[Full Trucker]

After running a qualifying-less 4X in Nathrop and a qualifying-less Dual at Battle at the Bear, it has been determined that a return to "qualifying" runs is indeed more fair and necessary.

Here's the scoop: Everyone that enters the 4X at Chile Challenge WILL RACE. So it's not actually "qualifying", but everyone will take a timed run to determine seeding order and bracketing and all of that. Call it a seeding run, a bracketing run, whatever you need to call it, but in essence everyone will still get a minimum of two race runs... one solo-style and timed for seeding, and at least one with you class. No more random bracket assignment... we tried it, it was okay, but "qualifying" is better.

Gate/lane assignment WILL STILL BE DETERMINED AT THE GATE. In other words, lane assignment will still be random. This is to help expediate the elimination rounds and keep everything running smoothly. So basically you get just as good a chance at getting the primo lane 1 position as the guy that "qualified" first in your class, or the guy that "qualified" last.

To help keep the "waiting around" to a minimum, a revised schedule has been developed. It will be posted at www.cyclecyndicate.com in the next day or so, but here's the skinny: DH and 4X practice on Friday. There will be an HOUR of 4X practice first thing Saturday morning, with seeding/timed runs directly to follow. DH practice the rest of the day, then more 4X practice followed by 4X finals in the late afternoon/early evening. Worried about missing an hour or so of DH practice due to 4X seeding runs? You get back an hour of practice Sunday morning before the DH finals.

Any questions? Post 'em here and I'll do my best to answer!

 

[Beast]

Personally I thought battle at the bear was far too unorganized - however, I REALLY enjoyed Nathrop . . . also, I feel, and I'm sure many others do too, that being able to race (actually race against others - ie. not a qualifying run) multiple times is MUCH more enjoyable. I don't know about everyone else, but I really did enjoy Nathrop a lot.

Also, why run a qualifier if you don't get lane choice - simply to match up the fast guys with the slow ones??? I guess I'm a little confused on that one . . .

I honestly believe that people would rather run the double elimination than to run a qualifier and then be completely out of it the first time you don't advance.

Will there still be a conselation (sp?) round - because being able to know how you actually would have placed, and getting points for that place, will make for some very interesting points races this season - and they would be much more telling of how you actually did.

I think what the hell, give it a shot at Angel Fire and see how it goes! Then we can compare better having done both in the same season.

 

[Full Trucker]

Here's some more info, based on some excellent comments by Beast. Keep in mind that going back to seeding runs does not solve everything, just as random bracketing didn't solve everything. What the organizers of the series are trying to accomplish is giving everyone as much practice and race time as possible with as little waiting around as possible.

Originally posted by Beast
Personally I thought battle at the bear was far too unorganized

I also feel this is true... BATB was pretty disheveled for SURE. Registration and practice starting at the same time? Running the 30+ Expert round of 8 at the same time the round of 32 Pro class? The list could go on, but we're not here to blamestorm.

however, I REALLY enjoyed Nathrop . . .

It was my mic skillz, wasn't it?

also, I feel, and I'm sure many others do too, that being able to race (actually race against others - ie. not a qualifying run) multiple times is MUCH more enjoyable.

I also feel that running multiple elimination runs is better for learning how to race, strategy, skills, etc. BUT! It is simply unfair when the random bracketing puts 4 fast fast fast guys in round one, and a really slow, unskilled rider gets a bye. It's not fair for two reasons: 1.) The unskilled rider doesn't get to learn anything by racing against other, faster racers. 2.) Two of the fast guys are eliminated right off the bat, while guys that can't even balance in the gate advance inot quarter- and semi-final rounds.

Also, why run a qualifier if you don't get lane choice - simply to match up the fast guys with the slow ones???

"Qualifying" or timed "Seeding" runs are first and foremost to determine bracketing position... not lane choice. The lane choice thing was a secondary function of seeding, not primary. And honestly, the #1 seeded rider in any class should have a better gate start than the #16 seeded rider, so in theory it shouldn't make a difference which lane they get put in. As long as the course allows for passing, the faster/better racer should always win. Keeping track of who gets lane choice throughout the elimination rounds is an added stressor to the race organizers, and slows down the racing process. Random lane assigment is quicker and (in theory) should be completely fair. (see below about the quicker thing)

I honestly believe that people would rather run the double elimination than to run a qualifier and then be completely out of it the first time you don't advance.

Some would, for sure, rather have more elimination race runs. But a LOT of others, especially Pros and top Experts, are also very concerned about the fairness of things. And honestly, the biggest concern across the board is not about whether we do seeding runs or not, but about the amount of time spent waiting around to race. We are addressing this situation by having seeding runs in the a.m. with finals in the evening... hence plenty of time to get the brackets in order for finals.

Will there still be a conselation (sp?) round - because being able to know how you actually would have placed, and getting points for that place, will make for some very interesting points races this season - and they would be much more telling of how you actually did.

The "secondary" or consolation bracket would more than likely not be implemented any longer. I understand that it's nice to know how you actually did, instead of "tieing for 9th" or whatever, but in the bigger classes where initial rounds are 64 racers deep and the secondary bracket is racing for 33rd place, it's not really doing much to sort out the points series anyways. Yeehaw... you got 35th place! Well, there are still 8 riders tied for 9th, know what I'm saying?

I think what the hell, give it a shot at Angel Fire and see how it goes! Then we can compare better having done both in the same season.

Exactly!

Again, the series organizers know that going back to seeding runs doesn't solve everything, but neither did the random bracketing. What we found was that in the smaller classes (rounds of 8 and 16) the randomness worked really well, especially when the bracket was pretty full without a lot of byes. However, in the larger classes of 32 and 64, with more byes to fill out the class, the fairness quotient definitely dropped exponentially.

We of the MSC are still committed to bringing the bast racing that can be had in the entire country, and that means we are always open to suggestion and comments. In fact, it was rider input that prompted the series organizers to return to a more traditional approach to 4X racing! I will continue to field questions and comments through this thread, and hopefully put everyone's mind at ease that we are simply trying to have the best freaking series out there... better even than the NORBA series if at all possible!

 

[neversummersnow]

My only suggestion would be to run qualifying and racing on two completly seperate days. Nothing worse than waiting to race and getting mighty cold.

 

[Full Trucker]

Originally posted by neversummersnow
My only suggestion would be to run qualifying and racing on two completly seperate days. Nothing worse than waiting to race and getting mighty cold.

4X practice and seeding runs in the a.m., then DH practice all afternoon, with 4X finals at 4:00 isn't doing it for ya?

If we do the seeding runs Friday (which was discussed) people that can't take Friday off of work wouldn't be able to race. Conversley, if we ran the DH finals on Saturday morning, 4X seeding Saturday night with XC and 4X finals Sunday afternoon, there wouldn't be any time for people coming up Friday night to practice for DH.

Trust me, we've thought about all this for a LONG time, and the organizers really feel this is the optimal solution given all the factors.

 

[neversummersnow]

Oh...wait...

Nevermind, I just was saying running qualifying followed by racing is a problem. Running qualifying in the morning with Racing in the afternoon works awesome. Just as long as your not racing cold, or boring spectators.

I don't even know why I care, I'm prolly just racing DH. *UNLESS* I can work out some sort of volunteer entry fee...hint hint....

Well, better get to sleep, another 10 hour day with two rides integrated...anyone want a peice of me at the BMX track tommorow afternoon I say BRING IT (High Ridge)

 

[DHblur]

I do think it's kinda sketchy that there is still random gate assignment even with qualifying. If I qualify better than someone, I shouldn't have to worry about them getting the primo gate choice. But that's just me bitching because I didn't get home from a 22 hour drive until 11:00 last night and I still have to go to school today. :angry:

Oh and you really don't say that Battle at the Bear was ran poorly? Wow, I would have never guessed that!!!!

 

[2young2ride]

Your making this too confusing. Either random bracket riders or qualify with gates choosen by the the best qualifying time. But don't try to mix the two.

I agree that if random bracketing is done it should be double-elimination. That or run it like BMX. With four riders there are two qualifying rounds. Round 1 the first rider qualifies, round 2 the first rider qualifies.

Coming from BMX getting stuck with a stacked moto is not uncommon. Whether fair or not. However, the moto building method that has been used has been inadequate. If you have a class of 16 with only 11 riders. Rather than placing all the byes in the lotto, you would take four of the byes and place one in each bracket. Then place the extra bye in the lotto. This way there are no empty brackets, like those that occured at Nathrop and Bear.

 

[DHblur]

... better even than the NORBA series if at all possible!

Well, I think it's already better than that. As of race time at the slalom at Big Bear the race judges still couldn't make up their mind on something that was totally unrealistic. I don't know if anyone heard but they made a rule that you had to have your tire set up against the gate until it fell. Therefore, even though there was a BMX cadence you could not pull back before the gate dropped and get the perfect start. GAY!!!! I thought King was gonna smack the judges... Jill Kitner lost because of that gay rule.

Okay back on track, really EC, I see your point time wise on random gate seeding but the fastest qualifier isn't always the one with the best gate start. I agree with 2y2ride. Do it all or nothin'.

Hell, what someone should do is run more slalom races!!!! I had more fun racing slalom than I've had in a long time. And what's more, I had tons of fun spectating too(since I got knocked out earlier than planned). 4X is fun to watch and ride too but switching it up is good. Slalom made for much more exciting finishes consistently every round than 4X ever does. It was sick!!!!

 

[zstyle_22]

I agree, slalom is WAY better than mountain cross. The big bear slalom racing was off the hook! I really wish someone in colorado would bring back slalom.

 

[Full Trucker]

There has been talk of doing a slalom race outside of the MSC sometime this year, but we will have to see if that comes to fruition. Salom is the sickest sh!t they is, AND the most fair. Fastest rider wins, period. Barring any "Gate Barging" rule, that is!

OK... this next part gets long. Brendan, you may want to take a nap before you read it, I know how intellectual stuff wears you out!

There had also been talk of doing the three-moto style qualifying with random gates and brackets for 4X, just like in BMX... but what MSC determined is that this ISN'T BMX, and three motos plus semis plus finals would probably take a lot longer than an already arduous process taht we have now. Besides, we're mountain bikers, and the whole timed runs for qualifying/seeding is part of our history.

As I stated earlier about the random lane assignment vrs. fastest qualifier choosing lanes: MSC will stick (for now... who knows if the powers that be will change their mind again, or be swayed by public opinion again) with running random lane assignment for each moto.

There are two options: move the race along at a steady pace or give preference to the fastest qualifiers through lane choice. The MSC feels that the general consensus amongst the majority of our racing constituents is for the race move along at a steady pace than give preference to the faster qualifiers IN THIS MANNER (lane choice). Besides, by running seeding runs and bracketing accordingly, preference is already being given to the faster qualifiers by pairing them with the slower qualifiers. Most or ALL of the fastest guys should also have the skills to pass, even if they don't have the best gate starts. You shouldn't be that damn fast without having learned how to ride your bike a little bit, and if the fast guys out there get stuck with a crappy gate, it should, in theory, make them better riders learning to cope with it and still get a stellar run in rather than relying on the money gate position all the time. Just think of it this way: when you head to Nationals and you're NOT the fastest qualifier and another racer gets gate choice and you get stuck in Poopsville, you'll have an edge because you learned how to ride smart out of crappy lanes. Life is about opportunity, gentlemen. And further more, I've raced 4X where the ONE guy I beat in qualifying still muscled his way into a better lane shot than me, and I didn't even realize it had happened until the gate had dropped.

"Hey!" thought I, "that douchebag stole my rightfully qualified-for lane choice!"

Keeping track ofwho gets lane choice once the round of 8 hits in a full 64 bracket of Expert class can get mighty confusing, not too mention SLOW.

Alright, I've said my piece twice (possibly three times now) so I'll back off. Please know that I ain't trying to offend anyone, just completely explain the choices that have been made and why.

Also, MSC understands that not everyone is going to be happy with every decision that gets made. Just understand that every decision is made with the highest quality racing experience in mind.

Cheers!

 

[neversummersnow]

Thanks FT! I appreciate the update!

Now I just need to decide if I should try and race 4x at Angelfire.....

 

[DHblur]

All this intellectual stuff does make me want to take a nap but first I have to go fail a few finals this morning.

That's cool though FT. I see your point about the speed on it and chances are I'm gonna have to pass my way to the front wherever I start from with my slow gate. It's all good though.

Jeff, you need to race!!!!!!!

 

[Beast]

FT, you never cease to amaze me with your well-thought-out answers that make everything so dang clear after reading them . . . and yes, I appluad your mic skills!

Seriously though, I think you guys have done an awesome job so far this season experimenting with new ways to make the races more spectator friendly and honestly, my family has enjoyed this years mx races more because of it.

And now I see the real point in qualifying, and it makes so much more sense!






Also, from now on, you will see Oakleys embedded into my posts as a friendly reminder... Just kidding and thanks for nabbing those up and holding onto them for me!

 

[Full Trucker]

Originally posted by Beast
Also, from now on, you will see Oakleys embedded into my posts as a friendly reminder...

It turns out I left those dang things on my coffee table, waiting to give back to ya. I'll remember 'em for Chile Challenge!

 

[Jimmy_Pop]

FT, do you know if AF is open to non-racers to ride the lift and trails. I jacked my knee last weekend. i was planning on racing DH at AF but not anymore. I'm going to drive out there anyway so my little brother can race. I was just wondering if you had any insite as to the status of non-racers having access to trails/lift.

Thanks!

joel

 

[Romeo]

If we go to the trouble of qualifying, I thing we oughta award lane choice to the fastest qualifiers. That shouldn't take any longer than pulling a gold ball from a jug.

 

[2young2ride]

agreed

 

[Full Trucker]

Originally posted by Romeo
If we go to the trouble of qualifying, I thing we oughta award lane choice to the fastest qualifiers. That shouldn't take any longer than pulling a gold ball from a jug.

You're opinion will start counting when you learn to put "Boulder, Colorado" as your hometown on your NORBA National Entry forms, mister.

 

[Full Trucker]

Originally posted by joel hester
FT, do you know if AF is open to non-racers to ride the lift and trails. I jacked my knee last weekend. i was planning on racing DH at AF but not anymore. I'm going to drive out there anyway so my little brother can race. I was just wondering if you had any insite as to the status of non-racers having access to trails/lift.

Thanks!

joel

During the race weekend, all riders must be registered and have a number plate on to ride. As far as I know, since it is an EVENT, you have to be registered so that you, the resort, and the promoters are covered insurance wise and all that.