Quantcast

Commencal Supreme Dh Question

sirbikealot

sirbikealot

Monkey
Sep 19, 2001
462
0
Dundas,ON,CAN
Heath Sherratt said:
Wow, these bikes are no joke. It's going to be interesting seeing how the American market accepts them. It's so saturated and they have an uphill battle for sure, but the bikes look great, the technology seems spot on and the prices seem right in the ball park, oh, and their team is going to be great too if Cedric gets serious(about racing). The one thing is that Cannondale is proven to me, Commencal is not. Practical application is more important than e-pinions. Should be fun to check out, maybe I'll get to ride one at Sea Otter. If any of you guys are there look for me in the DH line-expert 30-35. H
Click to expand...
something to remember is that they aren't a one bike line, they have over 20 models starting at $500usd, so they can walk into any shop and sell bikes whilst never selling a DH bike

in regards to quality, we had 5 racers on bikes this year and the only problem we had was a broken derailleur hanger that ended up getting stripped out of the frame (that was me hittin a tree at pace)

Commencal sold a few hundred bikes in Canada this year and last time I asked zero warranty's, so lets see how things go.

I've also put about 1500km on a Meta 4.10 XC bike with nothing but accolades
 
Jm_

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
19,029
9,683
AK
dropmachine.com said:
The commencal is different. Its stupidly efficient, and firm. The rear end isn't a plush ride
Click to expand...
So it doesn't do the #1 thing that suspension is supposed to do;

Suspend.
 
D

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
What are you talking about?

Ask any fast racer: the suspension isn't there to make the ride comfy, its there to keep your rear wheel on the ground and provide traction. You want comfy, hump a fat chick.
 
WheelieMan

WheelieMan

Monkey
Feb 6, 2003
937
0
kol-uh-RAD-oh
dropmachine.com said:
What are you talking about?

Ask any fast racer: the suspension isn't there to make the ride comfy, its there to keep your rear wheel on the ground and provide traction. You want comfy, hump a fat chick.
Click to expand...
Problem is, a suspension that is firm or "not plush" does not necessarily "keep the rear wheel on the ground and provide traction." Just because a suspension is firm feeling does not mean it's efficient.
 
D

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
It works, trust me. I am nowhere near enough of an e-engineer to explain it, but it works. Do you really thing a company like commencal, with the wealth of experience and the worlds fastest racers, would design a bike that didn't work?
 
sirbikealot

sirbikealot

Monkey
Sep 19, 2001
462
0
Dundas,ON,CAN
Here is a synopsis of the suspension design process given to me by Clement of Commencal bikes. It outlines how the suspension design and pivot placement supercedes all other factors (choice of the tubes, conception of the machined or forged parts, amount of travel) so essentially they took a look at the kinematics of what they were trying to acheive and the results was a 7.2 inch, rod and rocker link with the pivot at the tooth of a 42T ring.
(its translated from French so some words seem a little off but you get the idea)
The have named it "The Contact System"

Our main goal is to create a performance suspension system which deliver the best grip, so the pedaling efficiency, by filtering the pedaling motion. To succeed with this goal in mind we have build the Meta and Supreme frames with the same principles :

(1) A mono-pivot link.

The location of the pivot point connecting the front triangle and the rear triangle is an important point which influence the balance of the bike and his ability to avoid bobing and kickback.

The horizontal position of the pivot point interact directly on the weight balance applied on the front and rear wheel. This location is changing depending of the bike program.
A XC frame such as the Meta 4, which needs to be able to ride all kind of terrain, climb and go downhill, needs an horizontal weight balance of 55% on the rear and 45% on the front. Which means that 55% of the rider weight is on the rear wheel and 45% on the front wheel.
At the opposit, a DH frame such as the Supreme DH, which evoluate in really steep tracks, needs an horizontal weight balance close to 70% on the rear and 30% on the front.
In both situation, the goal is to find a dynamic balance close to 50% on each wheel, that is to say in riding condition. Note that this balance is influenced by the quality of the front and rear suspensions and by the frame geometry, especially the angles.


The vertical pivot point location interact on the capacity of the bike to filter the pedaling motion phenomen. The answer is to find the pivot location which affect the less the suspension running. The action of the chain on the ring, depending on the pivot location, create a torque which give either a bobing reaction if the pivot point is located under the chain line, either a kickback phenomen if the pivot point is located above the chain line. In both situation, the pedaling efficiency is not good because a fair part of the rider energy is dissipated in a movement which is not usefull for the bike progression.
The challenge is made harder by the fact that a classical transmission has 3 chainrings therefore 3 differents chain line positions. Consequently you have to compromise.


During a classical use the small chainring is used to climb at low speed. The ratio is really low. You don’t feel the pedaling effect on the suspension performance.
The middle chainring is the most used, especially on flat terrain and it’s essential to not feel the pedaling motion (bobing). Therefore this is necessary to locate the pivot point above the middle chainring.
The big chainring, used at top speed and in downhill must privilegiate the grip. The pedaling effect doesn’t have to affect the suspension performance. Therefore the pivot point needs to be located under the big chainring.

Consequently on the Meta 4, Meta 5 and Supreme FR, the pivot point location is 1/3 above the distance between the middle and big chainring.

On the Supreme DH, the pivot point location is located at the same level than the top tooth of a 42T chainring, which is the most popular size in downhill.

Usually, a mono pivot connection associated to a front triangle and a rear swingarm using classical construction (triangle shape type) give the best compromise in term of stiffness and reliability. This is sign of longevity.

A connecting rod – rocker link system.


The adding of a connecting rod – rocker link system between the frame and the rear shock is essential to control the progressivity curve of the wheel / shock travel ratio.
As suprising as it seems, the principle is the same on Meta and Supreme : a connecting rod fixed on the rear triangle is pushing the rear shock via a rocker link fixed on the front triangle. Each articulation point is calculate with precision and interact on the progressivity curve, thuson the quality of the suspension. During the calculation of the kinematic points the goal was to offer the best grip on the rear wheel and in all conditions : grip in turns, grips during braking and motricity on climb ; while having an excellent run at the end of the travel especially on big shocks.

The studying of a kinematic suspension is an essential period during of the frame creation where we have to take count of each parameter (grip, motricity, control of the progressivity curve). The structural conception (choice of the tubes, conception of the machined or forged parts) is totally dependent of this study.
 
WheelieMan

WheelieMan

Monkey
Feb 6, 2003
937
0
kol-uh-RAD-oh
dropmachine.com said:
It works, trust me. I am nowhere near enough of an e-engineer to explain it, but it works. Do you really thing a company like commencal, with the wealth of experience and the worlds fastest racers, would design a bike that didn't work?
Click to expand...
I guess you didn't see my post earlier about quantity of travel vs. quality...

I am confused if this firm setup you speak of has more to do with the suspension travel or with bike design/shock setup.

There is obviously a point where a bike has too little travel for downhill racing, and a point where a bike has too much travel for downhill racing. But I can tell you that there is no "magical" suspension travel that is more efficient than others. It does not take an engineer or a pro racer to determine whether a bike works or not, it takes personal experience. What works great for one course and rider might not work so well for another.
 
D

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
I definately agree. I will get that review written up, as its all based on info from the guys that rode them this year. Hopefully that helps.

I can say that the bike never feels short on travel.
 
dhkid

dhkid

Turbo Monkey
Mar 10, 2005
3,358
0
Malaysia
so does this mean that the bike works the best with a 42t chain ring? so runnig a 36t ring with a road cassette wouldn't be good?
 
keeping_it_real

keeping_it_real

Monkey
Jan 12, 2005
200
0
Lancashire (U.K)
Dont forget niether that Commencial was born from Sunn when they went bust. The guys behind this bike engineered one of the best bikes ever made..........

The Sunn Radical+.
The Sunn team was unstoppable-Nico, CAC, etc stormed it on these achines so I cant wait to see what Gracia does this year.
 
Heath Sherratt

Heath Sherratt

Turbo Monkey
Jun 17, 2004
1,871
0
In a healthy tension
I just got to ride one of the Supreme DH bikes....WOW. It's amazing. It's like the entire bike is engineered for one purpose, traction. For those racers or even riders out there that love to stay on the ground and fly, this is the bike. Light-but not too light-simple-and FAST. Very impressed.
 
sirbikealot

sirbikealot

Monkey
Sep 19, 2001
462
0
Dundas,ON,CAN
dhkid said:
so does this mean that the bike works the best with a 42t chain ring? so runnig a 36t ring with a road cassette wouldn't be good?
Click to expand...
the optimal ring choice is a 42T as that is where the pivot is correlated with, a 36T will change things slightly but its likely barely noticable to the average rider
 
zmtber

zmtber

Turbo Monkey
Aug 13, 2005
2,435
0
post pics of the commencal supr DH bikes, o yeah can you run the dhx air on it? tell me if someone has already asked this question, but i looked and didn't find anything
 
zmtber

zmtber

Turbo Monkey
Aug 13, 2005
2,435
0
sorry really want to see some pics, or clips of this thing in action, because it might be my next bike frame ^^^
 
T

thaflyinfatman

Turbo Monkey
Jul 20, 2002
1,577
0
Victoria
WheelieMan said:
Problem is, a suspension that is firm or "not plush" does not necessarily "keep the rear wheel on the ground and provide traction." Just because a suspension is firm feeling does not mean it's efficient.
Click to expand...

Ever ridden a Sunday or an SGS? Nowhere near as plush as a V10 or an M1... but they have heaps more cornering traction. Having overly soft suspension seems to cause your weight shifts to become less controlled/more extreme, and result in less traction because of it. Try cornering with an 05 or earlier 888 (with no LSC sleeve) vs a Boxxer - the 888 is a much plusher fork but when push comes to shove, it doesn't offer the same traction or control when you're cornering hard. A predictable bike is a fast bike.

Also, can anyone who has a Supreme DH please do me a favour and measure the bb height (to the centre of the bb spindle), and state what fork that's with?
 
P

patineto

The RM Mad Scientist
Feb 19, 2002
935
0
berkeley, ca
dropmachine.com said:
This arrived for me today. :)

Click to expand...
wow the canfield brother are really smart..

the linkage somehow resamble the old Nucleon concept


a good thing in my book...

congratulations on the new frame, looks awesome..
 
sirbikealot

sirbikealot

Monkey
Sep 19, 2001
462
0
Dundas,ON,CAN
thaflyinfatman said:
Also, can anyone who has a Supreme DH please do me a favour and measure the bb height (to the centre of the bb spindle), and state what fork that's with?
Click to expand...
14.3 inches with a Fox (set at 180mm or 7 inches of travel)
 
D

Dufault01

Chimp
Nov 10, 2005
36
0
Shyrmp said:
Can't wait for the new Hutchie Barracuda threads.
Are you guys still with Hutchie?
Click to expand...
Yes we are, just resigned with them. I cant wait for them aswell. Look like they are going to be a good quebec tire.
 
D

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
I can't wait to take it for a rip. I've heard such good things about it everywhere, its driding me nuts having it here and unable to go.

I am excited in the worst way. :)
 
D

Dufault01

Chimp
Nov 10, 2005
36
0
dropmachine.com said:
I can't wait to take it for a rip. I've heard such good things about it everywhere, its driding me nuts having it here and unable to go.

I am excited in the worst way. :)
Click to expand...
Its way to mint Jeff. I will have to take it for a test ride and put some dents in it:)
 
Shyrmp

Shyrmp

Nekkid Girl Gone Wild
Dec 31, 2002
1,457
20
The suburbs of Mexico.....
Dufault01 said:
Yes we are, just resigned with them. I cant wait for them aswell. Look like they are going to be a good quebec tire.
Click to expand...
If the rpoduction Baracuda's would be as good as the prototyres we've been running since Interbike, I'm stoked.

Nice bikes. Some Commencal squad were in Fontana racing two weekends ago, just an FYI. I think they're with the US/No. Am Distributor. Good luck this year and feel free to PM me or Orvan here on RM about your tire notes/feedback/tips from your team when you get your time in on your threads.
 
sirbikealot

sirbikealot

Monkey
Sep 19, 2001
462
0
Dundas,ON,CAN
Shyrmp said:
If the rpoduction Baracuda's would be as good as the prototyres we've been running since Interbike, I'm stoked.

Nice bikes. Some Commencal squad were in Fontana racing two weekends ago, just an FYI. I think they're with the US/No. Am Distributor. Good luck this year and feel free to PM me or Orvan here on RM about your tire notes/feedback/tips from your team when you get your time in on your threads.
Click to expand...
will do, Marc Gullickson has been great to us and the feedback weve given him and vice versa has worked great as Hutchinson is certainly to be wreckened with in the DH/FR/4X scene now
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom