[dhkid]

i am slowly chainging my bike into a full blown dh bike (bullit,fox 40, dhx, m4 ect) and one of the things left to change is the frame so,i just want to do some research/gain more info about dh frames. whats good whats not for what kinda riding style and terrain. there seems to be loads of hype around some of the new bikes. so, i am wondering how the older style bikes (single pivots) compare to the newer designs (dw)? i know that a single pivot is really light (223/gemini),so is linkages like the dw and vpp worth the extra weight? also, most of these bikes are designed for high speed tracks, so how do they handle tight tech sections at slower speed?

hopefully this tread wont end up with loads of flaming.

-adam

 

[PatBranch]

Good question. I know that a low center of gravity is important; easier to rail berms, maybe you can slay slower and have more stability.

 

[black noise]

Well, a FSR, DW, or VPP bike can be as light as a single-pivot. DH frame weight is a range of about 5 pounds, so unless you're a pro who NEEDS a pound lighter frame, suck it up and ride what you have. Last season I did well racing DH on a stock BigHit Comp and a few weeks ago a guy beat me on a bike 5 pounds heavier than mine, so it's less about the bike than the rider.

Anyhoo, I know V10s (at least the old ones) are good at high speed, and the Demo 8 is an amazingly nimble bike that can handle low speed easily. Test ride some bikes if you can and then decide. Again, its more about you, so pick a frame that you can afford and get ahold of. After a certain point the DH frames don't differ a whole lot anyway.

 

[Transcend]

The key things with single pivots are their simplicity. There is 2 bearings on them to worry about and that is it. They can be made exceedingly stiff and light (a la 223) if you know what you are doing.

Altho many will argue weight doesn't matter in a Dh race (or even in a freeride bike), but as someone who weighs 145lbs, I can attest to the fact that it can make a dramatic difference. Being able to throw around the bike, pedal it harder and move it around obstacles is incredibly important. Sure, you can win on a 50lb bike no question, but the same rider can then win more easily on a 40lb bike.

Done wrong, a single pivot can be the worst bike ever created. Lots of flex, boatloads of chain feedback, badly tunes suspension etc.

Linkage bikes don't usually have the chain feedback issues as it can be tuned out, or simply does not occur (depends on design).

The downside is that they have many bearings/pivots/bushings that will become sloppy over time and need to be replaced. As you point out, they generally also are heavier due to the complexity of the designs.

 

[RaID]

the choice of bike also depends on the type of rider you are

some ppl prefare the plough over bike that just suck up everything eg V10

whereas others need a more nimble bike that can be thrown around the trail more easily
and provide more feedback to the rider eg turner DHR

plus look at the geometry of each of the frames and compare that to what kind of tracks youre going to be racing on
fast and open = more slackeer and longer geometry
slow tight and technical = steeper angles shorter geometry

i know at my local series races a full blown racing setup is not always needed because some courses are very tight and technical where you could equally do as well on a 5" travel bike as you can on a 8" DH machine

 

[dhkid]

Altho many will argue weight doesn't matter in a Dh race (or even in a freeride bike), but as someone who weighs 145lbs, I can attest to the fact that it can make a dramatic difference. Being able to throw around the bike, pedal it harder and move it around obstacles is incredibly important. Sure, you can win on a 50lb bike no question, but the same rider can then win more easily on a 40lb bike.

for me, it makes a big diff, i am 110 lbs with gear!

i agree that the rider makes a much bigger difference coz i live by that, i beat other riders with 7+ inches front and back in the tech sections all the time, but i lose out on fast pedaly sections. FYI: i ride a bullit with a psylo race and a fox float rear shox, it gives my 5.6 inches in the rear and 5 inches up front.

i would rather have a nimble bike than one that is designed around fast open courses.

 

[aidanwray]

and theres more to a single pivot bike than the obvious.

most single pivot bikes tend to run quite a low pivot point (223s etc.) , this eliminates quite abit of pedal bob etc and as much chain growth as possible.

however some single pivot bike run a very high pivot point (such as the PDCracing DH-1, check out www.pdcracing.com if you havent seen em) these bikes would typically suffer horrendously from pedal bob and chain growth, thats why a floating roller is fitted to the frame for chainline. a similar thing is done on bikes like the balfa BB7.

and agin with single pivot bikes, some are simply single pivot (like the 223) whereas bike like the PDCracing have a linkage activated shock.

 

[MikeD]

Hm, this is kind of the ultimate question that no one can really answer except with generalizations...designs are so dependent on the actual method of construction (linkage can be stouter than a single-pivot and vice-versa depending on how they're made) and various designs work better or worse for certain people/riding styles on certain terrain. And shock choice and setup can really affect it all, too. And suspension design is only part of the equation...frame geometry is as, if not more, important.

And the construction methods are getting so much more advanaced than they used to be, so that I don't think most linkage designs need 'more maintenance' than single-pivots, except when it comes time to replace bearings...then you need to replace 4 or 6 or 8 instead of 2, maybe once a year or two. Maybe a bolt-check every few rides, too, I suppose. But the days of breaking down your rear triangle to lube and tighten the bushings every few rides are over.

You have to ride a number of different suspensions and see what feels best to you, too...everyone's marketing hype says they're the best, so you're not going to get a lot out of it.

And if you're 110 lbs, stick with your Bullit. You've got growing to do, probably very soon. Wait to invest in a DH frame until you're not growing quite so much. A Bullit is a really capable frame.

Just keep riding and becoming a better rider...that's going to do a lot more for you in the long run than a new frame. Although it's not as sexy, it's true.

-MD

 

[lovebunny]

i agree with mike d on this one. i rode my bighit for a year even though it was too big for me and i leaned to get ok at stuff on it. just in december i upgraded to a balfa bb7 and i love the thing. if i were oyu i would wait a lil while. oh and when it comes to hihg end frames like sundays, or dhrs, etc. there all pretty much equal. its just a matter of wich one feels better to YOU

 

[aidanwray]

oh and when it comes to hihg end frames like sundays, or dhrs, etc. there all pretty much equal. its just a matter of wich one feels better to YOU

too true.
well said

 

[WheelieMan]

and theres more to a single pivot bike than the obvious.

most single pivot bikes tend to run quite a low pivot point (223s etc.) , this eliminates quite abit of pedal bob etc and as much chain growth as possible.

You must be thinking of a different bike because the 223 is notorious for its high-pivot causing chaingrowth.

As others have said, geometry is most important in choosing a dh bike. If you are not comfortable with the geometry of a frame on the terrain you ride, you will ride like crap, no matter what suspension design it is.

Also, there is no "holy grail" of downhill frame design. Frame design is a game of compromises. No matter how much a manufacturer tries to claim that their design is best, it WILL be compromising something (weight, pedaling efficiency, wheelpath shape, bump absorbing ability, stiffness, durability, etc...) in order to achieve what it does well.

edit: woops, forgot braking performance

 

[AusRottenVirus]

I love my M1 with FSR design. The VPP works similar but with a different wheel path. i have no experience with the DW design but i like it sounds like it works very well. I rode a Gemini last year and switching to an FSR design has made a huge difference for me. Obviously different bikes suit other poeples strengths and weaknesses like Peaty riding a super light 223 without a floating break arm because he is so smooth he doesn't need the extra strength. With so many options you should ride everything you can get your hands on and see what works best for you.

 

[dhkid]

i am not really getting a frame really soon because i am kinda broke, but i sort of wanted to find out what bikes will worth looking into and what not to. i live in malaysia, and there are not many people riding anything other than a santa cruz or a kona. so getting a chance to test ride other bikes nearly zero. i still love my bullit, even with the air fork and shox, i haven't got a ride on it yet with the dhx and the 40. i am hoping its going to be really sweet. but then wonder how much better full blown dh bikes are like. for one, i have test riden a v-10, the old one and the new on, its too much of a dead feeling for me and way too heavy.

 

[bballe336]

Also, there is no "holy grail" of downhill frame design. Frame design is a game of compromises. No matter how much a manufacturer tries to claim that their design is best, it WILL be compromising something (weight, pedaling efficiency, wheelpath shape, bump absorbing ability, stiffness, durability, etc...) in order to achieve what it does well.

edit: woops, forgot braking performance

i would have to agree all the way. every bike has its flaws. but every (well almost every) bike has its strong points too.

 

[go-ride.com]

Upgrading your Bullit is a good way to start, but it does have one big negative. The Bullit (with the correct length shock to get the full 7.0" of travel) and an 8" travel fork with have about at least a 15" BB height. That's really tall for a 7" travel DH race bike. I would also guess that at 110 lbs., you are probably about 5'0" tall. Your height combined with a tall BB bike, won't be so good for racing. I'd recommend staying with a 7" fork. Something like a Jr. T with a Super T upgrade cartridge or if you want to spend $ an 888 170mm with Lowrider crowns.

The other thing I would stay away from is buying a really expensive wheel set. The odds are that what ever rear hub you buy will not fit on most of the current crop of good DH bikes.

 

[lovebunny]

like Peaty riding a super light 223 without a floating break arm because he is so smooth he doesn't need the extra strength.

floaters dont add strenth, they stop brake jack

 

[dhkid]

too late, the fox 40 is already on my bike right now. but i am running the fork at 6.5 inches. as for the hubs and stuff, i am using hope xc ti hubs. its not really a waiste of money coz i have been using the bike for 2 years now whit that set up. i was 4'9 when i got the bike, but now i am 5'4. and i will be running the shox at the lower position on the shox mounting thing, lowering the bb slightly.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

When you get the money, buy one of the new Rotec RL 9's! By the time you save the money for a new frame they should be in production. It has a Lawill concentric pivot suspension design. The fully floating rear swingarm is just about the coolest thing out there. The concentric pivot completely eliminates chain growth, pedal bob, and the wheelpath is perfect for DH racing (no slowing over bumps). It comes with a floating rear brake, rear axel, and an integrated Hopey steering damper mount (it Roxorz!!), not to mention the 5th element shock. Slap that Fox 40 on there and you have one bad a$$ dh machine that will be perfect for your size. One of the pros that's racing the prototype is just a little bigger than you, and he's riding a large (yes it is too big, but not by much he says). Check it out, just go to the website....roteccycles and you can see a pretty cool pic of it!! or search for it on this website....someone posted photos of the prototype in a thread somewhere.....Werd!!

Live fast, Live hard, or go live with your parents....

 

[lovebunny]

right. arent rotecs like 30 ft long though?

 

[Secret Squirrel]

My '02 has a 48" wheelbase (maybe a little longer even)!!! But I'm 6'7" and 260 w/ gear...so it works out well...But the new '05 is significantly shorter!! It's around 44" or 45" with an 8" Triple 8 on it... The chainstays are shorter and there's no moto-link, like on my bike, to elongate anything. So it's just about as long as an M1 or an M3....I can't wait to get my grubby little (o.k.....big) hands on it!!! From talking with the pro riding it right now, he says "The damn thing flys, and I barely have to do anything!" w00t!!!

 

[OGRipper]

Well like others have said this is a tough set of questions and you will get all kinds of answers. For the moment your setup sounds pretty good. I wouldn't drop too much cash until you stop growing. As between single pivots and linkage bikes, there are pros and cons. SP bikes are simple, often a little lighter, and usually less expensive, and can work great especially with a good shock. But they are limited with respect to axle path and shock rate, unless there's a shock linkage in there too (like a turner). Multi-link bikes like FSR and VPP allow some tuning of axle path and shock rate which can help achieve the best balance of pedaling, weight transfer, and braking performance. IMO bikes like the VPP and DW are generally stiffer in the rear end as well. A rigid rear triangle connected by short, stout links will track better than the beefiest single pivot (or FSR, for that matter), at least in my experience. But since you are so light I don't think stiffness will be that much of an issue. Hmmm, I'd say just keep on riding and reading up on things, when the time comes you'll be ready.

 

[John Sullivan`]

I usually stay away from chatting for fear of being Stoned by the masses for spamming which is abit un-nerving at times as I must correct incorrect information given by less informed indviduals, which is cool. But I feel that as an industry guy I must do what's right for the well being of the company and that would be to offer correct information regarding our product or just plain BS'ing bout bike stuff.

So don't huck those stones........

Anyway whats crazy is that some refuse to except the fact that many industry insiders use the internet to do research, ask questions and gather concerns.
All this searching helps develop and improve product for the general masses.....thats all you monkeys btw.

I know from first hand experince how frustrating it is to be involved with the public on the web as do many insiders (industry folks) and its a crying shame that we are reluctent (industry folks) to partake in what we love and thats chattin bout cycling and our rides!

I understand the whole concept of no sales pitch's when trying to inform the masses but sometimes just because you own the company and you ride your own gear, its abit of a bummer when you don't feel uncomfortable talking about what we love to ride and thats without the pricing or the pitch.

Thats my 2-cents as an industry guy and a fellow Monkey.

Well on to why I've responded:

Hey there Lovebunny FYI the 2005 Rotec RL9 comes in 3 sizes, the large is 45.9 with a 888 or Fox 40. The medium is an shorter and so on.

Same goes for the standover, 30 inch for the large, 29 for the med and 28 for the small and top tubes start at 20 thru 22 for the large.

And the ever important chainstay is 17.20!!! not 18+ like on the older pre-2001 models.

Remember, this is a 9 inch travel hi-end hi-speed gravity machine not a toy!

The older pre 2001 moto-link, like Secret Squirrel's are the longer ones though not quite 30 feet as you said..... but I remember back in the day it sure felt like it on somedays!

Gotta get folks off the whole notion that the new rotecs are looong which is NOT correct. They have very similar dimensions to many DH frames that are considered standard in the industry today.

Its just a matter of informing the masses when nessesary.

Regards,

 

[Transcend]

Is it just me, or is it somewhat ironic, that a 100lb kid (presumably kid anyways) from Malaysia, has some of the most coherent, well throught out and useful posts as of late?

Good job, kid. Also, keep the bullit until you stop growing.

 

[John Sullivan`]

I have to go with Transcend on this one fer sure,

dhkid, keep your SC its a great rig....and as long as you're still growing
its a smart move to just stay put as you'll find youself chasing the size issue with an open wallet till you stop growing!

 

[MikeD]

Is it just me, or is it somewhat ironic, that a 100lb kid (presumably kid anyways) from Malaysia, has some of the most coherent, well throught out and useful posts as of late?

Good job, kid. Also, keep the bullit until you stop growing.

You know, though, he could have been blasted with "run a search, newb!" from the very beginning. And while it's good advice, I'm glad to see we've spurred a reasonable discussion on this stuff without setting a hostile tone.

Still, I think a tech archive with frame threads, brake threads, whatever, would go a long way towards making this info easy to find...

And yeah, nice to see some coherent thoughts from a younger poster...who should indeed keep his Bullit and just ride it till it falls apart.

MD

 

[Transcend]

You know, though, he could have been blasted with "run a search, newb!" from the very beginning. And while it's good advice, I'm glad to see we've spurred a reasonable discussion on this stuff without setting a hostile tone.

MD

Personally, I would think it was because he provided a little more information then : "I'm getting a karpiel, is it good fo' rizeal?"

Ask a coherent question, get a coherent answer...

 

[Secret Squirrel]

mmmmm....45.9.....for a large......ggaaaaahhhh..... Ok, back to work...damn it.......stupid parents had to feed me all those steroids and made me drink too much milk.....son of a !!!!! Well, it'll be money and time well spent.

Word to those who post intelligent, helpful comments. Peace

P.S. Sully's a chimp!!! hahahahahahahahaha......I find that funny for some odd reason..?!?!?! hmmm.....

 

[lovebunny]

I usually stay away from chatting for fear of being Stoned by the masses for spamming which is abit un-nerving at times as I must correct incorrect information given by less informed indviduals, which is cool. But I feel that as an industry guy I must do what's right for the well being of the company and that would be to offer correct information regarding our product or just plain BS'ing bout bike stuff.

So don't huck those stones........

Anyway whats crazy is that some refuse to except the fact that many industry insiders use the internet to do research, ask questions and gather concerns.
All this searching helps develop and improve product for the general masses.....thats all you monkeys btw.

I know from first hand experince how frustrating it is to be involved with the public on the web as do many insiders (industry folks) and its a crying shame that we are reluctent (industry folks) to partake in what we love and thats chattin bout cycling and our rides!

I understand the whole concept of no sales pitch's when trying to inform the masses but sometimes just because you own the company and you ride your own gear, its abit of a bummer when you don't feel uncomfortable talking about what we love to ride and thats without the pricing or the pitch.

Thats my 2-cents as an industry guy and a fellow Monkey.

Well on to why I've responded:

Hey there Lovebunny FYI the 2005 Rotec RL9 comes in 3 sizes, the large is 45.9 with a 888 or Fox 40. The medium is an shorter and so on.

Same goes for the standover, 30 inch for the large, 29 for the med and 28 for the small and top tubes start at 20 thru 22 for the large.

And the ever important chainstay is 17.20!!! not 18+ like on the older pre-2001 models.

Remember, this is a 9 inch travel hi-end hi-speed gravity machine not a toy!

The older pre 2001 moto-link, like Secret Squirrel's are the longer ones though not quite 30 feet as you said..... but I remember back in the day it sure felt like it on somedays!

Gotta get folks off the whole notion that the new rotecs are looong which is NOT correct. They have very similar dimensions to many DH frames that are considered standard in the industry today.

Its just a matter of informing the masses when nessesary.

Regards,

awesome thanks for correcting me. i didnt know that the new ones were shorter. wow those are really short. my bb7 is like 47.75

 

[dhkid]

Is it just me, or is it somewhat ironic, that a 100lb kid (presumably kid anyways) from Malaysia, has some of the most coherent, well throught out and useful posts as of late?

Good job, kid. Also, keep the bullit until you stop growing.

thanks, i am really flattered. yea, i am a kid, turning 17 this year. i kinda got sick of pinkbike and its stupid answers, so before i joined rm, i kept anything that is worth asking to my self coz i knew i probably would end getting a stupid question about my qestion. ie: whats a pump track? :angry: so when i joined rm, i just posted everything that i had in mind. knowing i would get decent answers form a bunch of decent ppl. thanks you guys for not ending up flaming ppl and just saying do a serch newbie!
rm is the bomb!

edit: i will be keeping my bullit untill it falls apart (but i think i will fall apart way before the bullit will show any signs of doing so) or its way to small for me, but its always nice to keep an eye on whats going on in the industry.

 

[bullit_boxxer]

yeaaa keep ur bullit...the bullit gang cant lose another 1...only a few bullit riders left.hahah
ne ways are u racing next weekend in KL? u gonna have the dhx by then?

 

[dhkid]

yeaaa keep ur bullit...the bullit gang cant lose another 1...only a few bullit riders left.hahah
ne ways are u racing next weekend in KL? u gonna have the dhx by then?

yea.. i will be racing, even if i still got the float in the rear. its going to be danm funny looking but i just want to race.... gary is "trying" as hard as he can to get the dhx and the 203 mm rotor for me but still nothing. dont worry, i dont think you will losing me anytime soon, first of all, i am broke form the new upgrades, secondly, i think you will be changing over sooner than me anyways

 

[snowskilz]

I went through
02 IH SGS
03 V10
03 IH SGS FR

Before i got my mono. Now i dont care to dh on anything else. It is all personall preference. Try out a couple bikes see what you like, go to demo days(if they have them there) and see what you like.

I personally never wanted a mono, too pricey, darn fangled single pivot. But i rode one and it was the bike for me.

 

[dhkid]

Try out a couple bikes see what you like, go to demo days(if they have them there) and see what you like.

yea, thats a problem, no demo days. and riders here generally ride santa cruz or kona. there is the odd giant, da-bomb, intense and cannondale. but the riders are form all over the country, so you only get to see them at the races, so not much chance of a test ride. :mumble:

 

[tacobelldhr]

dhr turner

 

[ChrisRobin]

Like everyone else said...keep the Bullit for a while and when you do get another frame, try to keep the Bullit with light parts. Hey, you never know when you'll want to rip around on a smaller FR bike.

When it comes to preferences it's amazing how everyone has different takes on everything. As for me, single pivots versus linkage bikes...I don't necessarily mind. When it comes down to is how the suspension works. After riding for a few years and on different bikes, you get to know your own style and habits. I'm one of those heavier guys (200lbs with gear now) that tends to be a little sloppy. So, the suspension has to be setup in a way where I get all my travel fast except right at the end. Either way, you can get those results nowadays because of all the new shock/fork/frame-technology out there. Currently I'm on a Nicolai frame that's fairly heavy. With the way I have it setup, I like it and I don't plan on changing it anytime soon. Would I like a lighter frame??? Sure! Although I can muscle my bike around fairly easily the way it is.