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Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Keyth, Sep 5, 2008.
Fvcking christ.....the music...
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No, 2 strokes and 4 strokes should be running the same cc range , 250>250 500>450
Got my lady riding yesterday.
I ride a KTM 250 XC-F and love it. It's the closest thing to downhilling that I can do at home. God I love that bike. Tons of pull out of the corners and light enough to really throw around.
I have a 250 SX-F and wish I got your bike. I'd rather be in the woods than on a track with 20 skilled, cocky, 12 year olds with their parents grooming them for factory rides.
I ride/race tracks and trails with my 250SX-F. No problem trail riding with it since you have the 6 speed tranny. Even with the 12T up front and a 50T on the rear I can go 65 mph according to my GPS. That's fast enough for most trails around here. The only time I have been top'd out was at one Harescramble that had a retarded high speed section (nothing like 300 guys going WFO down a narrow 2 track) and on the road (if that was legal I should say).
You are missing the magic button though.
Tip of the day on that bike though, check the frame welds near the shock. We had to repair mine on Saturday. Other than that, my bike has been awesome. I have 200 hours on it. We changed the piston at 100 hours and just changed the piston and intake valves at 200 hours. Pretty good when you consider that Honda, Kaw, Suz need that done about ever 20 hours. Keep in mind that these hours are at racing conditions, ie 13,000 rpm. That's like trying to daily drive a F1 car.
Might want to try a ktm 200 if you want to get closer to the dh feel
The big 3 would never allow that. Honda layed the smack down on racing organizations about their great new 4 strokes. A 250 2 vs a 250 4 is no match.
Same rig I am rolling!
Look at the lap times between the 250fs and 450fs are usually a second or two apart. Some guys are even faster like Ryan Villopoto winning the open class at MXDN. HP only helps if you can tap into it more.
The Service Honda CR 500s rock. Most of late model CR 500s were more like a 450f. I owned one. The later models post 1990 made a ton of torque at the lower rpms and signed off at the upper rpms. The 85-87 500s were like a 250 two stroke making tons of peak power on the mid and top end. They were so violent that only a few pro riders could tap into the full powerband. Ultimately they mellowed them out and made the power curve more managable. It doesn't make sense to make a bike with so much peak hp that nobody can ride to it's full potential. Most people can't ride a 125 to it's full potential anyways. (if you ever seen James Stewart on a 125 then you know what this means)
Like profro said you should look at getting a used two-stroke. Everyone now wants a 4-stroke because it is the latest and greatest technology but they are a bit pricey to maintain. I got a used KTM 200 and it is kinda the best of both worlds. It is nice and light but you can still rip on it.
This is a two pater:
1. My first bike came last November, a 1992 yamaha wr250 for $200. The bike was awesome, but it was also a $200 bike, so I quickly grew out of it and picked up an '05 yz250 two stroke. I ended up opting for a two stroke for pretty much all the reasons already stated, and because four strokes were too expensive.
I also went with a 250 because I thought it would be easier to learn on. The logic was that a 250 has a lot more low end power than a 125 and since I do most of my riding in the woods going pretty slow, that seemed like a better way to learn. A 125 gets tons of power, but you have to keeps the rpms pretty high to find it, something that takes a fair amount of skill. With a 250 I can lug around a lot more and still get through sections. If I could have any bike it would probably be a KTM 300. The YZ250 is a little high strung for the woods, but it was the bike I could afford at the time and with a couple hundred dollars, I could dial it in pretty well.
2. There are a lot of similarities between DH bikes and motos but not as many as I had hoped. In a lot of ways a moto is much more stable and easier to ride, but it can also be tricky because there is so much more weight and crazy power. You can't just move around a dirtbike like a DH bike. If you want to move the bike around, you need the throttle to do it. It does however make you more comfortable with speed.
I rode a fair amount through last winter, but ended up parking the bike in May to focus on riding DH bikes and just rode it for the first time last week. Obviously just learning how to ride, I didn't have a ton of confidence on the bike. Unfortunately that transferred over to DH bikes and instead of starting the season faster, I started slower.
ive got an 01 honda xr400. its pretty heavy as trail bikes go but will still get with it and pretty easy bike to ride due to the super good low end(my first dirtbike). echoing what others have said, getting a feeling for going fast more of the time is helpful to DH. i am still learning moto, and i really need to start riding with some people who know what they are doing, i'm just guessing and riding by myself, probably a no no.
an added bonus to my XR is that I have it titled, plated and street legal. it's one of the few true enduro bikes that has the longevity for extended street use. more fun than most street bikes ive owned around town for sure. plating a dirtbike gives what is otherwise just a pretty expensive toy another dimension than having to trailer it everywhere to use it, pretty nice feature imho. 50mpg ridden hard is nice. some of the small bores approach 80mpg.
if you want to go the dual sport(DS) route and i would definitely recomend it, but you will want a 4t. pretty much every manufacturer makes a few that work well, some factory street legal if your state is not friendly to plated dirtbikes. a suzuki DRZ400 is pretty much the DS bike of choice, watercooled, dead nuts reliable, kind of a modern XR400 and can be had factory street legal. yamaha WR400's are a good buy these days and not quite as gnarly as a 450 but still a lot of bike. and you cannot go wrong with an xr400 especially for the beginner.
sorry for going off on the DS tangent but it is worth some thought!
All this moto talk is making me want to hunt down some AHRMA races. I still have my old 125 and it qualifies .
nope. can't say i motocross
^^^ Great points here. The first time I ever rode a dirt bike after 15+ years on mountain bikes, I remember coming up to a big log across the trail and just figuring I'd yank up on the bars to get the front wheel over. Big mistake. I nearly ripped my shoulders out of the socket, the front wheel didn't budge, and I had one of the lamest looking wipe-outs in history. Lesson learned: you need to master throttle and clutch control on a dirt bike to do the same simple things you take for granted on an MTB.
Basically, don't expect to get good on the dirt bike and automatically be much better on the DH bike (unless your name is Doug Henry). Think of dirt biking more as a good training and fitness tool to help toward that end; not a perfect substitute for taking real runs on your DH bike.
Heck no for me man, I've been riding moto for 20 years, if I do anything it will be to get a 300XC or a 450XC.
I hear you on that. I love riding at the MX track, but not on raceday really. It's funny, I did everything I could to find an 08 300XC but they were nowhere to be found in New England. I bought the 250-F and had to drive about 5 hours to pick it up. It's been worth it though. This was my first 4-stroke that I've owned myself and I am pretty impressed with it. Soon its getting bolted to a milling machine..
The 300 is an awesome bike. One of the guys on our team has one. Pulls really good at low RPM. I would love to get a 450XC. I almost pulled the trigger on one already. Once the economy (aka, the place I work) smooths out a bit, I'll probably buy one. Either that or a 450SXF. I can get an '08 model for $6200 out the door tax included.
DW,JP: when do you guys want to come to Michigan to ride? There are thousands of miles of trail and some of the best tracks in the country. JP: let me know when your going to be at your parrent's house and I'll see if I can hook you up with a bike.
Yeah, that's what I've heard about that 300, it sounds like an unbelievable woods motor. Man, I'd love to get out to MI to ride, I'm sure the trails are sweet. It's just a matter of finding time, there sure are no shortage of things to be working on, heck, I should be working right NOW!
Hey guys, please help me understand how come 2T is easier to maintain than 4T ? Cause 4T is only Gas and go and 2T you have parts to be replaced after x hours..
4t have mechanically actuated valves whereas 2t do not really have valves at all in the 4t sense(they do, but it is hard to describe without showing you a motor that is apart). 4t motocross bikes are very high strung motors.
Like someone else mentioned, 4 stroke engines have intake and exhaust valves which need to be checked and or adjusted regularly. If you can't check them yourself and you have to have a shop do it, it can get expensive because it is a part of regular maintenance. But it's easy to learn how to check them, all you need is a good set of feeler gauges. Only occasionally should they actually need to be adjusted, which is also pretty easy (just requires a shim kit and simple math).
My bike ('05 Honda CRF250x) is going on three years and I've only had to adjust one of the exhaust valves, and my bike has seen a lot of hard miles.
Woohoo! Psyched on some moto sessions this week!
Pics of you 125 please!(Or at least tell us what it is)
First race oct 11
PNW has an awesome vintage scene
Washougal is spectacular...
Building up a couple of 77 Maico open classers myself,a 400 and a 440
[sigh]sucks to live in southern Indiana[/sigh]
Washougal is a gorgeous-looking track. Biggest tracks in the state when I was racing was the Trans-AMA course at Puyallup and Straddle Line down in McCleary, WA. My son's wife is from Washougal - - might give me a good excuse to 'wind up' there sometime - - with the bike
OK - - here is is: '71 TS 125 Suzuki with the factory race kit (pre-TMs, RMs and Elsinores). Back in the days when you had to buy and enduro and race-kit it. I have an old Van Tech flat track frame too (that was in my previous pics with a 100cc rotary valve), and used to swap the engine back and forth: Friday and Saturday nights were indoor short track; Sunday was MX.
You might note the replica Maico plastic rear fender.
In action: Same bike in a wheelie contest at the indoor short track at the fairgrounds in Monroe, WA about 1971:
Those were very competitive around here,have a friend who ran top 3 or 4 every week on one,he actually dropped back when he switched to a Rickman-Zundapp.
I have dropped sixty lbs since january with the intent of picking up a vintage 125 to hammer the guts out of once I finish the Maicos(every single component of both Maicos needs to be worked over)
Not a 125 Maico though,price is astro now,and unlike the big Maicos they shifted like crap,too bad,perfect handling and fast as a 73 CR when it was in gear,you had to swap the shifter bar in the trans every other race to get it to stay in gear.To me that leaves out all the sachs engine,zundapp engine,hodaka engines that use a similar trans style.
I'd like to run either a converted TS like yours or a GytKyt Yamaha AT-1 just to be different(Won't happen this coming season,maybe 2010...
A few photos from today's moto session:
Braaaaap! Steeper than it looks, as always!
1 bike length from the top is always a classic spot to run out of steam.
250 4t's are easier to ride, but they're a lot harder to get back on the trail when you gotta do this...
Woot! Time for go number 2!
Can't wait for the next ride. Thanks for the chest protector loan, Curtis.
I ride a 450 and had been riding long before mountain biking. IMO it's tons more fun, but you can't do it everywhere so it's limiting, whereas you can jump on a mtb almost anywhere. Also you need lots of land area to really open up a 450, so a lighter bike is better for slow technical stuff.
Just as a comparison, a jump that scares me on the mtb is like a whoop on the dirtbike. Think DH but increase the scale of everything 10 fold.
Not sure how far south you are in Indiana, however, you should check out Motoland. It's in northern central IN and a really good track. Red Bud, just into Michigan from Indiana, is great too.
My old KTM RFS 250 EXC, great tight woods bike, just to under powered and heavy over all.
Found a steal of a deal on a newer CRF450R, hell of a bike. Motor is crazzy, too crazy for me. That and it will take alot of work to get it set up for woods. I only ride the track because it is really close by. Its cheaper for me to pay to ride here then for gas to the woods... Would love to get on a KTM 400 XC or maby a 200.
I'm looking at woods bikes for some winter practice myself. Probably going to get the license and get a dual sport of some description so I can ride to the trails without hauling a trailer. My dad bought an older yamaha ttr225 recently for like $850. I have been screwing around on but it was sitting for a couple years and has some issues that need to be resolved. Carb's all gummed up etc.
I'm seriously considering buying a cheap 200-250cc Chinabike just because I have no real interest in taking it to an MX track, I just want to ride around in the mountains. Then again I might just buy an old honda and be done with it. The XTs look like toys to me though and the crfs are expensive. Any suggestions? I covet that WR250.
Dual Sport moto riding is great, just not in our area!!! I have a KTM 200sx that I ride more than I mtn bike lately and the idea has crossed my mind many times to sell it and pick up a bigger dual sport ride. However, the fact that every legal and decent riding area in the area requries a 1 to 3 hour drive from the DC area is just to much to ask of a dual sport on highway settings in my opinion.
I'll take loading up my 200 and heading to western Maryland or into the Shenondoah Valley (or even into PA) over flogging a dual sport on the interstate system around here just to get to the trailhead anyday.
Well, my folks actually have a place out in the blue ridge which is where I'd probably keep the bike. The reason I'd want it dual sport is there are all kinds of trails but they're not all connected so you kinda have to be able to get on the road here and there to link up a good ride.
I'm a little worried that the true dual sports like the DRZ400 or the KLR650 are going to be too much bike to muscle around in the woods though.
Seems to me that, depending on the state, you could license an XR 200 for the street. Head and taillight are pretty minimalist but they are there.
Ah, that makes a bit of a difference, though I think you'd find something like a drz or a klr a bit to much of a comprimise. My father, who's 59, bought a drz 400 two years ago to ride a bit with me when I go back and visit him in WV. He's strictly a doubletrack/old logging & fire ride rider though, as he gets a little freaked out in the tight stuff.....personally I think it's largely due to the size of the drz, as it's really a weighty pig and seems to flop around side to side in slow speed turns. He's ridden motorcycles all his life, has almost always had a dual sport in his garage and commutes to work daily on his harley, but he struggles with the drz and trying to ride trails.
I'll admit that it's fun to play around on the drz, as you can tractor around on it everywhere and it feels like a cadillac in the rough, but it's very hard to be aggressive on that bike. The only thing the drz has going for it is it's bombproof reliability. My dad changes the oil in his probably once a month or less and that's the only maintenance he does to it all year long! Though a drz 400 can be made into a fiesty machine with a lot of mod work, it gets expensive quick.
If your looking for a minimalist dual sport approach, I would suggest looking at a Yamaha WR250f or a Honda CRF250x. I've got a bunch of friends in the Winchester/Martinsburg/Hagerstown corridor that ride them and have them plated, which all claim was really easy to do in their respective states.
So we got the carb rebuilt and rejetted and the yamaha my dad bought is actually a lot of fun for running around up on our mountain. I'm really not sure I need much more power than it's got to have a good time and ride the trails I want to ride. I can easily get the front end up in second, though I almost stacked my **** up the other day when I was powering up our back hill didn't realize my front wheel wasn't so much touching the ground. Tried to steer a little bit and had just enough time to think "huh, that's odd, i'm not turning" before the wheel touched down again and sent me for an interesting little ride. Managed to pull it out but it had my heart going fast for sure. Definitely some finer points that don't transfer over from DH, although I actually find I'm pretty comfortable the bike already.
Question, I went to a motocross track for the first time the other day (I took pics of a friend, I did not ride). As I was watching bikes go by and was looking at the ticket office and fences, I noticed a few of the guys, maybe like 5 of the 100 had blue and red clip ons/snap ons plastic pieces on their wheels by their hubs. They were "V" shaped and hooked onto 2 spokes. There were about 6-8 of them on each side of the wheels.
I was just curious what they were, and though they might look sick on my downhill bike.
I got the Moto bug too. My experience thus far has been a couple pit sessions on a friends Cr-250. I wasn't a fan of the inconsistent throttle down low, and then instant slam of exceleration. Other then that it was easy as pie to rip around on.
Therefore I've been looking at 4 strokes, but am not too keen on buying a used one for obvious reasons.
Went to my local shop today and discovered an amazing deal on a left over 2008 RMZ-450. I figure this is way more bike then I need, but if I say off the gas it should ride similarto a 250f, and it only weighs a couple pounds more. Am I retarded for buying such a bike as a first bike? I will save $2500 on that bike over a 09 YZf-250.