[saruti]

hey guys
coming back from morzine with my wheels twisted, and watching the wheels of the new Easton carbon fiber, made ​​me think that maybe Carbon rims are good long-term solution.
Is Carbon rims hold years?
Do they stay upright assuming that only the spokes are skewed?
Is the replacement of the spokes once in a while will make the wheels like new again?
the rims will remain straight forever?

thanks

 

[frango]

I don't recall where, but I've heard that Syndicate riders replace Enve rims every three events.
You have to realize that some damages you do the aluminum rims might destroy carbon rims entirely.
I've came back from Morzine with 3-4 dents/flats on rear rim. But, just 2 of the leaded to flat tire. I like to ride low pressure (1-1,2 BAR) coz I am light.
I'd love to try CF rims, but I can't afford Enve. Price of Havocs is still unknown, but taking into consideration fact, that aluminum version costs 1000$...

 

[saruti]

I run my tires with hige pressure
32 rear and 26 front (psi)
so usually I don't get dents, just ~~~~
is there any good carbon 32 holes rims ? (not EASTON..)

 

[epic]

Considering the rate at which World Cup riders are crunching aluminum rims vs. the rate at which I kill my own rims, I think that the current carbon rims are approaching "lifetime" status. I'm pretty sure I'll be running carbon rims soon, just not sure which ones. I've kinda been waiting to see what Mavic will do, but it looks like there are some really good rims out there now.

 

[saruti]

epic
please point me to carbon rims out there

 

[Adrnln Jnke]

you want wheels that will last FOREVER!!!! Try TAG wheels. those things are bomb proof

 

[saruti]

TAG have a problem withe the contact between the wheels and the hubs....

 

[djjohnr]

epic
please point me to carbon rims out there

Enve and DT Swiss both sell rims alone, no DH publicly though, just AM. If they last I may buy some eventually. I figure in a few seasons they'll have any QC issues worked out and hopefully competition brings the price down. Right now you're looking at $800 a rim.

 

[OGRipper]

I've been running the Edge (now Enve) All Mountain rims on my trail bikes for the last two years and they have been perfect for the stuff I ride around the bay area and in the sierras. I haven't had to true them since I built them, let alone replace a rim, and they are noticeably stiffer than aluminum too. I have not tried them on my DH bike. It is true that they won't dent like aluminum, but the common theory is that an impact that breaks a carbon rim will pretty much always destroy an aluminum rim.

As for whether they are "forever", with aluminum I usually need to replace at least my rear rim every season and I don't see having to replace my carbon rims any time soon. Of course, I need 5 or 6 more years out of them to break even on the cost vs. aluminum.

 

[frango]

And what about the impact that dents aluminum rim (i.e. DT or Mavic EN321)? Will/would it destroy CF rim?
I buy my rims at about 20$ and replace it every season. So for one ENVE rim I would have 120 Raiders

 

[Uncle Cliffy]

Still product testing.

 

[demo 9]

Can carbon even bend? I might sound like an idiot but i am under the assumption it has the bending qualities of glass

 

[frango]

Still product testing.

What was that?

Can carbon even bend?

Well, not maybe bend, but hit repeatedly will lose it's rigidity and star to fall apart. It also depends on the ingredients of the final product - resins, kevlar, carbon, glass fibers used.

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

Well... I don't see rims as perfect application for CF.

Anywhere where blunt hits are to be expected, CF should be avoided. CF is fragile - just like e.g. diamonds. Diamond is the best material where durability is sought. But if the application requires to endure getting hit by a hammer, then look somewhere else.

 

[thom9719]

Still product testing.

I don't think you can fault a rim for failing under Cam Cole.

-KT

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

@thom9719: what is evident from that picture is one CF property I really have issue with. And that is it's tendency to fail catastrophically, often without a warning.

 

[iRider]

 

[frango]

StabprimoMonkee, what kind of warning do you expect from properly build for certain purpose CF rims during i.e. overrotated 360 landing or casing a jump in rock garden?

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

@frango: I'm just saying that different materials have vastly different failure modes. Steel bends before shearing or breaking off. Aluminum is more inclined to breakage, but in my experience still develops visible cracks or bends a bit (a lot of that depends on the variety used). While CF does not do anything of the sorts - it tends to just explode all of a sudden.

Yes I have seen exploded ALU rims, but that is not its primary mode of failure.

I'm not against CF - I do ride CF frame (for XC and road), I have ridden a CF DH bike. I will ride a CF frame for DH in the future. I would love to ride CF handlebars, but I am still not completely convinced of their safety. I'd also love to ride CF rims, but even if price became more competitive - I'd still rather ride them on road and for AM/XC, for DH I'd just have to let others be test bunnies for a while. Thats all.

 

[HardtailHack]

I have nothing to add about rims but I'm sick of people saying steel just sorta bends and doesn't fail catasrophically. Punch snapped BMX frame into Google and you find heaps that go bang, I know it's usually near a weld but that is normally where an alloy frame would crack.
I have cracked carbon bars and they didn't let go suddenly and I will run carbon bars again when they are made in a shape I like.

 

[epic]

Still product testing.

Fort Bill? Nobody ever breaks aluminum rims up there.

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

@HardtailHack: This is silly, how about googling broken carbon frames?

This doesn't prove anything. But if it did - those BMX failures look a lot better to me than those carbon frames.

 

[frango]

Posting pics of broken steel or CF frames proves just nothing, coz we don't know anything about circumstances of failure.
I am pretty sure CF rim of the same weight as aluminum would be much stronger. Just like DH frames seem to be.

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

@frango: That cannot be denied. CF frames can be a lot lighter and stronger, that is a proven fact for quite a long now. The problem with DH application is abundance of sharp edges everywhere.

Frames, handlebars and seatposts have justified their existence. Now DH rims have to do the same. Jury is still out. I don't doubt that they will figure it out. I am just not sure that they have done it yet.

 

[marshalolson]

if you ride hard, all rims die. nature of the beast.

the question is: do you want a <$100 rim to die or a $800 rim to die.

is the $700 incremental cost of a stiffer wheel and 100g lighter worth it to you.

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

@marshalolson: Thats just a question of can you afford it. I have seen roadies go through three sets of 1000&#8364; monocoque handlebars in a season without even a twitch.

What we are discussing here is whether CF rims are there yet for average Joe - as handlebars and frames have been for a while.

 

[marshalolson]

carbon bars and posts are ~$50 more than the equivalent aluminum posts, and you can generally buy lighter posts for less money with aluminum. of course you have to factor in the cost. most companies will be far more willing to offer warranty support on an $800 rim... though i would not plan on it unless there is something plainly in writing (see: easton)

the carbon rims are certainly strong enough for johnny weekend rider to ride on their 5" trail bike. is that what you are asking?

carbon bars are, in general, "not there" for DH, why would anyone think a carbon rim is?

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

@marshalolson: That is a minimal price difference for something ALU cannot give you - superior ride quality. Carbon just feels so much better in applications I have tested (frames, handlebars, seatposts) and there is only one way to get that feel - by buying carbon, so I feel that price difference for those parts is justified by something tangible.

Regarding carbon bars - I agree with you, but some people feel very differently (norbar where art thou?) and swear by them exclusively.

 

[marshalolson]

I feel that price difference for those parts is justified by something tangible.

yeah man, i hear that. the enve and dt carbon rims offer better exceleration due to weight and steer better due to stiffness. for sure. i don't think anyone disagrees with that. from there, the only hang-up is the price.

if you hit a rock hard enough to flat spot an aluminum rim, you will probably crack the carbon rim. both products are toast. the carbon rims of course get pictures posted on the internet and trash talked about how they are a rip off. nobody posts pictures of a flat spotted aluminum rim that needed to be replaced. they say: crap. i tagged that rock way hard. now i need a new rim.

it is what it is.

 

[norbar]

if you hit a rock hard enough to flat spot an aluminum rim, you will probably crack the carbon rim.

it is what it is.

Not true since aluminium dents easier than carbon cracks(also what alumium rim? dt 6.1 or 823? big differance). You suggest that if you manage to damage an aluminium product you need the same (or similar) force to damage a carbon one? Different material, different properties. Also denting an aluminium rim is easier than cracking one and since you partialy agree that carbon can be made stronger why do you say you will crack a carbon rim?
Im sceptical about carbon rims but not really due to durability but due to the price. Im pretty sure it will be possible (or even is) to make very durable dh carbon rims but rims tend to get damaged. I dont want to damage 1000$


btw. Im not really that much of a beliver in carbon as the rants stabmonkee points to made me to be. I might have gotten a bit carried away but I just belive in Easton. If they will be willing to backup their carbon dh wheels with their 2 wheel warranty (the no questions asked one) I belive them. Their products in and out of cycling have been greatly underapreciated and I cant remember the last time they made a product that lacked durability.

 

[OGRipper]

if you hit a rock hard enough to flat spot an aluminum rim, you will probably crack the carbon rim. both products are toast.

This is not my experience. My Enve AM rims have survived dozens of hits hard enough to dent (or crack) an aluminum rim with no ill effects. And based on my experience I feel pretty confident saying that an impact that would break one of my carbon rims would destroy a comparable aluminum rim.

The cost issue is very real, but given that we are still in the early stages of carbon rim development for mountain bikes, I'm very optimistic about their potential.

The current products are very good IMO. And I expect that they will only get better, and the cost will come down.

 

[marshalolson]

Not true since aluminium dents easier than carbon cracks(also what alumium rim? dt 6.1 or 823? big differance). You suggest that if you manage to damage an aluminium product you need the same (or similar) force to damage a carbon one.

my point was in reference to the several cracked carbon rims and destroyed wheels floating around in this thread and all over the internet. those would have likely, in my opinion, also destroyed an aluminum rim (see cam cole a few posts up).

that is my point. not the other way, every time you put a little ding in a rim's sidewall, it will crack a carbon rim. why point was: if you totally and completely destroy and wheel, it would likely do it on any rim, be it carbon, aluminum, steel or well... i dunno. magnesium.

 

[norbar]

why point was: if you totally and completely destroy and wheel, it would likely do it on any rim, be it carbon, aluminum, steel or well... i dunno. magnesium.

Yes but that is not an argument against carbon but rather wheels in general. You cant suggest we drop these

 

[marshalolson]

ha!

even dropping 1 would be bad news

i am certainly not arguing against carbon wheels. i am arguing that spending $800-1000 per rim is silly talk on a part that is inherently disposable. we are in the DH forum still, correct, and talking about carbon rims on dh bikes, correct?

if i had a spare $1.2k i'd stick some dt ec400's on my trail bike in a second. but... umm.... yeah.

its unrealistic to expect a 400g carbon rim to hold up to the same abuse as a 720g 823. i am willing to bet these carbon rims will hold up better than an ex500 or flow rim, however. but you still have to pay 10x to replace each rim. it is what it is.

 

[wood booger]

ha!

even dropping 1 would be bad news

i am certainly not arguing against carbon wheels. i am arguing that spending $800-1000 per rim is silly talk on a part that is inherently disposable. we are in the DH forum still, correct, and talking about carbon rims on dh bikes, correct?

if i had a spare $1.2k i'd stick some dt ec400's on my trail bike in a second. but... umm.... yeah.

its unrealistic to expect a 400g carbon rim to hold up to the same abuse as a 720g 823. i am willing to bet these carbon rims will hold up better than an ex500 or flow rim, however. but you still have to pay 10x to replace each rim. it is what it is.

Well put sir.

A carbon rim can take a beating for sure (and usually brush off hits that would dent the crap out of an alloy one), but it is a rim at the end of the day and it will get destroyed.

Carbon frames are not 10X the cost of alloy ones, so I assume the rims will follow suit. They should be much more prevalent when the cost is only 40-50% more than an alloy rim. But it is never going to be a rim to last a DH lifetime.

Carbon rims are light, and stiff, and strong and basically the *hit; just waaaaaay over priced.

 

[norbar]

ha!

even dropping 1 would be bad news

i am certainly not arguing against carbon wheels. i am arguing that spending $800-1000 per rim is silly talk on a part that is inherently disposable. we are in the DH forum still, correct, and talking about carbon rims on dh bikes, correct?

if i had a spare $1.2k i'd stick some dt ec400's on my trail bike in a second. but... umm.... yeah.

its unrealistic to expect a 400g carbon rim to hold up to the same abuse as a 720g 823. i am willing to bet these carbon rims will hold up better than an ex500 or flow rim, however. but you still have to pay 10x to replace each rim. it is what it is.

I agree with ou on the price part. Im not for that but if you sleep on cash and some people do a 1k$/rim is what a 90$ per rim is for us.
Also dont make assuptions about weight. I will repeat myself - if easton belives in themselves (they dont for now) I will belive in them.
Also drop the heavy new 823 and look for an old one. They were 590g Ive bought 2 of them for 60$ and they hold up great even with dt revolution spokes (yes they are as stiff as the new ones, just a bit less durable). You just need a very good wheelbuilder (makes a huge difference with light spokes)

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

@norbar... **** DT Revolution, use Sapim CX-Ray.

 

[HardtailHack]

@HardtailHack: This is silly, how about googling broken carbon frames?

This doesn't prove anything. But if it did - those BMX failures look a lot better to me than those carbon frames.

But I didn't say something retarded about the magic properties of steel and it's ability to bend before snapping, people on forums like this give stupid people the opinion that steel is heavy and won't snap.

I have nothing to add about the rims as I am not an engineer or anything close so I choose not to make any comments about the longevity of something I have no idea about.

Also, I'm a fat prick so a carbon rim would be wasted on me and anything I ride, I can't wait to see fellow fat pricks rocking carbon rims and talking about how stiff they are and how much faster they are out of corners.

Have Ti DH rims ever been used?

 

[norbar]

@norbar... **** DT Revolution, use Sapim CX-Ray.

If you are willing to transfer me the price differance Id be more than happy to do that

 

[StabprimoMonkee]

@norbar: I view my CX- rays as an investment. Never used Revolutions, however I read/heard that due to stretching, wheels need to be trued often. With my CX-Rays this has never been the case. They have maintained tension for 3 years if you can believe it, also I exploded rear rim, switched the spokes (which were completely ok) to a new rim and keep on rocking. So if there ever was a spoke worth its money that has to be it. Btw I weigh 220#.

@HardtailHack: Who was saying anything about anything magical? I said that steel tends to give warnings before breaking - A lot more than ALU or CF. If you overload something massively it will certainly break. Btw. Ti is so hard to shape and work with, that those rims would cost 10x the price of CF ones.