame. At 5' 11" you can go med or large... depends on your preferences and what frame you're considering. I'm 6' and prefer large frames.

- Rear end has more spring rate than front. I had an '06 Boxxer and I thought the stiffest spring was a bit on the soft side. My '09 Fox 40 with stock (med.?) spring has a higher spring rate than my Boxxer.

- Body position... elbows out and body low allows you to be more stable fore/aft on the bike. The video "Fluidride: Like a Pro" goes over this, and specifically mentions the issues you are having. This vid is a good investment.

This could be better news, but finding equipment that is sized and set up properly is important. Doesn't matter so much what you ride as long as you're comfortable on it and size and setup is workable.

 

[slowitdown]

Body position is something I focus on a lot because I do a lot of downhill skiing this time of year. An alpine skier needs to be able to engage the shovels and drive the turn from the front of the ski, or he will never reach high levels in his skiing. The same holds for riding MTBs on a descending line. You need to have the front wheel in the mix if you want to ride at the highest levels.

From a body awareness perspective I would suggest trying to remember that all body position ideas in athletic movement need a frame of reference.

Example -- Say you learn how to ride on relatively flat terrain and when you get into steep stuff you find that you're just surfing the rear wheel. This is a decent survival tool if you don't have the skill for or experience in riding any other way. The first time you find the 'nads to get more forward it will probably feel like you're riding in Endo City with your chin on the front tire. Then some pictures will show you that you're still surfing the rear wheel, you're just not surfing it as completely as before.

What feels like a lot of difference often is a small physical difference.

And if your bike is un-balanced in its front / rear suspension mix, it can be even harder to achieve the needed larger physical difference.

I think of the deal as being about relative wheel weighting/emphasis. Aim at trying to feel more at the front wheel, aim at trying to place your front wheel where you want it.

Riding a chunky DH on a hardtail bike that has a decent fork can help get this emphasis as something you'll feel and learn by feeling.

 

[RMR]

If I decide do buy a new frame , what size should i be looking for ? Large, medium?

As davec113 said, it depends on the specific model. I'm also 6' and I also like long frames, so I always go with a Large, but some Larges are a lot larger than others.

Unfortunately, the horizontal top tube measurement doesn't accurately represent the way a bike will feel when you're riding it, so feel free to ask on the forum about the lengths of frames you're considering and we'll give a quick reply, then spend a few days arguing about head angles.

 

[DirtyMike]

Thanks, now i have base points where i can try to cure the problem. If I decide do buy a new frame , what size should i be looking for ? Large, medium?

If you can, go ride some, I am like others, right at six foot, and I ride a large. I cen get down and low into the front, I can get back and over the back when needed...Transition Blindside, hopefully that can give some reference.

 

[Jeremy R]

Hey Brian,
Dave P already gave you some good info, but I will chime in because I have the same setup. I am 5'10 and on a small Izimu.
First off, the main thing you need to do is get a 300 lb spring.
The Izimu works better with lots of sag, and with the rear softer than the front. I don't know if you are heavy enough to get away with the running the stock spring in your boxxer, but at least do some test runs to see.
I am running a 55mm e13 stem, and it seems to help as well (I couldn't even ride the bike when I tried it in the 45mm setting.)
And what I am about to tell you next goes against how most people set up current dh bikes, but I learned this by riding with pinners who were killing it on Izimus. Don't be afraid to raise the front end of the bike.
The Izimu works best when upright over the front, and with the rear soft and loading up to pop you out of corners.
Good luck and post back up and let us know if you get it straight.

 

[DirtyMike]

Hey Brian,
Dave P already gave you some good info, but I will chime in because I have the same setup. I am 5'10 and on a small Izimu.
First off, the main thing you need to do is get a 300 lb spring.
The Izimu works better with lost of sag, and with the rear softer than the front. I don't know if you are heavy enough to get away with the running the stock spring in your boxxer, but at least do some test runs to see.
I am running a 55mm e13 stem, and it seems to help as well (I couldn't even ride the bike when I tried it in the 45mm setting.)
And what I am about to tell you next goes against how most people set up current dh bikes, but I learned this by riding with pinners who were killing it on Izimus. Don't be afraid to raise the front end of the bike.
The Izimu works best when upright over the front, and with the rear soft and loading up to pop you out of corners.
Good luck and post back up and let us know if you get it straight.

That actually makes sense if your on a bike that is too small for you








For the record, I am also on the boat of getting over the front, and sticking your front wheel wear you want it to go.

For reference

 

[brian field]

I bought 300 lbs spring, and will try it to see the differences. And then work from there.

Jeremy R > I didn't understand by raising the front of the bike, did you mean, raise my bars or make suspension stiffer to ride higher in the travel?
Thanks.

 

[Orfen]

At 5'11 and 155lbs, I think it is pretty fair to say that you dont have a lot of muscle.

I know people that size that are stronger than a lot of heavier guys.

Bike size and body position is such a personal thing - everyone rides differently. But this thread has a lot of good suggestions

 

[SuboptimusPrime]

Pretty sure he means raising the height of your bars. The trend lately has been to get your handle bars as close to the ground as possible for the better handling provided by allowing you to really get over the front wheel, but if you're on a little bike you may not want to go as low as possible. It also sounds like this is particularly true in the case of the Izimu.

I'm in the same boat being 6'2" and riding medium bikes (currently a Sunday). My thought is that, I'm already able to weight the front of the bike as much as I want/need to with my bars where they are, not super high, but lets say that I haven't invested in a drop stem or flat handlebar either.

 

[ebarker9]

I know people that size that are stronger than a lot of heavier guys.

Bike size and body position is such a personal thing - everyone rides differently. But this thread has a lot of good suggestions

Exactly. A guy like Gee Atherton is listed as a little bit taller and around 10lb heavier. I don't see physical strength holding him back.

And it is nice to see an actual discussion on riding technique. To brian...why do you feel that your riding position is "wrong"? Can you get back over the rear wheel riding around in the parking lot? Any particular situations where you feel you're not centered on the bike?

 

[Jeremy R]

I bought 300 lbs spring, and will try it to see the differences. And then work from there.

Jeremy R > I didn't understand by raising the front of the bike, did you mean, raise my bars or make suspension stiffer to ride higher in the travel?
Thanks.

I would try to stiffen up the suspension first, and if that is not enough consider raising your bar. With that said, personally for me, I am running the e13 stem in the 55 setting which is high for a stem, but other than that my setup is slammed low. But I know other guys who have benefited from raising the front end on the Izimu. I weigh 180 and run a 300 pound spring on a CCDB (which is borderline too soft ) and I run the stock spring in an 08 boxxer team. I don't have issues at all with the cockpit size.
The wheelbase could be a little longer on the fast stuff, but it feels great when it is tight and twisty.

 

[DirtyMike]

I know people that size that are stronger than a lot of heavier guys.

Bike size and body position is such a personal thing - everyone rides differently. But this thread has a lot of good suggestions

I dont think he was trying to say he wasnt strong, but that he doesnt have alot of muscle mass.

 

[sanjuro]

22.4" is a very different story than 24.4". Some people like a short bike and some like more room. I'm 6' and I ride a Sunday in Large, though most people my size have told me it feels too big for them.

TT measurement isn't a very accurate indicator of size for downhill bikes, since a person is almost always standing and some frames use dramatically angled seatposts. What is the model and size of your bike?

It's possible your bike is too short, but there could be other causes:

1. Lack of arm and shoulder strength

2. A fork that sits too low in its travel

3. A rear that sits too high in its travel

4. Overly fast rebound in the rear, causing you to get bucked forward

5. An excessively low handlebar

6. An excessively steep head-tube angle

It's difficult to diagnose this one over the internet!

I agree, but front center is a littler harder to explain...

 

[davep]

I dont think he was trying to say he wasnt strong, but that he doesnt have alot of muscle mass.

I figured someone would through a fit over that statement. I guess I will start needing to add a statement to my post to NOT read your personal thoughts into my post (rather than simply reading and understanding what I DID write).

As mentioned above, the particular movement to push your chest/body weight back and up when your hands are at your waist and your elbows are tucked to your sides is VERY hard. It is purely a physiology issue. If you get into a postion while riding, where your hands at are your waist, and you are bent over your bars...things wont be pretty. One would need some pretty specific excercises to build strength in that movement.

Comparing a 100% full time cyclist who is constantly training, riding, and weight training with professional techniques and trainers...to regular weekend warrior (I am sure someone will get pissy about that as well) is a little silly...


Back on topic....
Listen to Jeremy(paying attention to your resective size differences), he is the only one that has the same frame as you.

What are you running for bars(how wide and tall)/stem (length and rise) as well as headset and spacers?

 

[brian field]

Davep, i didn't get offended, you are correct , i could gain more muscle...
As for bars and stem setup. Sunline v one 745mm ,19 mm rise , and sunline direct mount stem (50mm). Headset is e.13 cups with fsa ( orbit something) :-D , all slammed down with 6 mm of spacers.

 

[RMR]

I agree, but front center is a littler harder to explain...

Even front centre isn't an ideal measurement of DH frame fit, since it's affected by head angle. It's a good measurement for road bikes that all use the same length of fork, 73° head angle, and about 43mm of fork offset - in other words, essentially standardized front-end geometry.

A better measurement would be the horizontal distance between the top of the head-tube and the BB, but this is impractical when using a tape measure. Measuring the length of the down-tube is a decent substitute - not perfect, but more meaningful than a horizontal top-tube measurement.

 

[dicey]

Looking at your options of either large or small i"d say you may the right size choice. For your rider weight it sounds like your oversprung in the rear end a bit. Your stem size is pretty standard, but a longer one would only lengthen the cockpit of your bike. Most dhers are looking to keep bars at a minium rise so they can stay low and compact, so i wouldn't go up on the bars unless your running a o rise bar now, which given a persons riding style can be a bit low. I have a boxxer lie yours and general only open the gate a few clicks, risking blowing it running it wide open( think 15 clicks is max). Higher compression or thicker oil can stiffen and slow down the front end, but at your weight that shouldn't be necessary.
Now, with a few minor tweaks in set aside, your equipment is probally isn't the problem. There is a HUGE difference in being over the front end and having your center of gravity over the front end. I guessing without seeing you ride, you got to much weight foward of the bars. this will generally lead to a mushy front end feel and/or a kicking out of the rear end, which tends to lead to a quick bitch slap to the ground. Your C.G. should be over your bb while you should be down low (leaning foward) but not with your chest past the front end. Bike should move under you while keeping your c.g. over the bb! good luck! hope this makes since

 

[MarkDH]

I am running a 55mm e13 stem, and it seems to help as well (I couldn't even ride the bike when I tried it in the 45mm setting.)

Funny you should mention that. I've recently changed from a Giant DH Team to a Sunday, and I've been told (and have been finding myself) that it's best to ride this bike over the front. I'm currently running a 40mm 0deg stem, just taken off my old bike. I've been thinking that a 50mm stem might make it easier to get my weight over the front wheel, but I just can't get my head around 10mm making that much difference. I mean thicker grips you could say effectively put your weight back by 2-3mm, and I don't want to waste £50 on a stem that makes no difference. Saying that, 60mm+ seems to be getting into XC territory! I know you said you couldn't ride the bike, but could you elaborate on the differences a bit, cheers?

 

[Jeremy R]

Funny you should mention that. I've recently changed from a Giant DH Team to a Sunday, and I've been told (and have been finding myself) that it's best to ride this bike over the front. I'm currently running a 40mm 0deg stem, just taken off my old bike. I've been thinking that a 50mm stem might make it easier to get my weight over the front wheel, but I just can't get my head around 10mm making that much difference. I mean thicker grips you could say effectively put your weight back by 2-3mm, and I don't want to waste £50 on a stem that makes no difference. Saying that, 60mm+ seems to be getting into XC territory! I know you said you couldn't ride the bike, but could you elaborate on the differences a bit, cheers?

For my setup, the shorter stem just made the cockpit too tight and I was too far off the back. Changing the e13 stem to 55 moves it out but also up, and it worked well for my setup. Its all relative to frame size though. On a normal fitting frame, I have always preferred a standard 50mm stem.

 

[MarkDH]

For my setup, the shorter stem just made the cockpit too tight and I was too far off the back. Changing the e13 stem to 55 moves it out but also up, and it worked well for my setup. Its all relative to frame size though. On a normal fitting frame, I have always preferred a standard 50mm stem.

Yeah I did a few searches on here and found that most people are running 50mm, very few running 40mm or shorter, it does seem to be standard. I was actually just out in the garage there, and I checked out the stem I previously used on my bikes. I thought it was a 50mm but it turns out it was 40mm as well, so I suppose I'm used to it. Perhaps going a bit longer would get me just a bit more over the front, and I think also it might slow the steering down a bit. It works great in tight snappy stuff but sometimes on flat out bits it can feel a bit twitchy.

 

[monkeyfcuker]

Mark like I told you at Inners, it's all about the flat bars Man up biatch

 

[MarkDH]

Mark like I told you at Inners, it's all about the flat bars Man up biatch

Ha, no thanks, too much of a mind f*ck when you look down! Flat bars are like fish flavoured jam, they're just wrong and should be stopped.