[Toshi]

In MikeD's 29er frame thread I posted this:

I'm not arguing that other builders take longer, [Thylacine] may be in the middle of the pack. I think the whole bike industry is ridiculous for the prices (compared to the mass-produced motorcycle world) and the lag times that people tolerate.

to which was responded:

Sorry to interject into the Thy thread but Toshi...you're entitled to your opinion of course but I take issue with it and you should know that the economics are fairly simple. Most single person builders are only capable of building a certain number of bikes/year. We all have bills, families, health needs and deserve to make a living wage. You may be surprised to know that there are A LOT of builders who charge "ridiculous prices" who are only making a couple $$/hr. If you don't understand it, I have to think it's because you're not familiar with the ins/outs of building a custom bike, and running the business. It's OK if you never fully understand the whole process but you should understand that any builder who stays in business is making a product and more importantly building a relationship that has value to the customer. Those who don't value that are free to make the decision to head to their LBS and buy whatever bike tickles their fancy.

I'd argue that if the economics of building a bike frame in your basement workshop are so tenuous that you take 7 months to deliver a product at a princely sum then perhaps you should be looking at another line of work, or relocating to Thailand or the like (paying yourself a correspondingly lower "living wage").

I don't think doing just anything makes anyone deserving of a living wage. Doing things that society does not deem to have enough productive value, ie scrounging for bottles to recycle from 8 AM-5 PM daily, should not entitle one to a middle class lifestyle just for the sheer effort. Hell, my brother in law has a masters in flute performance with the student loan debt to match yet his first flute orchestra position pays all of $17k/yr for his years of efforts.

Life isn't fair.

 

[CBJ]

The pricing is only ridiculous if people do not buy the bikes.

Or are you arguing that lower pricing would increase profit?

 

[Toshi]

The pricing is only ridiculous if people do not buy the bikes.

Or are you arguing that lower pricing would increase profit?

I think the level of tolerance among bike consumers is ridiculous and shows that the industry and peoples' expectations of it isn't mature. I exert my personal influence by not buying custom bikes, and state my opinion of all this on the internet. I'm not going to go boycotting custom builders, I'm just going to wave my flag in the lounge.

 

[gonefirefightin]

I think you get what you pay for and 30 days is reasonable for a custom frame

 

[Toshi]

I think you get what you pay for and 30 is reasonable for a custom frame

30 pesos? 30 Thai bahts?

 

[gonefirefightin]

30 pesos? 30 Thai bahts?

shipped!

 

[MMike]

I don't think doing just anything makes anyone deserving of a living wage. Doing things that society does not deem to have enough productive value, ie scrounging for bottles to recycle from 8 AM-5 PM daily, should not entitle one to a middle class lifestyle just for the sheer effort.

Life isn't fair.

Exactly. no-one DESERVES anything. Unless you're a communist.

But if you can convince people to pay you for your extra special, super-duper frame AND you at least deliver when you say you will deliver, then great.

My only gripe is being told that something will take 3 weeks, but ends up taking 3 months. Then that's just not being in control of your business.

 

[mandown]

Econ 101 - Price is deterined where the Supply and Demand curves cross. If I supply a bike to you for $10,000 and tell you it will take three months for my custom building, and you agree to it, then supply and demand have met.

Lying 101 - I tell you that you will have a fancy new bike in three months for $10,000, which you agree is a fair price for the goods I'm offering, then take six months to deliver the goods, or deliver goods other than what have been agreed upon, then I have lied to you.

Lying and economics somtimes meet, causing problems.

Nobody "deserves" a good living, though everyone deserves the right to be able to make a good living, if they see merit in undertaking the tasks that will allow them to reach the desired ends. If one-man-shop bike guy can't eek out the living he wants making the products he can and selling for the price he thinks will keep food on his plate, then he should look elsewhere. If he can charge more than he needs, and people will buy it, then nothing should stop him from charging the prices that he feels fit to charge. Of course, Econ 101 will moderate the pricing, which he can manipulate by utilizing Lying 101.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Christ, I can custom build you a 3500 sf house in 7 months.. No way it can take that long to bend a handfull of tubes and make a couple dozen welds.

 

[mandown]

Addendum - Economies of Scale:
For any given set of product, there are points where efficiencies of production and bulk purchase discounts will allow for larger operations to function in a more cost effective manor. If bike conglomerate can afford the cost of building and operating a factory, then they gain efficiencies that a custom shop can't match.

The item of value that gives the custom shop leverage to charge more is that the little guy can be flexy and make custom fabrications that the big shops can't do.


Of course, the idea that there is some fixed fee out there that should substatiate value is just silly. Just because it takes a guy 100 hours to build a bike and he thinks his time is worth $20 an hour doesn't mean that he has created a $2,000 bike. The market will ultimately decide the price.

 

[sanjuro]

I feel that buying a custom frame is ultimately purchasing artwork.

There are several good alternatives for a "semi-custom" frame, particularly Litespeed, which I know almost all riders would be satisfied with, including myself.

But there is special feeling knowing you have a bike designed by yourself intended for only one rider. And you also have the confidence you riding the best quality machine available.

I have bought several custom frames Seven Cycles and Independent Fabrications. I was very happy with all my purchases, from meeting the ETA to the finished product, and of course, my riding experience.

These two companies are in the select group of the largest custom builders, which includes Serotta and Moots. All of these companies have 30+ employees, and they run their businesses extremely well in a very competitive environment.

On the other extreme are builders like Richard Sachs. He is an one man show who builds 5-6 frames a month. His ETA for a customer is typically 2-3 years out. his quality is extremely high, of course, and his frame building style, steel lugged, has its audience.

Coming to the practical side of the business, obviously every company needs to be profitable to survive, but if people are willing to pay more for your product, you should charge them more.

Is a Picasso worth more than a painting I bought from street artist? The same amount of time and materials, but the art world puts a huge price tag on the Picasso.

The only thing I worry with the custom builders is meeting their promise dates, which is why I have only bought frames from the most successful companies.

 

[MMike]

I feel that buying a custom frame is ultimately purchasing artwork.

There are several good alternatives for a "semi-custom" frame, particularly Litespeed, which I know almost all riders would be satisfied with, including myself.

But there is special feeling knowing you have a bike designed by yourself intended for only one rider. And you also have the confidence you riding the best quality machine available.

I have bought several custom frames Seven Cycles and Independent Fabrications. I was very happy with all my purchases, from meeting the ETA to the finished product, and of course, my riding experience.

These two companies are in the select group of the largest custom builders, which includes Serotta and Moots. All of these companies have 30+ employees, and they run their businesses extremely well in a very competitive environment.

On the other extreme are builders like Richard Sachs. He is an one man show who builds 5-6 frames a month. His ETA for a customer is typically 2-3 years out. his quality is extremely high, of course, and his frame building style, steel lugged, has its audience.

Coming to the practical side of the business, obviously every company needs to be profitable to survive, but if people are willing to pay more for your product, you should charge them more.

Is a Picasso worth more than a painting I bought from street artist? The same amount of time and materials, but the art world puts a huge price tag on the Picasso.

The only thing I worry with the custom builders is meeting their promise dates, which is why I have only bought frames from the most successful companies.

I dispute that part.

SPend your money on whatever you want. But to say that something is of superior quality merely because it was "craft by an artisan"....that is untrue.

 

[mandown]

On the other extreme are builders like Richard Sachs. He is an one man show who builds 5-6 frames a month. His ETA for a customer is typically 2-3 years out. his quality is extremely high, of course, and his frame building style, steel lugged, has its audience.

He fails econ 101.

 

[was?]

no he doesn´t a sachs frame costs around 3000,-. expenses for materials, etc. should be 350,- to 500,-. if memory serves me right his waiting list is around two years, because there are enough who are gladly paying him for his skills. do the math...

 

[mandown]

if he carries two years of wait time despite cracking out a half-dozen a month, then he should boost his price and bank the profit.

he fails.

 

[N8 v2.0]

How many man-hours does it typically take to make a custom hardtail frame?

 

[N8 v2.0]

if he carries two years of wait time despite cracking out a half-dozen a month, then he should boost his price and bank the profit.

he fails.

Like Jeff Jones?

 

[Toshi]

I'm not against companies that have wait times or charge an arm or a leg. Hell, my trumpet maker of choice is that way in spades. The difference, as pointed out by others above, is he and his shop advertise openly that their wait time is 9-12 months so you know exactly what you're getting into. It's not a one-man operation that suffers from mysterious/inexplicable delays that each tag on extra weeks to a promised, much earlier delivery time.

Also, as MMike pointed out, I bet the professional welders in Taiwanese factories that crank out bikes (or the robots, I suppose) can lay down a bead as smooth and imperfection-free as a highly paid artisan in the US.

Buy a custom bike because it fits you better, because you like the color, because you want two seat tubes at 90 degrees from each other, because you want a built-in bottle opener a la Ibis, because you want to support your fellow citizens, or because you like brands with a certain cachet in order to match the rest of your oontzy lifestyle. Don't fool yourself into thinking that you're getting something materially different, in the most literal sense.

 

[mandown]

Like Jeff Jones?

i don't know Jeff Jones, but if he is undercharging for his frames, then he fails too.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Toshi... I dub thee Troll.

 

[Toshi]

Toshi... I dub thee Troll.

Do I win a prize for being surly and poking the bears?

/cuedhgirlienaked"bear"dudepic

 

[MMike]

Hell, my trumpet maker of choice is that way in spades.

ha ha....you have a trumpet maker. nerd.

 

[sanjuro]

I dispute that part.

SPend your money on whatever you want. But to say that something is of superior quality merely because it was "craft by an artisan"....that is untrue.

That's a good catch, but it is simply a confidence issue in the consumer's head.

Machine or handbuilt, QC is the king.

 

[Silver]

ha ha....you have a trumpet maker. nerd.

I wonder what he charges for a custom rusty trombone?

 

[Thylacine]

Okay, I'll briefly firstly explain our leadtimes which 90% of builds fall within, and then I'll explain why MikeD's took so long.

90% of our frame builds get delivered within the stated 8 weeks from sign-off. 2 weeks for materials acquisition and design drafting, 4 weeks for construction, 2 weeks for paint. This works for the vast majority of jobs, but if things are busy or if wholesalers are out of that special cable stop, or our painter is backlogged, that can collectively add anything up to 5 weeks. Sometimes more.

But generally, 8 weeks I think should be achievable and that's what I aim for. (Although currently with my primary job that of being 'Dad', I'll admit I'm struggling. It should really go up to 10 or 12.)

Now with MikeD's build, there were some exceptional extenuating circumstances. The primary ones being that the fabricator I use for some reason starts and finishes builds in the one hit only, so he didn't start anything startable while I d!cked around changing things. Secondly, we were waiting on what was happening with the new 44mm headtubes and tapered headsets, which were in the middle of being fleshed out behind the scenes during the build. Finally, there is also new True Temper tubes in the works that were supposed to be available 4 months ago that I wanted to use on this frame that still aren't available, so we could only wait so long before we have to go with 'Option B'. And finally, I should've managed it better by making the tough decisions sooner, which I didn't.

So, I hope that sheds some light, and I'm happy to answer any questions but I'm over talking about the process of Mikes bike. I'll let the bike do the talking from hereon in.

 

[boostindoubles]

fwiw, my friend who builds frames (link in my sig) told me yesterday that he makes about 25-30 bucks when he does an aluminum bmx frame. I assume, or hope, that he makes more when he does steel frames.

A frame builder needs to be realistic with wait time and up front about it if he expects to continue doing business. Unforeseen issues should be communicated as they arise. That way internet bitching can be avoided

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

There is a difference between something machine made and something made by hand.

Gorgeous craftsmanship


http://gallery.thylacinecycles.com/v/frames/IMGP0930sized.jpg.html

 

[Tanis]

fwiw, my friend who builds frames (link in my sig) told me yesterday that he makes about 25-30 bucks when he does an aluminum bmx frame. I assume, or hope, that he makes more when he does steel frames.

Oscar builds a solid bike

 

[Thylacine]

There is a difference between something machine made and something made by hand.

Gorgeous craftsmanship


http://gallery.thylacinecycles.com/v/frames/IMGP0930sized.jpg.html

And 5 years later, they look like Flickr Photo Download: Thy-PowellASLTi-02.jpg@@AMEPARAM@@http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2620/4000379832_376abeed7e_o_d.jpg@@AMEPARAM@@4000379832@@AMEPARAM@@376abeed7e_o

 

[valve bouncer]

The Grizzalator is a good bloke. Anyone who power chunders out my car's window is OK by me.
Toshi, Warwick isn't a flake. If he says the delay on Mike's bike is through no fault of his then I believe him.

 

[MMike]

There is a difference between something machine made and something made by hand.

Gorgeous craftsmanship


http://gallery.thylacinecycles.com/v/frames/IMGP0930sized.jpg.html

Which is defined as?

Robots and people and taiwan can weld like that too.

Again, I do not condemn anyone for wanting a custom bike. But don't walk around saying that it's inherently different or better than a trek or a specialized merely because it's "custom".

 

[MMike]

.....unless of course the frame building is walking his donkey 10 miles to the bauxite mine. Hand picking his bauxite....holding it up to the light....smelling it..... rubbing it on his cheek. Selecting only the finest bauxite....good enough for Juan Valdez. He then takes it back to his shop, refines it and heat-treats to his own special blend. Extrudes the tube and tempers it to the temper that his great great great grandfather used in the old country.

THEN it might be different.

 

[stevew]

well...vanilla's wait time is at five years now.....and they aren't taking orders.

 

[ire]

well...vanilla's wait time is at five years now.....and they aren't taking orders.

and Sacha's prices are damn high. While the prices may seem ridiculous (to me anyway) there is a market for it and people tolerate the wait times and hand over large sums of cash. I wanted a Vanilla purely for the look. I think the lugs/dropouts are beautiful, but I didn't want to pay $4k and wait 5 years.

 

[AngryMetalsmith]

Which is defined as?

Robots and people and taiwan can weld like that too.

Again, I do not condemn anyone for wanting a custom bike. But don't walk around saying that it's inherently different or better than a trek or a specialized merely because it's "custom".

The difference is something that is often difficult to articulate in words, especially to someone who views the world in terms of numbers, i.e., science and measurement. But I'll give it a shot.

What draws people to a hand made item verses a machine made one is the subtle imperfections. Nothing hand made is ever machine perfect and will inherently bear the marks of the makers touch. I think this is recognizable to some on a level that is outside mathematical comprehension. It's the same reason why there are some people whom you are inexplicably drawn to and repulsed by others. All things made by hand will reflect the subtleties of the individual who made it.

 

[sanjuro]

Which is defined as?

Robots and people and taiwan can weld like that too.

Again, I do not condemn anyone for wanting a custom bike. But don't walk around saying that it's inherently different or better than a trek or a specialized merely because it's "custom".

This goes back to the "Work Of Art" idea about custom frames.

Most people don't need a custom frame, but it satisfies a need for something better than your cookie-cutter bikes.

 

[MMike]

The difference is something that is often difficult to articulate in words, especially to someone who views the world in terms of numbers, i.e., science and measurement. But I'll give it a shot.

What draws people to a hand made item verses a machine made one is the subtle imperfections. Nothing hand made is ever machine perfect and will inherently bear the marks of the makers touch. I think this is recognizable to some on a level that is outside mathematical comprehension. It's the same reason why there are some people whom you are inexplicably drawn to and repulsed by others. All things made by hand will reflect the subtleties of the individual who made it.

I do understand and acknowledge that. Getting the custom frame is an emotional/personal thing. By no means do I dispute that. All I'm disputing is the assertion that a hand-built custom frame is somehow superior in its quality. Because it could be quite the opposite. I'm not saying it IS, but it could be.

Ever watched American Chopper? You ever see the screw ups they have to go back an repair? Custom work right there.

And as I do happen to work in the production metal fabrication business, (machining welding etc), I have witnessed first hand how "productionizing" a process does improve repeatabilty, and thus quality. Now a one of a kind custom bike frame is not a 100% fair comparison to what I do....but it's in the same ballpark.

All I'm saying is that a custom frame is about the IDEA of having the custom frame. The end product is all about the cachet or whatever you want to call it. It is not necessarily BETTER or higher quality because it's a one of a kind.

 

[Buck Fever]

I'm not against companies that have wait times or charge an arm or a leg. Hell, my trumpet maker of choice is that way in spades. The difference, as pointed out by others above, is he and his shop advertise openly that their wait time is 9-12 months so you know exactly what you're getting into. It's not a one-man operation that suffers from mysterious/inexplicable delays that each tag on extra weeks to a promised, much earlier delivery time.

Toshi, is your trumpet making essentially making a prototype every single time he builds a trumpet? Are the industry standard fitments of trumpets constantly changing? Does he/she have to constantly take time to develop and make new tooling to be able to build trumpets to the new standards? How flexible is your trumpet maker when it comes to adapting to new ideas or way in which he doesn't already make trumpets? Do you have any idea how diverse his raw material supply lines are and whether or not he experiences material acquisition problems because of 1. his size and purchasing power and 2. a depressed supply?

BTW, I think it's a good example and I'm honestly curious about the answers to those questions. As a frame builder, I'm CONSTANTLY making new tooling that will either make my job easier or in most cases, allow me to make a better finished product.

FWIW, in my own little niche part of this industry, raw material supply is a major issue. I'm not in a situation where I can buy a mill run of a specific tube size and I only plan 5-10 frames out when I'm purchasing materials (which is 25-50% of my yearly output) otherwise I find that I don't have enough working capital because I have too much inventory. I went for six months last year without being able to find a source for American made 1.25 x 0.035 tubing. Luckily it didn't impact my customers. I developed a headset this year that's being made by a big component manufacturer and was PROMISED that I'd have them in my hand in early May. I still don't have them and I have five bikes that are waiting for them. I still don't have a reliable source for the tubing I need to make the head tubes to utilize those headsets. I apparently bought the last existing 5ft of it back in Feb and now it's all spoken for. The point is, that I (we builders?) can plan all we want, attempt to forecast need at a reasonable time and most of the time we don't have the power to control enough of the process that delays won't happen. There are too many variables. We're such a small part of the bike industry that to most vendors we have absolutely no value. I can't tell you how many vendors won't return my calls because they know I'm only buying one of something. Unfortunately a lot of them are sole source and I literally spend hours a week and sometimes each day ringing their phones in the chance that I'll catch them in between calls and they'll answer. Even then, I have to hope that they'll fill the order and I don't start my harassment cycle all over again. For us little guys, it's a big system and despite our best intentions for our customers, we're overlooked and then it reflects poorly on us.

That's not to say we don't make mistakes, because we all do. I think it's our responsibility to own every mistake, even when they're not ours and do everything in our power to make it right with the customer.

 

[boostindoubles]

All I'm saying is that a custom frame is about the IDEA of having the custom frame. The end product is all about the cachet or whatever you want to call it. It is not necessarily BETTER or higher quality because it's a one of a kind.

I suppose some people choose custom cause it's 'cool' or whatever your trying to say. But it's not the only reason someone orders a one-off bicycle frame. Watching my friend build bikes for the last ten years I have seen all kinds of people order all kinds of bikes. One guy was 6'7" and couldn't ever find a frame that fit him- another guy wanted a specific style sand bike with balloon tires.

You make a narrow argument for why someone would purchase a custom frame and forget that sometimes it's the only option for specific needs or ideas.

 

[MMike]

Ok fine....I was ignoring the circus freaks....

But I used to hang out with a guy in Seattle (pro DHer) who was 6'5" and he would only buy "off the rack"