Do you want our gov't. making laws based on their moral judgements?

laura · Apr 26, 2003

no, i don't.

Tenchiro · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by LordOpie
So, I submit to you... Do you want our gov't. making laws based on their morals?

They do it all the time, and the general public doesn't seem to care enough to do anything about it usually.

America home of the apathetic.

Tenchiro · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by LordOpie
True. I'm a heterosexual, monogamous guy so it doesn't directly affect me. But some friends -- a homosexual couple -- just adopted an 8 yo kid. It started to occur to me that if this senator had his way, the fathers would go to jail and this kid would go back to being an orphan

All this guy did was state his opinion. It's not like he was proposing some sort of Orwellian police state where homosexuals are rounded up and marched off to the pokey if they don't alter their lifestyle.

He may be a moral elitist, but he has every right to state his opinion

Tenchiro · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by LordOpie
While the Administration has spoken out against Trent Lott's comments and similar situations, they have not commented on this.

Racism and homophobia are very different in the eyes of many people. Everyone knows that you can't pick the color of your skin, but many people think that being gay is a choice that people make.

Tenchiro · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by LordOpie
Is this something you personally believe?

No, but I know people who do. Personally, I don't care either way.

BurlyShirley · Apr 26, 2003

I've been waiting for this thread.

When we, as voters, elect leaders, we are in a way attempting to cast our own morals on the government. Think of the issue of abortion. Its an issue that deeply divides the country, and many voters will not even consider a candidate if he/she is not in agreement on this particular issue. The voting populous elects members that share their moral views, and those views will most certainly reflect in decisions that are made in the government. In a sense, we want govt. officials to express our morals.

This guy 'has a problem with homosexual acts'. Id be willing to bet that many other people in or around his position feel the same way, but just have never said anything publicly about it. In fact, the large Christian presence in our government most definitely has a problem with homosexual acts, and they'd lose alot of voters if they didnt. Most will just choose to remain silent so as not to stir the pot.

"Alternative Lifestlyles" (as lord opie put them) shouldnt even be an issue addressed in government. I personally believe that homosexuality is an abnormality akin to petaphilia, incest and beastiality, but its different in that consenting adults partake. This makes it wholely different in how it is to be treated. I personally dont believe its good for gay couples to raise children, but then again, its not good for the to grow up in foster family rotations either. So im divided there.

What i can say for sure is that moral expression is basically what defines our government. Be that good or bad, it has made our government allow abortions and the death penalty, but disallowed drugs and many other things. Those choices are merely extentions of the morals of the American people.

manimal · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by BurlySurly
I've been waiting for this thread.

When we, as voters, elect leaders, we are in a way attempting to cast our own morals on the government. Think of the issue of abortion. Its an issue that deeply divides the country, and many voters will not even consider a candidate if he/she is not in agreement on this particular issue. The voting populous elects members that share their moral views, and those views will most certainly reflect in decisions that are made in the government. In a sense, we want govt. officials to express our morals.

This guy 'has a problem with homosexual acts'. Id be willing to bet that many other people in or around his position feel the same way, but just have never said anything publicly about it. In fact, the large Christian presence in our government most definitely has a problem with homosexual acts, and they'd lose alot of voters if they didnt. Most will just choose to remain silent so as not to stir the pot.

"Alternative Lifestlyles" (as lord opie put them) shouldnt even be an issue addressed in government. I personally believe that homosexuality is an abnormality akin to petaphilia, incest and beastiality, but its different in that consenting adults partake. This makes it wholely different in how it is to be treated. I personally dont believe its good for gay couples to raise children, but then again, its not good for the to grow up in foster family rotations either. So im divided there.

What i can say for sure is that moral expression is basically what defines our government. Be that good or bad, it has made our government allow abortions and the death penalty, but disallowed drugs and many other things. Those choices are merely extentions of the morals of the American people.

well said, bs. I wonder how long it'll be until chester the molester claims government protection for his "Alternative Lifestyle"?

And yes, I believe that it is a choice. And don't call me ignorant, as many a thread has been discussed on this, it's not a secret that my own father had struggled with homosexuality for many years but he made the choice to get away from that lifestyle. I've grown up around more homosexuals than a San Francisco landlord and I've seen several close family friends die of AIDS after their decision to walk away from "alternative lifestyles". They all had one thing in common when they were close to death. They regreted their "choice" to pursue their temptations.

I don't believe the gay propoganda of "we're born with it, give us special treatment" crap one bit.

Flame away. Where's leatherface anyway....we had some heated debate over this subject last time and I'm feeling feisty today

Silver · Apr 26, 2003

"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual (gay) sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything," Santorum said in the AP interview, which was published Monday.

I agree with this quote wholeheartedly. What is wrong with consensual anything in the privacy of your own home? Where I'd disagree with the Senator is that I think this is a good thing, not a bad one.

This is just like the drug issue, the government has no right to tell me what I can and can't do if I'm not hurting anyone else. It makes a mockery of freedom to legislate consensual "crimes" into illegality.

Three adults of sound mind who are brothers and they want to have sex with each other while high on coke?

Go for it. Not my business. I may not like the idea, but that doesn't mean I have any right to use the law as a club to prohibit it. Hell, I don't like organized religion. I'm not out advocating that the government make Christianity or Islam or Scientology illegal though....

Silver · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by manimal
well said, bs. I wonder how long it'll be until chester the molester claims government protection for his "Alternative Lifestyle"?

Bull**** right back at you. We already have laws that say that you can't sexually exploit a minor. Enforce those, and you're fine. Chester the molester is doing something wrong when he molests anyone underage. The sexes of the parties involved have no bearing on it.

Serial Midget · Apr 26, 2003

I thought we already established that there were no gay mountain bikers and very few bisexual ones... :rolleyes:

On this issue I am very much a libertarian... just ain't none of my business. :monkey:

As for regretting the choices people make in life... more people die of lung cancer and obesiety than die of aids... I am sure plenty of those people regret their decisions.

Being gay, as far as I know, does not automatically lead to death by aids.

Tenchiro · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by manimal
And yes, I believe that it is a choice. And don't call me ignorant, as many a thread has been discussed on this, it's not a secret that my own father had struggled with homosexuality for many years but he made the choice to get away from that lifestyle. I've grown up around more homosexuals than a San Francisco landlord and I've seen several close family friends die of AIDS after their decision to walk away from "alternative lifestyles". They all had one thing in common when they were close to death. They regreted their "choice" to pursue their temptations.

Who cares if it is a choice or not, it's their life and if they're not hurting anyone let them live it the way they want. Anyone can get HIV/AIDS, not just gay people. The same with any virus.

There are plenty of straight people who choose a lifestyle that exposes them to HIV, just as there are as many gay people who choose not to risk exposure.

I don't beleive that they should have any more or less rights as anyone else. Sexual preference should be treated as a non-issue.

manimal · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by Serial Midget
I thought we already established that there were no gay mountain bikers and very few bisexual ones...

Being gay, as far as I know, does not automatically lead to death by aids.

sorry, didn't mean to imply that gay=aids, just that some of the most truthful and heartfelt talks i've had with people happen to be while they were dying. something about impending death makes people answer questions like, "did you have any control over your past decisions or was it simply a part of your genetics?", in a truthful and candid manor.

Serial Midget · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by manimal
sorry, didn't mean to imply that gay=aids, just that some of the most truthful and heartfelt talks i've had with people happen to be while they were dying. something about impending death makes people answer questions like, "did you have any control over your past decisions or was it simply a part of your genetics?", in a truthful and candid manor.

OMG... why would you ask these questions of a dying person??? You must be the reaper,judge and jury... :eek:

manimal · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by Serial Midget
OMG... why would you ask these questions of a dying person??? You must be the reaper,judge and jury...

no!! you got it all wrong. these were friends and they were telling me their regrets and whatnot. the question wasn't neccesarily asked verbatim, just brought up in our conversations. i was actually doing a story about them and they had asked me to be frank with them. these men were no longer practicing homosexuals and they were mainly giving me the inside scoop on the "alternative lifesyle" and the misjudgements that the majority of christians and others have towards them, as well as the unbelievable propoganda machine backing the gay rights movement.

LoboDelFuego · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by manimal
the unbelievable propoganda machine backing the gay rights movement.

Though I think everyone should have equal rights unless they commit a crime (real crimes, like murder, not oral sex) I do sometimes think that gay people should shut the hell up. If you're just like everyone else, then stop complaining. You don't see other people walking down the streets with signs that loudly proclaim what they are. (e.g. I AM A BLACK PERSON AND MY SKIN CELLS CONATIN MORE MELANIN THAN THE SKIN CELLS OF A WHITE, ASIAN, OR HISPANIC PERSON.)

Group politics are like tightly packed marbles on a table. If you keep still, nobody gets hurt or anoyed at anybody else. If you protest and march and jump around, everyone else starts to move and people get jumpy and fall of the table. OK maybe that wasn't a very good analogy.

Manimal: Even if homosexuals arent born that way (they may be, or it may be a combination of psychological events, or just a personal choice), that doesn't mean that they have less "argument" than a black person, because black people ar just born black. You still shouldn't have to face criticism of the way you live your life, especially if it doesnt harm individuals or society. We need more calm gay people. They keep the population down and don't cause problems.

manimal · Apr 26, 2003

Originally posted by LoboDelFuego
Though I think everyone should have equal rights unless they commit a crime (real crimes, like murder, not oral sex) I do sometimes think that gay people should shut the hell up. If you're just like everyone else, then stop complaining. You don't see other people walking down the streets with signs that loudly proclaim what they are. (e.g. I AM A BLACK PERSON AND MY SKIN CELLS CONATIN MORE MELANIN THAN THE SKIN CELLS OF A WHITE, ASIAN, OR HISPANIC PERSON.)

Group politics are like tightly packed marbles on a table. If you keep still, nobody gets hurt or anoyed at anybody else. If you protest and march and jump around, everyone else starts to move and people get jumpy and fall of the table. OK maybe that wasn't a very good analogy.

Manimal: Even if homosexuals arent born that way (they may be, or it may be a combination of psychological events, or just a personal choice), that doesn't mean that they have less "argument" than a black person, because black people ar just born black. You still shouldn't have to face criticism of the way you live your life, especially if it doesnt harm individuals or society. We need more calm gay people. They keep the population down and don't cause problems.

wow, i actually agree with you on something!! :eek:

but just to add to your last paragraph. true, they shouldn't have to face criticism for their lifestyle, however, when they force their lifestyle into public arenas and bark at those who would oppose them with militant slogans about diversity and equality, that's when i have a problem. I'm all about Straight Pride, but you don't see me out there bullying textbook companies and government legislatures about MY agenda and MY rights.

i'm assuming that those who believe that everyone should be allowed to do whatever they please as long as it's ok for them, also think that places like amsterdam are much more "evolved" than us americans because they allow just about anything. am i way off on that one?

Tenchiro · Apr 26, 2003

All I know is that I don't want to catch the gay. :monkey:

johnbryanpeters · Apr 26, 2003

"Do you want our gov't. making laws based on their moral judgements?"

In this case, no.

LoboDelFuego · Apr 27, 2003

Originally posted by LordOpie
In what case would you like the gov't. to make laws based on morals?

Well essentially, all of our laws are based on morals. For example, its is just as much of a crime to steal $5 from a homeless person as it is to steal $5 from Bill Gates. Why? Because stealing in and of itself is a "bad thing." It doesn't matter that the homeless person will probably starve and die, and that Bill Gates couldn't care less if you stole $500.

So, I think we should make laws based on morals only when they are human morals, not religious or ethnic ones. Every culture in the world is against murder (any cultures that were pro-murder would cease to exist rather quickly). Therefore, murder is a rime and illegal. Thats a human moral that everyone agrees with. The fact that such laws can be justified using other means (destruction of property, etc.) only bolsters thier position, the real cause for the law is a universally acepted human principle.

ohio · Apr 27, 2003

First, I can't stand the whole idea of retractions. That whole song and dance makes me nauseous, no matter which side is doing it. Obviously this guy believes what he said... why would some "retraction" change that? Have some fvcking spine and stand by your words. Your not winning any votes back with the retraction, and we DO elect people for their morals.

And yes, I do believe that the government should base its laws on morals... However, people automatically associate the word "morals" with traditional (Christian, right-wing) beliefs/values. Morals are not etched in stone, and one person's should be different than the next person's. My personal beliefs are that it is IMMORAL to persecute/discrimate/outlaw acts between consenting adults. I will try to elect politicians with similar morals, and I expect them to act on those beliefs.

What are we asking our politicians to do, if not apply moral standards - whether in economics, international affairs, or our daily lives?

BurlyShirley · Apr 27, 2003

Originally posted by ohio
First, I can't stand the whole idea of retractions. That whole song and dance makes me nauseous, no matter which side is doing it. Obviously this guy believes what he said... why would some "retraction" change that? Have some fvcking spine and stand by your words. Your not winning any votes back with the retraction, and we DO elect people for their morals.

And yes, I do believe that the government should base its laws on morals... However, people automatically associate the word "morals" with traditional (Christian, right-wing) beliefs/values. Morals are not etched in stone, and one person's should be different than the next person's. My personal beliefs are that it is IMMORAL to persecute/discrimate/outlaw acts between consenting adults. I will try to elect politicians with similar morals, and I expect them to act on those beliefs.

What are we asking our politicians to do, if not apply moral standards - whether in economics, international affairs, or our daily lives?

Wait a second....are you agreeing with me Ohio?

ohio · Apr 27, 2003

Originally posted by BurlySurly
Wait a second....are you agreeing with me Ohio?

You know, you and I aren't so different... except that we're polar opposites.

shocktower · Apr 29, 2003

Those morons ,are a bunch of hypocrits ( don`t do as I do but do as I say :rolleyes:

),I really do`nt trust polititions (sp?)

fluff · Apr 30, 2003

Originally posted by manimal
sorry, didn't mean to imply that gay=aids, just that some of the most truthful and heartfelt talks i've had with people happen to be while they were dying. something about impending death makes people answer questions like, "did you have any control over your past decisions or was it simply a part of your genetics?", in a truthful and candid manor.

Having a choice over your actions is clearly true. Whether your urges are genetically based or a choice is a different question.

So therefore being gay may not be a choice, sleeping with another consenting adult clearly is. Both gay and straight people can live promiscuis lifestyles and both can get aids (as could someone who has never had sex in their lives).

fluff · Apr 30, 2003

Originally posted by LordOpie
I started this topic to generate a general discussion, not just about alternative lifestyles. So...

In what case would you like the gov't. to make laws based on morals?

What other basis can they make laws on? The key is that the electorate should empower people whose moral values reflect those of the majority of the populace, but can also account for the needs of the minorities as necessary.

The problem lies in the electoral system, quit electing people because they look/sound good or simply because they are affiliated to one of two major political parties. If you only have a (realistic) choice between two candidates then you will end up with quite a few politicians who have non-representative moral viewpoints in some areas.

Of course electoral reform is a bit tricky..

Thepagoda · May 1, 2003

I personally think that morality should be a matter of perception rather than a matter of oppression. Of course the problem then becomes that there are so many differing perceptions out there that somehow everybody has to compromise. but being that this country was built on compromise, it shouldn't be too big of a deal. except when you can't or won't be heard. I think that referring to the group politics as a tighly packed marbles might be more aptly stated as tightly stacked marbles. if thew ones at the bottom never move, they'll always be hidden by the ones above them. At some point it does get out of control, and some lib movements have taken to using the guilt of not being PC and turned it into a weapon. As I do not feel that I am oppressed (except that in being with the majority I have no idividuality), I don't really know where the line should be drawn. but I don't think that anybody really does.

As for the topic of the government meddling in the morals of the citizens of this country, I am very much opposed to that Idea. once that starts happening things like Freedom of religion begin to slip. The whole reason that there are white people on this continent is that they believed in different morals in the first place. Maybe we should go christian theocratic, and send all others to a colony on mars...

This isn't about gays and straight people, its more about the status quo and that which isn't. The United States is a remarkable country. Americans will tell you about the terrible oppressions of Stalin, Hitler and Saddam (touchy here, these were most atrocious acts) while they pump gas at $1.69 a gallon and pay with the face of the man responsible for the most successful genocide (or "ethnic cleansing" if you'd prefer) in history. If you are not familiar with the actions of President Jackson, well that's something else. Something else that they will do that I find interesting is say that the government ought to help to enforce morals, all the while lambasting Clinton for a blow job. Even worse, they are willing to shell out millions of dollars for a Star report when our schools could really have used a shot in the arm.

As for voting officials in, that's almost a joke. Take the last presidential election for example. I voted for Gore, not because I really liked Gore (I actually think the guy's a putz), but because I had to pick him or Bush, and I certainly wasn't voting for Bush. there's a problem. The only people that really feel like they are represented in government have enought to lobby officials. Sure I voted, but I don't feel like I'm represented

Fvck it dude, lets go bowling.

Do you want our gov't. making laws based on their moral judgements?

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