CCDB service manual anybody ?
- Thread starter cheytac
- Start date
I have the full service manual (PDF Format).
However, servicing the shock requires a number of specific tools, and I think you're wasting your time unless you're planning on investing in these tools. To give you an idea, you need a special tools to remove the seal head, to remove the inner tube of the shock, to pressurize the shock, etc etc. You will also need to obtain service parts if the shock is leaking and these may not be sold to end users.
Personally I'd advise getting Cane Creek to do it for you.
However, servicing the shock requires a number of specific tools, and I think you're wasting your time unless you're planning on investing in these tools. To give you an idea, you need a special tools to remove the seal head, to remove the inner tube of the shock, to pressurize the shock, etc etc. You will also need to obtain service parts if the shock is leaking and these may not be sold to end users.
Personally I'd advise getting Cane Creek to do it for you.
Hi Udi, I guess you need non usual tools, but I have serviced all my forks, shocks for ages, including modifying spv shim stacks and so on, despite oil levels and all these issues, and I am sure I could afford it, despite I would need some diy tool, but fortunately I have access to mill and lathes, so I think it wont be any problem.
I have emailed you the manual. If anyone else wants it, just PM me your email.
On top of that, it's useful to know the stock oil is Ohlins Shock Absorber Fluid #309. It has a viscosity of 13.70cSt@40. The closest off the shelf oil you can buy to this will be Silkolene Pro RSF 2.5wt (13.60cSt and an incredibly high VI of 464, which is perfect). I would not use anything other than those two products personally.
Stock pressure is 6-7 bar (87-101psi). I'd remove the reservoir endcap first (after depressurising and without compressing the shock at all) so you can measure the stock IFP depth before you start.
Hope that helps
Udi
On top of that, it's useful to know the stock oil is Ohlins Shock Absorber Fluid #309. It has a viscosity of 13.70cSt@40. The closest off the shelf oil you can buy to this will be Silkolene Pro RSF 2.5wt (13.60cSt and an incredibly high VI of 464, which is perfect). I would not use anything other than those two products personally.
Stock pressure is 6-7 bar (87-101psi). I'd remove the reservoir endcap first (after depressurising and without compressing the shock at all) so you can measure the stock IFP depth before you start.
Hope that helps
Udi
FYI, service on CCDB's is now authorized and handled by MTB Suspension Experts right down the road from the Cane Creek factory. Just found this out yesterday from the horses mouth.
So lead times on that stuff should be even better now. The owner Kevin is an awesome guy and knows his stuff.
Just ship it to him and be done with it. And if he works on it, you maintain your warranty.
He handles warranty for most all manufacturers.
www.mtbsuspensionexperts.com
So lead times on that stuff should be even better now. The owner Kevin is an awesome guy and knows his stuff.
Just ship it to him and be done with it. And if he works on it, you maintain your warranty.
He handles warranty for most all manufacturers.
www.mtbsuspensionexperts.com
I was under the impression that a moto shop that does Ohlins shock servicing could service a CCDB, or am I making stuff up?
FYI, service on CCDB's is now authorized and handled by MTB Suspension Experts right down the road from the Cane Creek factory. Just found this out yesterday from the horses mouth.
So lead times on that stuff should be even better now. The owner Kevin is an awesome guy and knows his stuff.
Just ship it to him and be done with it. And if he works on it, you maintain your warranty.
He handles warranty for most all manufacturers.
www.mtbsuspensionexperts.com
Thank you so much for the info Bizutch!
The thing is I live in Madrid, Spain, and the nearest CCDB service center is Tf-Tuned in UK. TF-Tuned has very good prices for selling, but maintenance is an abuse, 200 for reviewing oil levels, gas pressure and o rings, plus costs of shipping Warranty is two years in Europe, so my first service will probably be out of warranty period, and I think it is worth to get the tools and trying to service the shock by myself.
The only difference compared with other brands (fox, manitou, marzo, etc) is the proprietary Ohlins tools, the rest is exactly the same.
Fyi you can get all tools and replacementes for servicing for about 250$ at
http://motorsportsspares.com/fsae.html But most of replacements (orings, oil and so on) are no needed to be got from this shop, so probably the price could be 150$ or 200$, clearly worth it.
For these reasons I think it is a good deal to service the CCDB by yourself if you are used to servicing your hardware, and have the appropriate tools, and of course the pdf that gently Udi sent me
I can not understand the Ohlins secrecy about servicing the CCDB. I asked them for the service manual a few times by email, and no response till now. And for instance, FOX provides you all the info but clearly says at the tech center "At your own risk" if you try to repair or service your fork or shock by your self.
Customer satisfaction is the first thing above all, and as a customer, I think when you buy something, you are entitled to get all the information about the item, including the internals of it.
CCDB shock behavior and performance are amazing, but I had no idea about these issues with servicing, and for that, I will never buy anything from this brand again. In my humble opinion as a client this is not acceptable.
In the end, we are talking about a Mtb shock, not a Space Shuttle....
Thank you all for so interesting information !! If I do the service by myself, this forum shall be the first one to see the pics.
See you on the trail!
*Sorry if my English expression is not ok
Don't know where you have that from, but their website says 99 GBP (~112 EUR at the moment) for a full service.
Service at Stendec in UK is 90 GBP.
I think you're being a little harsh, in my opinion CC have excellent customer service, including sending me a brand new shock to get me out of trouble - before I even sent the old one back (and I'm not in the US).
Also, Fox don't actually provide any service manuals for their rear shocks (in terms of servicing the actual damper) to the general public - and it's the same for most brands.
I don't currently own one, but on the basis of support would not hesitate to buy one again.
There are a lot of shortcomings of the CCDB, but the manufacturers support of their product is not one of them.
rock shox is the only one of the big brands that gives you service manuals for their products as far as i'm informed, fox, marzocchi and manitou don't...Thank you so much for the info Bizutch!
The thing is I live in Madrid, Spain, and the nearest CCDB service center is Tf-Tuned in UK. TF-Tuned has very good prices for selling, but maintenance is an abuse, 200 for reviewing oil levels, gas pressure and o rings, plus costs of shipping Warranty is two years in Europe, so my first service will probably be out of warranty period, and I think it is worth to get the tools and trying to service the shock by myself.
The only difference compared with other brands (fox, manitou, marzo, etc) is the proprietary Ohlins tools, the rest is exactly the same.
Fyi you can get all tools and replacementes for servicing for about 250$ at
http://motorsportsspares.com/fsae.html But most of replacements (orings, oil and so on) are no needed to be got from this shop, so probably the price could be 150$ or 200$, clearly worth it.
For these reasons I think it is a good deal to service the CCDB by yourself if you are used to servicing your hardware, and have the appropriate tools, and of course the pdf that gently Udi sent me
I can not understand the Ohlins secrecy about servicing the CCDB. I asked them for the service manual a few times by email, and no response till now. And for instance, FOX provides you all the info but clearly says at the tech center "At your own risk" if you try to repair or service your fork or shock by your self.
Customer satisfaction is the first thing above all, and as a customer, I think when you buy something, you are entitled to get all the information about the item, including the internals of it.
CCDB shock behavior and performance are amazing, but I had no idea about these issues with servicing, and for that, I will never buy anything from this brand again. In my humble opinion as a client this is not acceptable.
In the end, we are talking about a Mtb shock, not a Space Shuttle....
Thank you all for so interesting information !! If I do the service by myself, this forum shall be the first one to see the pics.
See you on the trail!
*Sorry if my English expression is not ok
Would you care to elaborate? The only one I can think of is price.
Sethimus, Manitou at least used to make their service manuals available. Dunno if they still do.
fox has very good service walkthroughs... albeit on their website.
they have a manual for servicing their shocks? where? or do you mean the part where it says the fluid should be changed every other 100h by a fox service center?
Reliability/durability issues, performance issues on certain frames/leverages.
As I said, they're always on top of warranty work.
Not only manuals, FOX even provide you detailed videos.Take a look on this database bellow, you can find all the information that you need about any FOX component or item
http://service.foxracingshox.com/consumers/FOXDisclaimerUserChoice.htm
Manitou also provides you all the information for servicing everyting
http://www.manitoumtb.com/index.php?page=support&c=service-guides
Sram has a channel on youtube for many things and servicing, besides its website with all the info in pdf format.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SRAMtech
In short and IMHO, in these times of globalization and info sharing, secrecy for customers is not a good deal as I see it, that's something tipical of the past, when internet did not exist and you did not have any tech info. But today, and specially when you buy the most expensive shock, they not only should provide a fully detailed service manual, but also some added value in form of video or pendrive with all the info and how to custom your shock by your self when you buy the shock. It is unacceptable that I have bought a shock of 600$ and I do not have, for instance, a table or similar with the appropiate settings for common DH bikes.
On the other hand, and at least in my case, information about servicing and internals is essential, as as soon as the warranty is out, I do not send any bike component to be serviced. Since if I have to substitute orings or oil or grease, I am not commanded to buy the originals from the brand, as you can get fully compatible with the same quality and at lower price at many shops.
Thanks for the info to everyone!
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I live in Thailand and buy CCDB from web in USA . I agree with you cheytac. Now I almost buy some component or part from website. Many my friend want to use CCDb but they worry about serviceable
. I many thank for PDF file from UDI . I hope cane creek will be changed.
. I many thank for PDF file from UDI . I hope cane creek will be changed.The Fox link you gave actually only has service info for forks and the air sleeves of rear shocks. It doesn't have any manuals or service videos for rear shock damper rebuilds. The Manitou link you gave doesn't have any service manuals for any rear shocks for the past 4 years (2007 was the latest one). Marzocchi don't give people much info even on the forks let alone the supposedly user-serviceable shocks. Elka, BOS, X-fusion, none of them give service manuals for rear shocks either. Why? Because rear shocks are much more sensitive to the quality of work performed on them than forks are. If the bleed isn't perfect, or parts are not torqued to spec using the right grades of loctite, things go wrong and parts can easily get damaged.
In actual fact, NOBODY but RS currently makes rear shock service manuals available to the public. Nobody complains to Ohlins that they don't publicly distribute the service manuals for their $2900 TTX40 (the shock your $600 CCDB was based on) either. I understand that you would like to be able to service your own stuff, but if that's the case, you could always try:
1. Contacting the manufacturer directly to ask for the manual
2. Pulling it apart yourself without a manual - if you're capable of servicing rear shocks to begin with, you should be able to work everything out without a manual by measuring IFP depths, gas charge forces etc, and reverse-engineering all the torqued fittings. There is nothing in there that you couldn't measure yourself with the proper rebuild tools and a bit of know-how except the oil viscosity.
If somebody doesn't know how to do all that sort of stuff, that's understandable, but it is an indicator that this person may not be as capable of properly servicing a shock as they thought they were, and that is the reason manufacturers don't publicly distribute service manuals - because if you get it wrong and your shock blows up on a Saturday morning in a busy bike park, everyone's going to see it and blame it on the shock manufacturer rather than the workmanship.
Obviously you're willing to take the risk of working on your own shock and that's cool, but a lot of manufacturers don't want to make it easy to put their reputation in the hands of people they can't be certain are capable of servicing the shock properly.
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Socket is absolutely correct, and the main reason is quoted below. I'm sure you guys are perfectly capable of rebuilding your shocks, but you have to understand that not everyone is - and when someone makes a mistake, it is very likely to give the company a bad name.
If you like the Cane Creek shock, please continue to support them, they have the best customer service that I've ever experienced and would happily recommend them to anyone.
If you like the Cane Creek shock, please continue to support them, they have the best customer service that I've ever experienced and would happily recommend them to anyone.
Obviously it is your opinion, not mine. And I am not saying that. Please, do not remix my opinions and change them for this final sentence. In addition you are saying things that are directly false.
Step by step.
1- I am just asking for simple information, no more. And it is no acceptable that the manufacturer do not provide that info. It is very simple. I have the full manual of cars, motorbikes, and so on, most of them directly from the manufacturer and other sources available, but I am not able to get the sevice manual for a bike shock.... surreal. All tools, oils and spare parts for CCDB maintenance are posible to get or substitute for similar for any advanced user used to servicing shocks from other brands. This will allow end users to service (and more important, tunning) the shock without having to pay a penny, but if you do not know how to do it, obviously, it shall be much more difficult.
2- Please... take a look on this simple example and do not say that fox do not explain how to service their shocks... besides there are tons of info at fox tech center, even for repairing your shock when it gets stuck down, and there are many places where to get info about how to service damper for shocks, including Manitou as well, do not say to people there are no service info because simply, that is not true... And do not say to people that they should be able to repair and servce shocks by their selfs without the manual please... that is what propably will result in a total disaster...
Some examples.
How to repair and rebuild a shock after stuck down. Fox official manual available at fox tech center.
http://service.foxracingshox.com/consumers/Content/Service/Rear_Shocks/605-00-071.pdf
Video from Fox about how to rebuild your air shock by yourself
3- And btw, I do not speak just for speaking... I have already said in my post (please read it) that I have asked several times for service manual to customer service mail from CC, no response till now, not even an email saying "sorry, we do not provide that info for these reasons..." That's secrecy and not even to reply is what I consider simply unacceptable for me. I am sorry if that's appropiate for you, It is not for me.
Have a nice day and enjoy paying 100$ for changing oil and o-rings for your shock instead doing by yourself because you do not have the info
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No need to get snide, I'm simply pointing out that your claims are not fully informed (eg your claim of 200 euros for a CCDB service from TFTuned being close to double what they actually charge). It's nothing personal, but you should be aware that no manufacturer wants to entrust servicing of their products to people they don't know, who they can't be sure will do the job properly.Obviously it is your opinion, not mine. And I am not saying that. Please, do not remix my opinions and change them for this final sentence. In addition you are saying things that are directly false.
Step by step.
1- I am just asking for simple information, no more. And it is no acceptable that the manufacturer do not provide that info. It is very simple. I have the full manual of cars, motorbikes, and so on, most of them directly from the manufacturer and other sources available, but I am not able to get the sevice manual for a bike shock.... surreal. All tools, oils and spare parts for CCDB maintenance are posible to get or substitute for similar for any advanced user used to servicing shocks from other brands. This will allow end users to service (and more important, tunning) the shock without having to pay a penny, but if you do not know how to do it, obviously, it shall be much more difficult.
As I said, it's not quite as simple as you make out. Even the CCDB service manual assumes quite a few things about your mechanical aptitude, that I do not believe are valid assumptions for the general population. It is for exactly this reason that Ohlins etc do not let the general public download service manuals from the website - it only takes one person to overestimate their own abilities that can cause a public debacle about a shock blowing apart at a critical time and injuring somebody. Whether or not you think you deserve a certain level of service instruction as a customer is not really relevant to that.
2- Please... take a look on this simple example and do not say that fox do not explain how to service their shocks... besides there are tons of info at fox tech center, even for repairing your shock when it gets stuck down, and there are many places where to get info about how to service damper for shocks, including Manitou as well, do not say to people there are no service info because simply, that is not true... And do not say to people that they should be able to repair and servce shocks by their selfs without the manual please... that is what propably will result in a total disaster...
I didn't say people SHOULD be able to - I said that it is possible to work out what to do without a manual, and that if you actually NEED the manual for anything other than confirming what you already believed (even torque specs you can get from a currently assembled item if you know what you're doing), then no manufacturer is going to want to risk their product's reputation on the quality of your workmanship. I realise this might sound insulting but that's simply how any business will see it. I'm not commenting on your personal mechanical abilities.
Some examples.
How to repair and rebuild a shock after stuck down. Fox official manual available at fox tech center.
http://service.foxracingshox.com/consumers/Content/Service/Rear_Shocks/605-00-071.pdf
Video from Fox about how to rebuild your air shock by yourself
As I said, Fox do not provide any manuals on how to service the DAMPER of ANY of their rear shocks. Air sleeves are an entirely different thing. Please do not put words into my mouth.
3- And btw, I do not speak just for speaking... I have already said in my post (please read it) that I have asked several times for service manual to customer service mail from CC, no response till now, not even an email saying "sorry, we do not provide that info for these reasons..." That's secrecy and not even to reply is what I consider simply unacceptable for me. I am sorry if that's appropiate for you, It is not for me.
Apologies for missing that, but as I said, no other high end damper manufacturers in any industry are providing their customers with that info, so I'm not sure why you're singling out Cane Creek (other than the fact that you happen to own one of their shocks at the moment). If having a service manual is such a deciding factor for you, I'm sure you'll be stoked on a Vivid for your next shock, because nothing else has publicly available service manuals anyway.
Have a nice day and enjoy paying 100$ for changing oil and o-rings for your shock instead doing by yourself because you do not have the info
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Have any of you guys ever flipped through the OWNER manual (not the service manual) of a Japanese motocross bike? There are complete detailed instructions on how to service the entire rear shock, including the damper. Granted, most MX bikes have zero warranty, but Showa is confident enough to give that information out to a new owner.
Udi, any chance I can get a copy of the CCDB manual from you?
Chris.
Udi, any chance I can get a copy of the CCDB manual from you?
Chris.
Chris, check your email.
As for Showa, they would have a much more stable sales base, with at least a few big OEM customers. Joe MX down the street having his Showa damper fail in public after servicing it himself is unlikely to put a dent in anything other than his own ego.
MTB Suspension manufacturers on the other hand tend to be smaller outfits, and thus have the potential to cop a larger percentage impact from a few bad shocks getting around.
Granted I've seen plenty of this happen due to the manufacturer's own incompetence as well, but encouraging every kid out there to rip open their shock only doesn't make the situation any better.
As for Showa, they would have a much more stable sales base, with at least a few big OEM customers. Joe MX down the street having his Showa damper fail in public after servicing it himself is unlikely to put a dent in anything other than his own ego.
MTB Suspension manufacturers on the other hand tend to be smaller outfits, and thus have the potential to cop a larger percentage impact from a few bad shocks getting around.
Granted I've seen plenty of this happen due to the manufacturer's own incompetence as well, but encouraging every kid out there to rip open their shock only doesn't make the situation any better.
I've found this to be pretty hilarious. Even KTM has service instructions for their more complicated and slightly-harder-to-bleed WP needle-piston shocks.
What's funnier is that those shocks are actually a bit tougher to do a really thorough rebuild on compared to any mtb shock. Oh well.
I've known quite a few people to just drill/tap a hole in the IFP for the same bleed screw that is used in a Fox or Zoke. Eliminates the whole need for that goofy tool, and lets you bleed it the same way in a bench vice as you could with any other shock. Just measure the IFP depth down to that shoulder first.
Sweet, thanks. So just drill/ tap a hole in the IFP, add a screw and an o-ring, and rock and roll? I can handle that.
Yup, just double check for thickness and how many threads it'll need. It's really nice if you can add a countersink on the oil side to help lead the air out of the oil.
Edit: Plus I'm sure Drake at ISO could always order a new IFP for you if it fuks up somehow.
Edit: Plus I'm sure Drake at ISO could always order a new IFP for you if it fuks up somehow.
I just downloaded a YZF426 manual to check that out, and that one hasn't got anything about servicing the shock's damper (though it does go through how to pull the entire engine, gearbox, brakes and front fork to bits and service them all!). Found it here for anyone who wants to check it out (rear shock stuff is chapter 5, 5-59 onwards). Honda's manuals (available here) also don't go into pulling down the rear shock, just how to install/uninstall it. There's also nothing on the Showa, Yamaha, Ohlins, WP or KTM websites in terms of rear damper service instructions.
Anyway at the end of the day all I am trying to say is that manufacturers don't give consumers this information for a reason - with anything pressurised there is a risk of injury to inexperienced people working on it, and probably of more concern to the manufacturers, there is the risk of somebody making a relatively minor error with very big consequences for equipment or rider, that may end up impacting the manufacturer. Not to say I have any issue with people servicing their own stuff, in fact I think it's great, but slagging off a company's service quality as "unacceptable" for not providing that kind of info to random people they don't know, who may or may not be competent enough to do the work properly, seems a bit unfair to me.
I don't own any Yamaha MX bikes, but I do own a bunch of Honda bikes, including a '02 CRF450R and a '04 CRF250R. Each was delivered with an owners manual that included a Disassembly/Assembly chapter which dedicates 10 pages to a complete rebuild of the rear shock. Comparing it to what's in my printed Honda service manuals, it's nearly identical. You can read the 10 pages from my 250R owner's manual:
http://www.salvador.pro/bike_pics/CRF250ROnwerManual_RearShock.pdf
Chris.
http://www.salvador.pro/bike_pics/CRF250ROnwerManual_RearShock.pdf
Chris.
A YZF426 is pretty old. Last I think they were made in 2002? I bet an '05+ anything would have it.
I live in germany. Do I have to send the shock to CC-USA for a servie?
Can I get the wervice-manual too?
Can I get the wervice-manual too?
just send it to tftuned, had my shock back in 9 days. very quick turn around from these guys.