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Carbon V10 - vertical play in rear end

knax

knax

Chimp
Nov 1, 2004
37
8
germany
My new carbon V10 appears to have some vertical play in the rear end. Side-to-side everything is fine, but when liftting the bike with the saddle, the rear end will move / extend for a few mm before the rear tire lifts from the floor. This movement is not the shock extending from sag position. I could also locate no play in the shock bushings and checked all the bolts - everything is tight :confused:
Actually the rear end does not feel loose, it is more like some sort of flex. When pulling at the saddle while holding the rear wheel, I can further extend the rear end, there is no hard stop when the shock is fully extended like I`m used from my other non-vpp bikes. When doing this, I see no movement in the shock or lower link, but the upper link is moving.
Any thoughts on this?
 
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staike

Monkey
May 19, 2011
247
0
Norway
Check for cracks. Put your hand around all bearings and try to feel any play. If you can't feel anything, dissasemble the frame and check all bearings and replace the worn ones. Or just replace all of them while you're at it. Before you do all that you could always just take out the rear shock and see that the DU bushings are fine and still have the orange teflon coating intact.
 
davec113

davec113

Monkey
May 24, 2009
419
0
I agree w staike, put you hand around the pivots and figure out exactly where the free play is, like how you check to see if your headset is loose. It might help to take the rear shock off, hard to say... sounds like a bearing or pivot bolt is bad. My 1st thought was the shock is broken, so be sure to double check to make sure it's not the shock, or where the shock is mounted to the bike.
 
dhr-racer

dhr-racer

Monkey
Jan 24, 2007
410
0
A, A
yes, before you freak yourself out and check every inch of the linkage, check your du bushings in the shock eyelets. when i first got into downhill i had this issue and was freaking out for weeks, taking the whole bike apart every few days. I even bought a torque wrench. then found out i just had a bad du bushing
 
knax

knax

Chimp
Nov 1, 2004
37
8
germany
The frame is brand new, 2 days of riding, so this should be no wear. Don`t know if the play/flex was present from the start, I just realized this. Could this be natural flex in the carbon upper link? I think I will try and put the shock in the 8.5" position to see if it feels the same or if it is related to the positioning of the links. I think I read something about some older V10s hyper-extending with the upper link moving behind the seatpost, could be somehow related (i.e. further movement of the rear end/upper link at full extension of the shock)
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
86,001
24,549
media blackout
i recall seeing a thread where someone's upper link flipped out from the normal orientation from a hard top out. can't remember the solution, i recall it being something simple. shoot SC an email.
 
O

Owennn

Monkey
Mar 10, 2009
128
1
I recall someone receiving & riding a frame with the top link in backwards.

Could it be from the rear hub?
 
T

TheMontashu

Pourly Tatteued Jeu
Mar 15, 2004
5,549
0
I'm homeless
jonKranked said:
i recall seeing a thread where someone's upper link flipped out from the normal orientation from a hard top out. can't remember the solution, i recall it being something simple. shoot SC an email.
Click to expand...
The solution for that guy was to not have his link put on the correct direction, that was user error
 
knax

knax

Chimp
Nov 1, 2004
37
8
germany
Back from the garage, flipping the chip to 8.5" didn`t change anything. Was not able to detect any slop in the DU bushes as well. The movement appears to come from the upper link, the bearings seem to be fine though.
Found a picture of a hyper-extended V10 -> http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/4108291/
If you look at the link and the rear swingarm at the V10, they are approx. perpendicular at full extension. So if you pull at the swing arm, there will be a quite signifficant force acting at the upper link. So the small movement I see might be normal and caused by flex in the upper link area :confused:
However, none of my Horst link/singe pivot/ ABP bikes had similar issues
Did any V10 owners notice the same flex in the rear end?
 
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dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
Have you tried smashing it with a hammer at a 30 degree angle really hard?

Not sure if it will fix the problem, but it made me feel better when my Xbox died.
 
knax

knax

Chimp
Nov 1, 2004
37
8
germany
klunky said:
I take it you cant return it to where you purchased it? I would if it was local the shop can probably sort it.
Click to expand...
The frame was purchased in the US, so taking it back to the shop is no option. Still hoping it might be normal. However, I do think it looks sort of strange.
 
descente

descente

Monkey
Jul 30, 2010
430
0
Sandy Eggo
mine does it a little bit with the vivid air. a friend of mine has one with the RC4 and it doesn't do it. i wouldn't really describe it as play so much as it just has crazy small bump sensitivity. we have a demo with a CCDB in my shop that feels very similar, you can tap the seat with 1 finger and the suspension reacts. which shock do you have?

for what its worth, when i had my rear shock out i checked to see what that over rotating of the links would look like. the swing arm bottomed on the chain guide before it even got close to doing that weird rotating thing.
 
Huck Banzai

Huck Banzai

Turbo Monkey
May 8, 2005
2,523
23
Transitory
Concerned because your frame/shock doesnt top out?

There is no flex anywhere in the V10c that cant be found 2x moreso on any other frame. It is ridiculously plush, active, responsive, and fantactically well designed, if you're finding flaws, you're imagining them.

Get over it, ride and win, or go get a clunky rattling M9 and worry about misdesigned links and failed tolerances ( MADE IN USA, HUZZAH! )
 
S

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,991
45
Whistler
I suspect it's your seat tower that's flexing slightly and allowing the top link to rotate back another mm or so. When the shock is topped out, the top link is very close to being able to flick out too far backwards causing hyperextension (can be caused by hitting the back wheel downwards hard enough, like if you were to crash and the top of the back wheel smacked a tree or something). The swingarm has a great deal of leverage over the seat tower via that link at topout, and a very small amount of flex in the seat tower will translate to a noticeable amount at the axle.

If there is no play in your pivots anywhere, this is almost certainly the cause. It isn't necessarily something to be concerned about however - as long as the suspension isn't able to hyperextend.
 
knax

knax

Chimp
Nov 1, 2004
37
8
germany
TKCastle said:
DU ovalized bushings are really hard to detect on the frame. Pull the shock and slightly wiggle the sleeve that passes thru the shock eye. Guaranteed you feel the slop.

Wiggle the slop FTW!
Click to expand...
With the shock (Fox RC4, btw) installed on the frame I couldn`t detect any slop in the DU bushings. Admittedly, it is a bit difficult to be 100% sure about this with the shock installed. Will take the shock from the frame and if I can feel any slop in the shock bushings with the shock removed from the frame. But actually I would not expect that this is the case, as the frame is new
However, just like jasonw111, descente and Steve M were posting, some vertical play in the rear end might as well be normal/inherent in the VPP system. The slightest flex/movement in the upper link/seat tower region will translate into noticeable movement of the rear end.
I contacted SC concerning this issue, we will see what they have to say about this...
 
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Owennn

Monkey
Mar 10, 2009
128
1
jasonw111 said:
that movement is normal, thats what SC says, happened on all the v10s ive built, which is 4 or 5
Click to expand...
Noticeable play in bearings & linkages is normal? Since when? If the play is noticeable to a user it will accelerate wear. That just sounds like a lazy answer on SC's behalf if it is true.

The first v10 (2001 or so model) had a bolt on the top link to stop this extension, the picture below is poor but you get the idea:

STA_0092.jpg

Linkage is keyed to match the bolt on top out.
 

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nowlan

Monkey
Jul 30, 2008
496
2
The best way to check to see if its a DU bushing is change it with a new one, and then see if the play is still there. Either way you own a VPP bike and you would have had to change it in a few more rides anyway.
 
Jm_

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,998
9,659
AK
Owennn said:
Noticeable play in bearings & linkages is normal? Since when? If the play is noticeable to a user it will accelerate wear. That just sounds like a lazy answer on SC's behalf if it is true.

The first v10 (2001 or so model) had a bolt on the top link to stop this extension, the picture below is poor but you get the idea:

View attachment 109796

Linkage is keyed to match the bolt on top out.
Click to expand...
Any company that gives you this line is giving you BS. Play eventually causes more play and ovalization, and eventually it's a no-return road and nothing will ever work right and it will get a ton of slop and waste bushings and other hardware (axles, etc) in no time. I have a theory that when this happens, more than a few companys do not stand behidn their product for their poor QC or design. It's easy to replace a bearing or linkage, but when the entire frame might be a "total loss" it's very hard for them to take this kind of financial hit, they just don't justify "new frame" for these types of flaws. It's not always unfixable, but in many cases these types of play issues will only get worse.
 
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nowlan

Monkey
Jul 30, 2008
496
2
IH8Rice said:
totally. those vpp bikes are pos's
Click to expand...
Lol, I didn't say that. They just seem to require a bit more maintenance to keep them running perfect in my experience. If you own a VPP DH bike, having a few extra DU bushings in your tool box isnt a bad idea. Easy as hell to swap out on your own as well.
 
IH8Rice

IH8Rice

I'm Mr. Negative! I Fail!
Aug 2, 2008
24,524
494
Im over here now
nowlan said:
Lol, I didn't say that. They just seem to require a bit more maintenance to keep them running perfect in my experience. If you own a VPP DH bike, having a few extra DU bushings in your tool box isnt a bad idea. Easy as hell to swap out on your own as well.
Click to expand...
ive owned 3 VPP DH and FR bikes over 9+ years and havent had a issue with a DU bushing going bad.
 
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nowlan

Monkey
Jul 30, 2008
496
2
So have I, an older V 10, a socom, an M6 and a Tracer. I replaced the DU bushings twice a season in each of them. The M6 chews through them more then the others it seems.
 
knax

knax

Chimp
Nov 1, 2004
37
8
germany
Santa Cruz have responed to my email, they are saying this was perfectly normal. It is a side effect of the high leverage ratio at top-out and the orientation of the links, which seems to make sense to me :)
 
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