[ALEXIS_DH]

hi. i´ve been always satisfied with the dealer-installed audio options in my cars, or whatever came from the previous owner.

i´ve got pretty simple setups right now. the optional toyota cd player with 2 "improved" dealer speakers, and a pioneer deh-2850mp (50w*4 according to the manual) unit on the camaro with 2 speakers (combo sale!).

i think i need something more for the toyota.
i mostly listen to 128-192 kbps mp3s, so audio fidelity isnt life or death. i dont listen to loud music. i´d switch the pioneer to the toyota (unless its so crappy you guys recommend i get another one). so thats my starting point.
i dont want to spend more than 1000 bucks, if possible. but the budget isnt set on stone, so its up to price/performance bang4buck considerations.

i´ve been thinking about a simple setup. 4 speakers, hopefully a subwoofer. i´d go for an amplifier if price/improvement ratio isnt that bad. what would i miss going without an amplifier? if budget allows for only one, what should i go? amplifier or subwoofer?

i´ve been trying to learn on the internet, but there is too many stuff to learn, i dont even know where to start. so if you guys know any pages to learn, that be great. i want to go to the audio store with some knowledge beforehand.

or if you think that at my bugdet i should just go for 4 speakers. or just opinions on where you get the most bang-buck, and
general recommendations would be appreciated too.

 

[Toshi]

your "50W" head unit is probably 50W peak. RMS is the important number, and i bet that's 15W or less. that's pretty poor but par for the course: if you want to play you basically need an amp.

what i'd do:

- 4 channel amp @ ~75W RMS/channel
- 10" sub in cheap box off of two of the channels of the amp bridged
- cheap(ish) coax (vs. component) 6.5" in the front doors running off of the other two channels of the amp
- keep your rear speakers, run them off of the built in headunit power

my personal system, basically what i recommend +/- different brand/level hardware and the extra amp since i run components:

- no head unit
- ipod is the source, most everything ripped as lossless
- JL 300/4 and e2150 amps in the trunk being fed by the ipod
- JL 10w3v2 off of the two bridged channels on the e2150
- all four channels of the 300/4 going to the front speakers, MB Quart 6.5" components, 4 channels == L/R * mids/tweeters
- the stock, paper rear speakers set up as fill by leeching off of the non-tweeter channels of the 300/4. you don't need high frequencies in your fill speakers

 

[Kornphlake]

Pretty much what Toshi said I guess. I think you can get a pretty good system for well under $1000. Some things to look out for are preouts on the headunit for front, rear and sub channels. It will make your wiring a lot simpler than trying to use line level inputs and filters. I recommend a seperate amp for the subwoofer, but only because I went the route of buying premium speakers in all 4 doors and the rears just don't sound that great with only 15 watts. You can say that you don't like to listen to music very loud but once you've got a system that has even 40W RMS you'll find yourself keeping the volume a little higher. When you run speakers off the headunit you get distortion and clipping at high volume levels, it's not so much uncomfortable to listen to music that loud as it's annoying to hear the limitations of the system. When you're pushing more power to the speakers the music will be uncomfortably loud before you hear distortion and clipping, you'll appreciate slightly louder music with a more powerful system.

Get a middle of the road headunit, anything with 3 sets of pre-outs should do the job, stick with one of the big name brands, Alpine, Clarion, Eclipse, Pioneer or Kenwood are all good bets. I've had a couple of Alpine decks and I like them alright, the controls are a little tought to understand at first but are simpler to operate than others once you get used to them.

Speakers are like bike tires, there are lots of them out there and no one is best for everything, but might be superior in one area. I don't really have any reccomendations other than to see if you can listen to a pair of speakers playing the kind of music you like before buying. I've got Boston Acoustic S60 component speakers and they sound really good, I paid about $130 for the pair on ebay in the rear I have some Infinity speakers and I'm less impressed with them, they have a much brighter sound that I don't really care for, I bought them because I wanted to get them from crutchfield to make up the difference I needed for free shipping, the only other speakers they had that would fit my vehicle were Alpines and I didn't much care for the sound of Alpine speakers. MB Quart and Memphis Audio are getting really good reviews right now and but aren't as easy to find as Pioneer, Alpine or Kenwood.

Amps are a dime a dozen, Alpine gets good reveiws for low end amps, a lot of amps get poor reviews. Stay away from any Sony car audio and DUB branded products, they get consistantly craptacular reviews across the board. I'd get at least 40W RMS to the front channels and 100W or more to the sub. I prefer having lots of power to the rear speakers too, but you can decide what you want on your own.

Finally don't go and buy a sub until you get the main speakers hooked up. I feel like my system gives me plenty of bass without a sub, adding an amp and nicer door speakers makes a big difference.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

thanks.
i went today earlier to a car-audio store.
my head unit is a pioneer 2850mp. it does have 4 outs, BUT he said he is positive they dont have rca outlets and he recommended me to upgrade that first. he said i could buy the 4850mp (220 bucks i think). the difference isnt obvious to me, besides the outlets being rca or not.

i dont know how much difference can a head unit make, so if you guys can say something about that (i dont know if he was honest, or doing his sales).
for wiring, he said $45 will make it. he did recommend me those speakers kornphlake mentions. 6in boston s60 for the front doors. he said thats the first upgrade i should make. he quoted me $160 installed (dirt cheap comparing to kornphlake´s considering they are in stock in peru and include installation). i guess thats where am gonna probably start.
whats the threshold on those? will they fry or distort much once i crank up the volume a litte?
should i change my head unit?
for amplifiers he recommended me a 100w*4 JVC, $280 installed. but i saw yesterday some sony xplod 4060gtx (60w*4)for $150 at the grocery store. is the difference worth the price?
the, there was a sub, a 12w1 JL for $190 installed, included the box and everything. i´ll think i´ll leave that for later after the speakers.

oh yeah, and in this store, anything i buy comes with free installation. so prices include that.
i´ll visit a couple more audio stores later today and post more findings.

 

[Kornphlake]

RCA outlets are actually a pretty big deal, but not really necessary. Most newer amps have line level inputs so all you have to do is run the wire from your headunit to the amp then from the amp to your speakers. If you have RCA pre-outs then you can keep your factory wiring harness intact and just run the RCAs to the amp, it's cleaner and makes things a little eaiser should you ever sell the car and want to keep your stereo. Another advantage to RCA pre-outs is they leave you with the option of running a pair of speakers off of the head unit like Toshi does. There is some technical merit to running RCA cables as well but I don't understand it very well, less noise, cleaner sound, more efficient delivery of power, etc.

I don't think you can blow any speakers with the power put out by any head unit, most door speakers are rated for 45W RMS or better, usually they can handle 200W or more peak power, that's several times what a head unit will put out. I believe the S60 speakers are rated at about 40W RMS, that JVC amp says it's a 100W amp, but is that RMS or Peak power? Generally you just want to look at the RMS and keep the amp at or below what the speakers are rated for.

The same would go for subs, just look at the RMS power but realize that alot of manufacturers overstate the power output of their amps and understate the power handling of speakers when you are looking at subs and amps to power them. An honest 200W RMS should be more than enough for a 10" or 12" sub, bigger speakers require more power.

Another bit of trickery is the impedance of the speakers, most 4 channel amps are rated for 8 ohm speakers but many can push 4 ohm speakers. Rememebering that P=V^2/R if the resistance is reduced the power will increase assuming that voltage is held constant. In reality you don't get double the power by hooking up 2 speakers in parallel, but you can get close to it. The down side is ohm's law hurts you too, V=IR, so when you decrease the resistance you have to increase the current to maintain a steady voltage, the speakers don't really care as long as they aren't getting more power than they are rated for, but more current means more heat, too much heat and you'll cook the amplifier.

If you get a 4 channel amp usually you can bridge certain channels. For example if you have a 30W RMS X 4 amp, you can bridge the pairs of channels and get 40W RMS X 2. Most 4 channel amps are bridgeable for 4, 3 or 2 channels so you can run 1 pair of speakers, one pair and a small sub or 2 pairs of speakers. Toshi uses the 3 channel setup, the two front channels are getting something like 50W RMS and the sub is getting like 80W RMS. That's a good way to go, amps take up a lot of space, more powerful amps take up even more space, I don't think I could fit more than one amp in my vehicle without sacrificing a lot of cargo space.

Are you confused yet? Well hold on... wiring is pretty cheap and installation is pretty basic, but you do need to pay attention to what the installers are doing. Generally you want to keep signal wires away from the power and ground wires to the amp or else you'll hear static, keep signal wires away from other power sources like your blinker relay or wiper motor circuit or you might pick up noise from those too. Good installers will run the power wire down one side of the car and the signal wires down the opposite side. It's equally important to have a good low resistance ground, make sure the installer grounds the amp directly to the frame or unibody of the vehicle and make sure that any paint is scraped away from the ground lug and any grease removed. Your car, especially the alternator is a huge source of EMI, you want to minimize ground loops to ensure that noise doesn't make it to your speakers. Free installation is only a bargain if the installers know what they are doing.

 

[Kornphlake]

One more thing.

For amps what you really want to look for is a Class D rating. I'm not sure what that means, or if there is a Class C or Class E, but the good car audio amps are all Class D, it has something to do with the efficiency of the amp. I know all Alpine amps are Class D amps and they rate their amps RMS power pretty close to what it actually is.