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Dirt issue 81 letters. (trek 88 review)

B

brian field

Monkey
Feb 5, 2007
100
0
So, Steve jones explained why he compared trek to his orange, then he explained how bikes have different geometry... ok we all know that, but comment that he made for sunday: ''The sunday is a great bike, but it doesn't have a brilliant suspension, it's definetly not the plushest eight inch bike and it's pretty eager to use the first part of its travel...'' and then for commencal he wrote:'' The new commencal is an exceptional bike with very good suspension design, the contact system is possibly the best link system of any bike currently available...''
To me it all sound very contrary, knowing that sunday (dw link) has much better caracteristics then single pivot ( linked or not)....
What do you guys think?
 
primo661

primo661

Monkey
Jun 16, 2008
412
0
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
If it was really that much better, everyone would be re badging sunday frames like haro and others did with intense m1's a few years ago. Its really not that much of a step above the rest and if it is then how many races did Sam win on skill and how many did the bike win? I like to think Sam won them on skill.
No matter what Iron Horse, Intense, Santa Cruz and the others tell you about how inferior single pivots are compared to virtual pivot bikes, the simple fact is that well made single pivots are just as good as a virtual pivot bikes. I think Gee proved that this year, as did Cole Bangert did last year(US national champ) and hundreds of other racers who ride single pivots(Turner, Morewood etc.) and actually prefer them to their sundays or m6's that they came off. Im not saying single pivot is a better design, but I am saying it is very much a matter of preference and dependant on riding style as to which one you like more.
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,371
1,609
Warsaw :/
brian field said:
So, Steve jones explained why he compared trek to his orange, then he explained how bikes have different geometry... ok we all know that, but comment that he made for sunday: ''The sunday is a great bike, but it doesn't have a brilliant suspension, it's definetly not the plushest eight inch bike and it's pretty eager to use the first part of its travel...'' and then for commencal he wrote:'' The new commencal is an exceptional bike with very good suspension design, the contact system is possibly the best link system of any bike currently available...''
To me it all sound very contrary, knowing that sunday (dw link) has much better caracteristics then single pivot ( linked or not)....
What do you guys think?
Click to expand...
Acualy some designers stated that it's easier to design a SP susp with a desired characteristic than it is in case of VP desing. If VPs were really that inferior all companies would switch by now to vp. Even if some would not have the $$ for the big patented stuff they could design their own so that it wouldn't infringe any patents (ie. like zumbi which is a very small company).
It's rather that every system has it's own pros and cons.

Also from what I saw ppl realy give the new supreme dh great reviews and because of that fact (plus that I have 40% lower price on that than on the comp) I'm seriously considering it. If only they ditched the roco...
 
karpi

karpi

Monkey
Apr 17, 2006
904
0
Santiasco, Chile
I´d have to say I agree with steve about the suspension on the sunday. All that have ridden them would tend to agree that those 8 inches of travel go away pretty fast and aren't very progresive. I think Steve isnt very keen on linear rate suspension. I know DW´s site says something different about the sunday... but less face facts, it doesnt feel like that. On the commencal I wouldnt know, but it is a good bicycle from what I have heard, no complains.
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
Reviews are subject to setup, at one point in time, Steve LOVED the Sunday for it's suspension.

The Sunday was designed to use a shock with some end travel ramp. When I designed the chassis, the en-vogue shock was the Progressive 5th element. Due to a team agreement, I had to make the suspension work with that shock. The 5th element shock had a LOT of end travel ramp, so the suspension was designed to accommodate that. THen the DHX came. It has less end travel ramp than a 5th, but still some. On a DHX, that means making the boost chamber as small as possible, and using 110+ psi of air. If you don't do that, then you are going to use more of your travel. I know what this feels like on the bike, and it feels EXACTLY like how it is described. The Sunday's suspension is setup specific, like any bike. This is why there is a 50 page thread up at the top of Ridemonkey on the subject.

Steve is a friend of mine, and I like him a lot. He's a top notch guy, even if we don't always have the same tastes in or opinions how suspension should function in order to get down the hill fastest.

So far the Sundays have proven pretty good in the hands of pros and amateur riders, but keep in mind, the bike was designed 6 years ago. I had new ideas, ideas on things that I wanted to improve on the bike before a Sunday was ever sold, and you know what? I have ideas on things that I would like to improve on every product I've ever worked on. That's what it's like to be me. Constant improvement, constant thinking. Reviews don't hurt my feelings, but its nice when someone appreciates your work.

The new Turner DHR has everything that was learned over those last 6 years incorporated into it. The DHR has a significant amount of progression designed into the linkage compared to the Sunday, perhaps Jonesy will love it. Perhaps he will not. Either way, it's OK. We will still be friends.
 
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D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
primo661 said:
If it was really that much better, everyone would be re badging sunday frames like haro and others did with intense m1's a few years ago.
Click to expand...
Have you gone to any World Cups or National events over the last 3 years? It is amazing how many teams re-badged Sundays or just bought them as their race bikes. In some cases 30-40% of the field was on them. Seplavy can chime in on that, he actually counted...
 
D

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,943
0
MV
jonKranked said:
For some reason this gave me the mental image of Todd running around the pits with a clipboard. :rofl:
Click to expand...
Heh, pretty much that was it. He would sit at the finish line and count bike, noting the make and model of every frame, tires, and shock/fork combo that crossed the line...
 
B

b-b00gie

Chimp
Dec 1, 2003
67
0
dw said:
Reviews are subject to setup, at one point in time, Steve LOVED the Sunday for it's suspension.

The Sunday was designed to use a shock with some end travel ramp. When I designed the chassis, the en-vogue shock was the Progressive 5th element. Due to a team agreement, I had to make the suspension work with that shock. The 5th element shock had a LOT of end travel ramp, so the suspension was designed to accommodate that. THen the DHX came. It has less end travel ramp than a 5th, but still some. On a DHX, that means making the boost chamber as small as possible, and using 110+ psi of air. If you don't do that, then you are going to use more of your travel. I know what this feels like on the bike, and it feels EXACTLY like how it is described. The Sunday's suspension is setup specific, like any bike. This is why there is a 50 page thread up at the top of Ridemonkey on the subject.

Steve is a friend of mine, and I like him a lot. He's a top notch guy, even if we don't always have the same tastes in or opinions how suspension should function in order to get down the hill fastest.

So far the Sundays have proven pretty good in the hands of pros and amateur riders, but keep in mind, the bike was designed 6 years ago. I had new ideas, ideas on things that I wanted to improve on the bike before a Sunday was ever sold, and you know what? I have ideas on things that I would like to improve on every product I've ever worked on. That's what it's like to be me. Constant improvement, constant thinking. Reviews don't hurt my feelings, but its nice when someone appreciates your work.

The new Turner DHR has everything that was learned over those last 6 years incorporated into it. The DHR has a significant amount of progression designed into the linkage compared to the Sunday, perhaps Jonesy will love it. Perhaps he will not. Either way, it's OK. We will still be friends.
Click to expand...

If I was Dave Weagle, I couldn't have said it better myself. :brows:
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
86,049
24,576
media blackout
dw said:
Heh, pretty much that was it. He would sit at the finish line and count bike, noting the make and model of every frame, tires, and shock/fork combo that crossed the line...
Click to expand...
haha and all this time I thought he actually did important stuff, when in reality he was just a gopher. :rofl:




**please note, these comments are made in jest**
 
L

luiz carlos

Monkey
Apr 15, 2002
687
0
Brazil-Rio de Janeiro
dw said:
The new Turner DHR has everything that was learned over those last 6 years incorporated into it. The DHR has a significant amount of progression designed into the linkage compared to the Sunday, perhaps Jonesy will love it.
Click to expand...
I'm just curious if the new Turner DHR will be on next season World Cup circuit with a fast rider. Like was in 2004 with Hill.
 
JCL

JCL

Monkey
Aug 31, 2008
696
0
dw said:
but keep in mind, the bike was designed 6 years ago. I had new ideas, ideas on things that I wanted to improve on the bike before a Sunday was ever sold,
Click to expand...
Like split pivot :brows:
 
G

General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
dw said:
Heh, pretty much that was it. He would sit at the finish line and count bike, noting the make and model of every frame, tires, and shock/fork combo that crossed the line...
Click to expand...
He did indeed, I helped double check his math. At the '07 Ste. Anne WC something like 27 of the 80 riders in the final were on Sundays. Of the 165 riders who tried to qualify, the percentage was even higher. The promo video Lucent Productions made for the IH website was meant to highlite all the IH riders at the event, but not all of them could be inculded; there were just too many.

The Sunday was/is an awesome bike, but like DW said, it has been around for 6 years in one form or another and it is due for a bit of refining. I love mine, but that doesn't mean i can't find a few areas that could be improved (suspension and geometry come to mind). A mistake some people make is interpreting a critique of one of the best bikes ever produced as somehow being a negative review; no bike is ever going to be perfect. But as the 'next generation' of the proven DW-Link concept, if the DHR is an improvement on the Sunday it might just be the new modern benchmark much like its predicesor was in '4/05 (just as long as they ditch the kawasaki green).
 
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Cant Climb

Cant Climb

Turbo Monkey
May 9, 2004
2,683
10
sanjuro said:
Sorry, but who is Steve Jones?
Click to expand...
DirtMag writer, not sure if he is an editor or not.....former WC rider...
Has done extremely well at MegaAvalanche (top 20? out of the thousands that enter that race)...

Probably faster than 99.9% of the DirtMag readers.......

* hoping for a free subscription *
 
karpi

karpi

Monkey
Apr 17, 2006
904
0
Santiasco, Chile
dw said:
Reviews are subject to setup, at one point in time, Steve LOVED the Sunday for it's suspension.

The Sunday was designed to use a shock with some end travel ramp. When I designed the chassis, the en-vogue shock was the Progressive 5th element. Due to a team agreement, I had to make the suspension work with that shock. The 5th element shock had a LOT of end travel ramp, so the suspension was designed to accommodate that. THen the DHX came. It has less end travel ramp than a 5th, but still some. On a DHX, that means making the boost chamber as small as possible, and using 110+ psi of air. If you don't do that, then you are going to use more of your travel. I know what this feels like on the bike, and it feels EXACTLY like how it is described. The Sunday's suspension is setup specific, like any bike. This is why there is a 50 page thread up at the top of Ridemonkey on the subject.

Steve is a friend of mine, and I like him a lot. He's a top notch guy, even if we don't always have the same tastes in or opinions how suspension should function in order to get down the hill fastest.

So far the Sundays have proven pretty good in the hands of pros and amateur riders, but keep in mind, the bike was designed 6 years ago. I had new ideas, ideas on things that I wanted to improve on the bike before a Sunday was ever sold, and you know what? I have ideas on things that I would like to improve on every product I've ever worked on. That's what it's like to be me. Constant improvement, constant thinking. Reviews don't hurt my feelings, but its nice when someone appreciates your work.

The new Turner DHR has everything that was learned over those last 6 years incorporated into it. The DHR has a significant amount of progression designed into the linkage compared to the Sunday, perhaps Jonesy will love it. Perhaps he will not. Either way, it's OK. We will still be friends.
Click to expand...
great answer Dave, I have no doubt that the new DHR will be a hit. I guess people down here havent set up theirs sundays correctly. What I do love about it is the geometry and how strong they are, havent had any broken ones here. I hope that stays the same on turner! cheers!
 
BigHitComp04

BigHitComp04

Monkey
Jun 20, 2005
586
3
Morgantown, WV
Cant Climb said:
DirtMag writer, not sure if he is an editor or not.....former WC rider...
Has done extremely well at MegaAvalanche (top 20? out of the thousands that enter that race)...

Probably faster than 99.9% of the DirtMag readers.......

* hoping for a free subscription *
Click to expand...
Indeed. Hes the dude in a lot of the Earthed films, Earthed 5 especially, filming/following Sam on the 1:04 track.
 
M

MDJ

Monkey
Dec 15, 2005
669
0
San Jose, CA
I think it's all a brilliant marketing tactic by DW. Get the leading magazine editor (his friend) to bash the old bike just as the DW link moves to the new bike. Now everyone will feel their Sundays are inferior and order up a new Turner.

:clapping:





...easy, just kidding guys
 
ska todd

ska todd

Turbo Monkey
Oct 10, 2001
1,776
0
Yep, for a couple World Cups, the US Open, Nat Champs, Worlds I would sit there and record every rider and some of the basics of what they were running. At some of the races the numbers were in the 30-40% range IIRC. The large majority of the riders paid for their bikes too. For Rotorua I send down something like 15 or 17 custom gold Sundays and still I missed a few riders.

The other thing to remember was that when the Sunday was designed the DHX wasn't around yet and the Vanilla RX wasn't available in 9.5". Dave and I had originally planned for a full Sunday revision for 2008. Things changed though internally and with direction and commitment from ownership. Oh, well. We've all moved on in life to what is shaping up to be bigger and better things.

As for Jonesey, well he is an odd duck ;) But, he has a heart of gold and is crazy fast and has a ton of intuition about what he is riding. You have to strain whatever he says thru his Welsh-o-meter but if you read between the lines and have read his other reviews or commentary you know the direction and thought processes behind what he writing.

-ska todd
 
Carnaza

Carnaza

Monkey
Aug 10, 2006
243
0
Santiago, Chile
karpi said:
great answer Dave, I have no doubt that the new DHR will be a hit. I guess people down here havent set up theirs sundays correctly. What I do love about it is the geometry and how strong they are, havent had any broken ones here. I hope that stays the same on turner! cheers!
Click to expand...
i second that¡¡

i had have 2 sundays in the last 3 season... and to be honest when i had the first one (06 team) the suspension felt pretty soft... and all the problem was the spring.... 300 lbs was too soft for my weight..

as soon as i got the 400 lbs and used 120 psi in the shock... the suspension was way better ....


so karpi... try my sunday again... you told me you liked it ¡¡¡
 
mgy

mgy

Monkey
Apr 4, 2002
128
16
Morrison
dw said:
Reviews are subject to setup
Click to expand...
Everyone please listen to Dave here! This is why I think on dirt demo at interbike can do as much harm as good for a bike company. One of my students had a new dh bike (I won't mention the name because the company is likely infringing on DW's patents) that the factory mechanic had set up perfectly for his weight (he was a reporter for the NY Times and had an in at the company). He weighed the same as me andf let me ride the bike after the camp. I was impressed, it rode really well. Six months later at interbike a shop owner I know asked me test ride the same model bike. A couple of his employees had ridden the bike and said it rode like crap and he wanted one more opinion. So I checked it out (and a mechanic "set it up for my weight") and I took it for a spin. His employees were right it rode like crap on my first run. Scratching my head and wondering why I check out the rear shock. It was under sprung for my weight so the mechanic had cranked the compression damping. I back off the compression dampening and took another run. Although now the shock was way to soft I got a better idea of how the suspension worked. Had I not ridden the bike set up correctly my review would of been the bike sucks when actually it is quite good.

A lot of thing effect suspension performance, weight, high and low speed rebound and compression setting, terrain and speed. I have a Cane Creek double barrel this year and could fine tune it to a race course.

The moral of the story, take bike reviews with a grain of salt, even your own!
 
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