[Total Heckler]

I have been riding flats my whole life including the last 5 years or racing DH and also racing BMX when I was a kid.

I somewhat recently (July 17th) had shoulder surgery that has put me off a MTB until at least mid to late October. I was cleared to start riding road again 2 weeks ago by my doctor and physical therapist.

I have ridden road and cyclocross with clips for the past 5 years and when I started riding my road bike again a couple weeks ago, I quickly got comfortable/acclimated riding with them again. Track stands, sprinting, etc is all gravy now after putting almost 50 miles in over the last 2 weeks commuting to/from work.

I guess I am considering trying to make my comeback to DH with clips because of the potential perks of riding/racing with them. The reason this is even crossing my mind is because I am pretty comfortable with them on the road. But, I have never ridden DH with clips before so there are some pretty serious concerns I have with the idea of riding a MTB with them. The closest to riding DH with them is on my CX bike, but I usually keep that riding pretty tame.

My main concerns are cornering and steep gnarly stuff I think. I have gotten pretty used to quickly being able to drop my foot out to stabilize on cornering etc. And for steep parts I am worried about not being able to unclip if something bad was about to happen. I can also see getting sketched on a drop and trying to unclip putting me and my bike in an even more awkward position for landing than if I were on flats.

The perks would for sure be not having my foot blow off a pedal through rough terrain, drops, etc. The pedaling seems to be more appealing as well with being able to utilize the up stroke for more power.

Is it worth re-learning how to ride?


What do you guys think? Any of you guys converts? Let's hear your thoughts.

 

[blackohio]

I've been thinking of switching it up a bit, but the good flats and the Sam Hill 510's are just like having clips.

 

[wiscodh]

i switched this year, i ride tons of am/xc with them. Ride gnarly stuff all the time. Coming out isn't the problem, i always feel that getting back in is the worst part if you do have to unclip for any reason.

The biggest difference is jumping and cornering. I had to make a real effort to not pull up with the clips and keep back pressure on the pedals to keep the rear down over jumps.

I like flats if the course is wet or loose, clips if dry, fast.

shimano shoes time pedals
510's sunlines.

 

[chillindrdude]

i'm running vans warners spd shoes with CrankBros mallets. awesome combo, never jammed on me. and when unclipped, it feels more like flats than any other platform-ish clipless pedals i've ever tried.

 

[djjohnr]

I started with clips then moved to flats, and I've gone back and forth a couple times. Clips are fine until you have to un-clip then get back in again quickly, for me this is really only an issue in loose off-camber corners where I've come into too hot.

 

[EVIL JN]

I have during this summer done pretty much the exact same thing and for me i had never in my life riden with clips before. So i started riding clipped in on my dj bike to and from school and just trying to corner from side to side on the sidewalk and rember to unclipp when getting of. It help and then i just started to ride my local dh tracks but at slower speeds.

As said above the hard part is to get back in if you unclipp.
I have time myself on my personal track at my house wich i have done about 600 runs down over the last years and the clips gave more consistent tmes but they were still slower than flats.
It is better to try and see for yourself if you feel you can go faster than with flats, but i'd say that most people ride clipped in since they lack the skill to keep there feet on the pedals and clips wont provide much extra power that you couldn't get at training a little in the gym during the winter. Plus the key to winning races is cornering speed.
But as always that wich makes the rider more confident will make him faster

 

[MDJ]

but i'd say that most people ride clipped in since they lack the skill to keep there feet on the pedals and clips wont provide much extra power that you couldn't get at training a little in the gym during the winter. Plus the key to winning races is cornering speed.

I'd say you need to lay off the pipe. I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

(edit: that's like me saying most people run flats because they aren't skilled enough to clip in and out.)

I've been riding clipped in since the days when you had to use road pedals on the MTB (since there weren't specific mtb pedals) and flats even longer. I still ride both and it depends on the track, conditions, what I want to do on that particular day, and my mood.

To the OP, clipping in is more of an issue than unclipping as others have said. The only thing that concerns me when clipped in is doing high skinnies. Of couse, I don't waste my time doing skinnies so that's not an issue. Just try both and run what you like. There is no reason to pick one and abandon the other. I always take both when I go to N* and basically decide when I'm getting ready or even split the day.

 

[gonefirefightin]

I went to these and never looked back, best of both worlds with one shoe, got them on all of my bikes now

 

[EVIL JN]

I'd say you need to lay off the pipe. I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

(edit: that's like me saying most people run flats because they aren't skilled enough to clip in and out.)

I maybe was a bit harsh but still there arent to mcuh real advantages to clips nowdays. A good setup suspension, stealth rubberand a nice fealing pedal and you can take home a world cup overall. everyone should ride on stuff that makes them go faster and not what everybody else use or thinks is the best but sayning for a fact that clips is faster than flats is saying to much. Mostly it is up to the rider to feel for them self wich type they can take the most advantage of.

 

[SylentK]

Uhhhh...just because you're not clipped in doesn't mean you can't use the pedal. If you can't clip in right away and you've got a feature to get thru, plan on using the pedal like a flat pedal. Those of you coming from flats shouldn't have a problem with that. But it is possible. I do it, so can you!

To the OP, I don't think you have to relearn anything. In fact coming from your background you should be able to make the transition easily. Your concern is a valid one, and one we clipped in riders face all the time, but somehow we always manage to succeed (usually ;-) It isn't as bad as you think. Just giv'er and see what happens!

 

[mtnbiker49]

Definately go with clipless.

 

[ATOMICFIREBALL]

Fark clips!
Platforms forever man..

 

[bdamschen]

I've tried both, and what always bugged me about clips was the feeling that I my foot was so much higher off the axle than with a nice low pro set of flats.

I know that seems kinda dork-ish or picky but I swear I notice that even more than if I had made changes to things like bar width or head angle.

 

[bizutch]

Looking at my bike last night, I have been running clipless again this year on the DHR after having ran 5.10s and flats for the last 2 seasons. They have their place and I should have switched back to flats before my race run at Dirty Bird (what with the downpour of rain that made it impossible to stay upright and clippeda t the same time). But with every other track, I can run clipless as if I were on flats, putting a foot out to drift or stomp in off cambers, even riding on it unclipped.

The trick is to go with Lake/Vans/661/DX style shoes b/c then you can ride it out if you blow off a pedal or both and eventually, your feet will click back in, if not automaticly.

If you're gonna race DH in them for the first time, I always recommend the Shimano pedals though, because the spring loading tilts the tip of the cleat up for you. I run Crank Brothers Mallets and they work great if you're unclipped and you just pop straight down into them.

I was reminded of the negative of clips though last night. I looked and my pedal body has play in it and will need to be replaced soon...whereas I've had a set of Specialized platforms for over 3 seasons now and not done squat to them.

 

[slowitdown]

you can still unclip, put out a foot, and clip back in on the corners you're talking about.

anyone who says 5.10s and good pedals are equal to clipless simply doesn't ride far or long enough to see the obvious differences.

for DH racing the question of advantage depends on how pedally the course is. even a long DH course of 5-6 mins isn't that much pedaling, overall. but go to Super D or MegaValanche style races and the differences in efficiency are significant. you can still run flats and 5.10s but I wouldn't do it myself, too much lost energy IMO. but that's probably because I came to MTB from the road 20 years ago, and I was always clipped in. I rode flats for 3 years to improve my bike handling, bunny hops, and confidence on elevated stunts but these days I never ride flats anywhere except commuting.

 

[atrokz]

I've been thinking of switching it up a bit, but the good flats and the Sam Hill 510's are just like having clips.

No, they are not.


Flats for most of my life, clips for the last few years solely on the DH bike. Awesome change.

 

[buildyourown]

I use both. I switch back and forth at will.
If nothing else, it's nice to be able to ride clips on my 6" bike while pedaling up and still feel comfortable enough to let it hang out on the way down.
DHers who never run clips look like retarded monkeys trying to run flats on a trail bike.

 

[mgy]

There are actually some big advantages to being clipped in. There is a reason Minnaar and Peat race clipped in 99% of the time.

1. Clips keep you on the falls of your feet. On flats sometimes you bucked and land on your instep or heel eliminating one very effective shock absorbing joint, your ankle.

2. Minnaar likes to stay clipped in when it is muddy because it encourages him to use correct technique and stay in balance, putting a foot down usually puts you in an off balance position.

If you can ride flats and stay on the balls of your feet and resist the urge to but your foot down (two things Nathan Rennie and Sam Hill do well) flats work well.

 

[Inclag]

Just went back to clips from 3 years on flats.

At first I swapped out to my old Shimano SPD/661 Shoe combo, and instantly realized why I was riding on flats. The mud clearance was terrible, the clip and cleat were extremely difficult to find once unclipped, and the cage didn't really do anything helpful regarding feeling comfortable while pedaling unclipped. Despite all of this, I could really notice a difference in how much lighter I rode on the bike, and how mow much less taxing the ride was on my upper body and with arm pump. Kind of like riding moto and how it is less taxing controling the bike more with your legs and thighs.

So I did a little research and got a pair of Time Control Z's and some Adidas Plush XL shoes. The difference is night and day. The pedals have a great amount of float, a very positive retention system as opposed to the CB's, the clips are very easy to find when trying to clip back in, and with a soft treaded sole spd shoe it doesn't feel awkward or impossible to pedal even when not clipped in. I am really blown away by their performance and don't see why I would ride flats again at this current moment.

 

[olddogbmxer]

510 has shown their prototype SPD shoes, with sticky soles, at Interbike.
Hook these up with a pair of Time Z's.

 

[numerik]

After riding flats for DH for 10,11 years (but XC&AM on clipless for about 5) I raced this year DH 70% on clippless - and I am stoked. Glad I tried it. I think it's not that much about pedal efficiency as it is with keeping your feet in place over rough stuff. Like someone said it also improves your riding position and technic...well at least in my case.

 

[Prettym1k3]

Joshy...

After riding clips for the past 3 years and then switching over to flats, I can definitely see the benefits of having stuck to clips. You have a lot more control. Cornering and dropping a foot is nice and all, but my my 661 Filter shoes and my CB Mallets, I find I can get into and out of them almost as fast as if I was riding flats. Granted, it took me a while to get to that point, but it happens.

I can tell you this: Racing places like Northstar - Clips all the way. That's just my opinion. After doing a few races this past season at N*, I found that flats left me prone to dropping my foot too much, and then I'd fiddle iwth my 510's and Twenty6 pedals to get my foot back into an ideal position. With all the previous seasons of riding clips at Northstar, I found that occasionally I couldn't get my foot back in quickly, but most of the time it would snap right back in, and it was already in a prime location on the pedal. Plus, I knew that no matter how rough the terrain got, my feet would stick to the pedals just fine.

Now, for places like CCCX, I'd stick to flats. Some of those turns are outside off-camber, and those courses tend to be fast and loose, verses technical and loose, which involves, as I've found, a whole different set of foot-on/foot-off and shoe/pedal characteristics. If I make it to any CCCX events next season, I'll be riding flats. But I think if I race anything at Northstar next season, I'll be riding clips.

The only downside to clips is this: If you believe your foot is clipped in, and it's not, you'll pull up on your pedals or move your foot to push the rear end of your bike around, and your foot will FLY up off the pedals (because mentally you're preparing to bring up or swing around the entire weight of your bike with your feet).

In certain cases, things like this can happen, and trust me, it makes your heart skip a beat and scares the bejezus out of you.

Check my left foot:

 

[Inclag]

^ I believe the foot coming out while pulling up is more a function of the CB pedals than anything else. It's a pretty common complaint I gathered from Mallet users and one reason why I opted to go with another brand.

 

[yuroshek]

its easy to make the convert, i have made the change and my whole riding positioning on the bike has changed too. i really like being clipped in and riding rough trails. i can go into sections and just think about my line and not worrying about adjusting my feet on the pedals as they are coming off.

i use to always put my left foot out when corner/drifting but never the right foot(weird) but yet i still unclip and throw the foot out if needed and than clip right back in. no problems at all, just have to practice and get use to it.

i say make the switch and try it, if you dont like it sell the stuff and go back to flats.

 

[bizutch]

^ I believe the foot coming out while pulling up is more a function of the CB pedals than anything else. It's a pretty common complaint I gathered from Mallet users and one reason why I opted to go with another brand.

The only reason to yank a foot up out of a Mallet is bad sprint technique. I've ran Mallets since just about the day they came out and never had that problem.

But I will say that when we shuttle, you'll see me, Jeremy, Matt, Mueller and Motomike bust out flats and 5.10's. And every last one of us will switch back and forth to clipless depending on how we feel that day at races or on trail rides. Flats are fun. Clips are fun. Why choose....do both!

 

[I.van]

I've got clips on my AM bike, and flats on my dh bike, which works well for me because most of the DH tracks near me are slow and technical. I can definately see the advantages of clips on the DH bike though.

One of the things that has put me off going to clips for DH is that I have had some scary experiences when whipping off jumps and the outside foot unclipping. This has happened a couple of times at the BMX track and on the AM bike.

 

[Total Heckler]

You guys have given me a lot to think about.

I think I am going to give clips a shot and see how I feel.

I would still like to hear more input from people and their thoughts on the comparison of the two.

 

[slowitdown]

The only reason to yank a foot up out of a Mallet is bad sprint technique. I've ran Mallets since just about the day they came out and never had that problem.

I agree that most of the time, the Mallet is reliable. But I've had my feet pop out unexpectedly on Mallets occasionally, and on the Candy pedal repeatedly. Somehow I think the Candy uses a very soft spring compared to the other models.

My experience with Crank Bros pedals is that you can get flying feet if you have a worn cleat, or if you've hit one of the eggbeater spring's 4 bars and bent it slightly. You can also get it if you have interference between the pedal and the shoe, if you don't have enough space around the cleat on the shoe's sole, you need enough space for the pedal spring to operate.

 

[Total Heckler]

I think I would be running some CB mallets. I have Specialized SPD shoes right now that I was using for cross/road, would I need a new shoes?

Again, I am pretty new to this.

 

[Huck Banzai]

Clipping out? I rock it 'big boy style' and my 647's are jacked up in the spring tension to the point other people are afraid of my clips...

when you're 6'8" 250+ with bigfeet, you need TENSION! lolz

I dont use them for DH, but def see it as mostly preference, certainly diff advantages/characteristics to each. I wound up riding pile of skinnies clipped in one day, not thinking -- I suppose that couldve worked out badly..

 

[SylentK]

I prefer Shimano pedals due to their tension adjustability and durability. Shimano pedals with shimano shoes can't be beat. I rock the mx shoe (mp66?) and their 647's.

 

[Leppah]

I just went back to clips for DH. Rode flats for 4 years. but i'm on a smaller travel bike now. Clips help me get through rough stuff a little easier because i can unweight the bike in certain sections as opposed to just standing on my flat pedals and expecting the suspension to do everything. I'm a lot smoother on clips.
You definitely need some confidence when getting in to hairy sections with clips. You don't want to take your foot out and dab like you might with flats. Turning is a bit different too. I found myself leaning my bike too much with flat pedals, and not turning as efficiently. With clips, i could only lean it so far without a foot popping out. Definitely makes me a cleaner rider all around.

 

[numerik]

...well, I just won yesterday our '09 National cup in Masters category "experimenting" on clips so I say go for it and try.

 

[JRogers]

I switch back and forth, but mostly use clips (sometimes for DH, always for road and xc). Both have their benefits. Flats can be a bit more fun and a bit easier if the terrain is loose. With clips, pedaling is a bit more efficient (but I think most people exaggerate this) but the main advantage is feet staying on the pedals- they are just less likely to pop off or be in the wrong place. I also feel like I have a bit more control with clips- better ability to put the bike exactly where I want. I think I prefer clips overall, but don't really think one is better or always more fun than the other.

As for equipment, I use Shimano 647s and Adidas Plush shoes. I love the pedals. The cages broke off from rock impacts, but I found it doesn't make much of a difference. For shoes, you can use whatever you've got. I have used regular xc shoes for dh quite a bit. The Adidas are not as stiff (actually kind of annoyingly so- I can feel the pedal through the bottom of the shoe), but they are better for walking (around the base area of a resort or hiking up the trail a bit). They also offer a bit more protection. This isn't a huge concern but I have injured (though not seriously) the lower part of my ankles and the instep of my foot while riding dh with regular xc shoes. I also cracked a carbon sole on an xc shoe once and it may have been from the amount of dh I did on the shoes. Neither of these would probably have happened with dh shoes like the Plush or Hematoma. So dh specific shoes are nice to have if you can get them. But I would make sure you like clips before buying new shoes.

 

[ebarker9]

1. Clips keep you on the falls of your feet. On flats sometimes you bucked and land on your instep or heel eliminating one very effective shock absorbing joint, your ankle.

For me, this might be the most convincing reason. I like to have my interface with the bike as consistent as possible. Without being clipped in, I feel like I'm constantly wiggling around, trying to get my foot exactly where I want it. It's so easy to wind up with the pedal under your instep or heel and then your control is just shot.

 

[nowlan]

Get comfy on flats. Practice now and then, and if the track is to gnarly for clips switch over.

 

[Kanye West]

Just get some SPD's to start with so you can play with the tension and see how you like them riding off-road.

I personally like the XC shoes with the stiffer sole for riding long rocky trails. The arch of your foot gets a LOT less fatigued with a carbon sole. I think Shimano makes the stiffest carbon sole out there still.

I would stay away from the Crank Brothers stuff though. People who get them for free generally like them.

 

[SylentK]

I would stay away from the Crank Brothers stuff though. People who get them for free generally like them.

LOL...Ever notice how Crank Bro "followers" always talk about their customer service being so great?

Well i've never had a reason to contact Shimano CS. Cuz I've never had a problem with Shimano pedals!

I used to use XC type shoes for DH, but I found that doing that really decreases the life of those shoes. Plus they never had very good protection, either. I have been using a dedicated set of DH shoes (the shimano DX ones, MP66?) and one set of "everything else" shoes. The shimano DH shoes have a tough, roomy toe box that protects well. ANd the inside ankle of the shoe is raised to protect against crank and frame collision (a big selling point for me). PLus they are comfy enough to trail hike and walk around pits or the base bar w/ a cocktail after a long day.

 

[5150dhbiker]

I personally love riding clips. For me at least, it's perfect for anything technical, pedaling...just about anything.
The only thing I don't like is cornering. I feel much slower in corners so typically i'll unclip if it's a loose and tight corner.
Otherwise, I have no complaints and won't go back to flats!

 

[slowitdown]

I personally like the XC shoes with the stiffer sole for riding long rocky trails. The arch of your foot gets a LOT less fatigued with a carbon sole. I think Shimano makes the stiffest carbon sole out there still.

Totally agree. Stiffer soles designed for XC race compatibility are crucial for long rides, especially long descents. On softer soled shoes (i.e. Answer Flatfoot SPD) I can't stand up for more than 10 mins and my arches start cramping.

I don't think you need to go full-XC-racerboy though. My Lake MX165 are as stiff while pedaling as any XC race shoes I've owned, but walk about 1,000 times better -- Vibram hiking sole makes them feel like low-cut hiking boots when hike-a-bike sections pop up. Not the lightest shoes by any means, but way more comfy for an all-day ride where I'm on the bike for 9 hours. My old Carnac Scirocco shoes have the edge on lightness and stiffness but they're uncomfortable after about 3 hours and they suck at walking.